TDF climbers

bob watkinson [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

I notice with a lot of them when they climb their hands look very relaxed on
the tops of the bars. With me I tend to wrap my hands around and under the
hoods and pull with my arms as I push with my legs. Have I got a dodgy
technique?

I think that if you are pulling on the bars, you're probably in too high
a gear since you are essentially sprinting while seated. After being
told of this, I started practising cycling with little pressure on the
bars and seeing how hard I could push with just my legs. The answer: Far
more than I thought. If your arms are relaxed, you should use a little
less energy and your ribcage will be free-er (Thus making breathing
easier.)

Jon

I notice with a lot of them when they climb their hands look very relaxed on
the tops of the bars. With me I tend to wrap my hands around and under the
hoods and pull with my arms as I push with my legs. Have I got a dodgy
technique?

Rgds, Bob

Jon Senior said:

bob watkinson [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

I notice with a lot of them when they climb their hands look very
relaxed on the tops of the bars. With me I tend to wrap my hands
around and under the hoods and pull with my arms as I push with my
legs. Have I got a dodgy technique?

I think that if you are pulling on the bars, you're probably in too
high
a gear since you are essentially sprinting while seated. After being
told of this, I started practising cycling with little pressure on the
bars and seeing how hard I could push with just my legs. The answer:
Far
more than I thought. If your arms are relaxed, you should use a little
less energy and your ribcage will be free-er (Thus making breathing
easier.)

Jon

Try by not holding the bars. Curl your finger so the ends touch your palm.
Rest your finger nails on the top of the bar. Alternatively slot your first
two fingers over the brake hood instead of your thumb. Really hard to pull
like this and encourages smooth pedalling and a lower gear. This in turns
helps to conserve energy.

Remember I am not a climber. I need all the help I can get.

MSeries wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Alternatively slot your first two fingers over the brake hood instead of

your

Quoted message said:

thumb. Really hard to pull like this and encourages smooth pedalling

At last! You've made my night (I'm easily satisified). Someone else who
rides like this! My riding buddy can't believe I find it more comfortable.
I find it helps to keep my arms 'parallel' too. If I ride with my thumb
over the hoods, I tend to start looking a bit like Popeye - sort of arms
akimbo.

Allan.
~~~
http://www.bikeit.eclipse.co.uk/index.htm
Italian Cycle tour reports and the home of...
Cycling Before Lycra

Allan Nelson said:

MSeries wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Alternatively slot your first two fingers over the brake hood
instead of your thumb. Really hard to pull like this and encourages
smooth pedalling

At last! You've made my night (I'm easily satisified). Someone else
who rides like this! My riding buddy can't believe I find it more
comfortable. I find it helps to keep my arms 'parallel' too. If I
ride with my thumb over the hoods, I tend to start looking a bit like
Popeye - sort of arms akimbo.

Allan.
~~~
http://www.bikeit.eclipse.co.uk/index.htm
Italian Cycle tour reports and the home of...
Cycling Before Lycra

I remember seeing a photo in a magazine of Neil Stephens in this position, I
thought I'll try that. I find it very comfortable as my palms are on the
bars and not hanging off

In article <[email hidden]>, Jon Senior
<jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> says...

Quoted message said:

bob watkinson [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

I notice with a lot of them when they climb their hands look very relaxed on
the tops of the bars. With me I tend to wrap my hands around and under the
hoods and pull with my arms as I push with my legs. Have I got a dodgy
technique?

I think that if you are pulling on the bars, you're probably in too high
a gear since you are essentially sprinting while seated. After being
told of this, I started practising cycling with little pressure on the
bars and seeing how hard I could push with just my legs. The answer: Far
more than I thought. If your arms are relaxed, you should use a little
less energy and your ribcage will be free-er (Thus making breathing
easier.)

Jon

pulling on the bars is always bad. You need to spin. If a little extra
umph is required, then you need to push with your sholders against the
seat.
--
..paul

If at first you don't succeed...
Skydiving is probably not the sport for you.

Quoted message said:

I notice with a lot of them when they climb their hands look very relaxed on
the tops of the bars. With me I tend to wrap my hands around and under the
hoods and pull with my arms as I push with my legs. Have I got a dodgy
technique?

There's two ways to climb a hill.

You can sprint up it, or you can climb up it.

Sprinting only works for short hills, because you can only sprint for a
short time.

Sprinting up hill is typically performed out of the saddle, using a high
gear, with a *very* firm handlebar grip. This can be a classic sprint
(very high cadence) or a "slow" sprint, with a much lower cadence but
still in a high gear.

Climbing uses a very low gear and a high cadence and is very aerobic. I
find this easier done in the saddle, since I find high cadence awkward
when out of the saddle; however, out of the saddle climbing has the
major advantage of bringing the body weight well forward, which helps a
great deal. There is no particular need for a very firm handlebar grip,
because the legs are pushing downwards into a gear that is sufficiently
low to permit a high cadence which means that it's not hard to push.

I in fact use TT handlebars sans tri-bars on my bike, simply because
they're superb for climbing, since they permit me to come *very* far
forward out of the saddle; it is much easier to "push" yourself up a
hill, with your weight in front and the bike behind, than it is to
"pull" yourself up a hill, with your weight behind and the bike in
front; gravity favours you in the downstroke the first position by
applying your full body weight to the pedal, but is far less in your
favour in the second position, since you only have your foot weight
being applied to the pedal (consider a recumbent).

--
Callas

paul [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

pulling on the bars is always bad. You need to spin. If a little extra
umph is required, then you need to push with your sholders against the
seat.

He he. But we're not all lying down on the job you know!

The bent is currently undergoing another modification. I have an extra
set of bar ends which I plan to use to bring the bars further back. This
will be combined with a new seat (When I buy the sheet of 4mm ply and
start bending wood!) to hopefully increase both comfort and
aerodynamics.

I have noticed high speed drag (>25mph) which I can only attribute to
the relatively upright position of the seat. I'm hoping that if I can
eliminate this I'll manage to exceed 40mph on the bent.

Jon

many thanks guys. maybe I need a smaller granny ring or maybe I'm just
getting old

"Callas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I notice with a lot of them when they climb their hands look very

relaxed on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the tops of the bars. With me I tend to wrap my hands around and under

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hoods and pull with my arms as I push with my legs. Have I got a dodgy
technique?

There's two ways to climb a hill.

You can sprint up it, or you can climb up it.

Sprinting only works for short hills, because you can only sprint for a
short time.

Sprinting up hill is typically performed out of the saddle, using a high
gear, with a *very* firm handlebar grip. This can be a classic sprint
(very high cadence) or a "slow" sprint, with a much lower cadence but
still in a high gear.

Climbing uses a very low gear and a high cadence and is very aerobic. I
find this easier done in the saddle, since I find high cadence awkward
when out of the saddle; however, out of the saddle climbing has the
major advantage of bringing the body weight well forward, which helps a
great deal. There is no particular need for a very firm handlebar grip,
because the legs are pushing downwards into a gear that is sufficiently
low to permit a high cadence which means that it's not hard to push.

I in fact use TT handlebars sans tri-bars on my bike, simply because
they're superb for climbing, since they permit me to come *very* far
forward out of the saddle; it is much easier to "push" yourself up a
hill, with your weight in front and the bike behind, than it is to
"pull" yourself up a hill, with your weight behind and the bike in
front; gravity favours you in the downstroke the first position by
applying your full body weight to the pedal, but is far less in your
favour in the second position, since you only have your foot weight
being applied to the pedal (consider a recumbent).

--
Callas

Jon Senior <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

paul [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

pulling on the bars is always bad. You need to spin. If a little extra
umph is required, then you need to push with your sholders against the
seat.

He he. But we're not all lying down on the job you know!

The bent is currently undergoing another modification. I have an extra
set of bar ends which I plan to use to bring the bars further back. This
will be combined with a new seat (When I buy the sheet of 4mm ply and
start bending wood!) to hopefully increase both comfort and
aerodynamics.

I have noticed high speed drag (>25mph) which I can only attribute to
the relatively upright position of the seat. I'm hoping that if I can
eliminate this I'll manage to exceed 40mph on the bent.

Jon

You'll find it hard to bend 4mm ply. Better off getting several pieces
of thinner, say 1mm that will bend then laminating them over a former
to the required shape.

MSeries said:

bob watkinson wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I notice with a lot of them when they climb their hands look very
relaxed on the tops of the bars. With me I tend to wrap my hands
around and under the hoods and pull with my arms as I push with my
legs. Have I got a dodgy technique?

Rgds, Bob

Yes. I read a piece by Britains best climber, Robert Millar and he
said one should rest the hands on the bars, not pull them.

Interesting. I shall cut this out and keep it, as inability to pull on the
bars is often cited as one of the reasons why "recumbents can't climb".

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================

"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
The answer: Far

Quoted message said:

more than I thought. If your arms are relaxed, you should use a little
less energy and your ribcage will be free-er (Thus making breathing
easier.)

I am currently reading a book about how to improve your road racing
techniques and it advises to put your hands on the top of the bars close to
the stem when climbing to promote an upright posture to aid breathing.
See:

http://qurl.net/2V

--
Simon M.

Dave Larrington <[email hidden]> wrote:

: Interesting. I shall cut this out and keep it, as inability to pull on the
: bars is often cited as one of the reasons why "recumbents can't climb".

It's not about pulling up on the bars, its the inability to get out of the
saddle. That and the weight.

On a short climb, it's the former, and a very long climb the latter. Even
on long climbs however riders get out of the saddle to change the muscle
groups being used.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

Simon Mason <[email hidden]> wrote:

: I am currently reading a book about how to improve your road racing
: techniques and it advises to put your hands on the top of the bars close to
: the stem when climbing to promote an upright posture to aid breathing.

Works for me. Alternate with some standing to use different muscles.

For short climbs, leave it in a big gear, get out of the saddle and
blast over. Start with railway bridges and work up.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

imho...
the above posts are correct that you shouldn't be pulling on the bars,
although a grasp of the hoods if fine.

There are two reasons to get out of the saddle climbing.
1. To use a different mix of muscle groups and reduce fatigue.
2. To increase the turning force around the pedal stroke. Think about your
limbs forming an X shape. The legs at the bottom, the arms at the top.
Muscle tension on each pedal stroke is conducted along the straight part of
the X. If you don't grasp the hood then you must rely on your weight to
counterbalance the increased tension around the pedal stroke. You can ride
by resting on the hoods (I've done it. It works) but you can't tackle the
really strenuous climbs without tension through your torso. As well as the
tension through the X, peddling out of the saddle allows you to rock the
bike and bring the pedal upwards as the stroke goes downwards.

Incidentally, I was watching Virenque climbing yesterday. You'll notice how
this pelvis also rotates with the pedal stroke. Using the torso is a very
good way to increase the power output.

ps. just a thought - have you checked that your top tube isn't too long?
proper fitting gives a more relaxed posture on the bike

"bob watkinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I notice with a lot of them when they climb their hands look very relaxed

on

Quoted message said:

the tops of the bars. With me I tend to wrap my hands around and under the
hoods and pull with my arms as I push with my legs. Have I got a dodgy
technique?

Rgds, Bob

Will H:

Quoted message said:

There are two reasons to get out of the saddle climbing.
1. To use a different mix of muscle groups and reduce fatigue.
2. To increase the turning force around the pedal stroke.

I could add a third reason based on a weird thing that happened to me a week
or so ago, but I'm not quite sure how I did it, I haven't been able to
replicate it, and I'm not really sure I understand what happened.

It was on a short but fairly steep climb. As I approached the top, I got out
of the saddle with the intention of getting more force into the pedals as
per number 2 above. But I actually found myself in some kind of bizarre
state of climbing nirvana where I was (comfortably) balancing my full
bodyweight on the handlebars via my arms while my feet were floating round
at a good cadence without any sensation of excessive effort - I think
perhaps I /was/ putting more force into the pedalling but on the upstroke
rather than the downstroke, counterbalanced by the downforce of my weight on
the bars (normally I can only pull on the upstroke if I'm countering it with
my weight on the saddle).

Does any of this make any sense?

d.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The bent is currently undergoing another modification. I have an extra
set of bar ends which I plan to use to bring the bars further back. This
will be combined with a new seat (When I buy the sheet of 4mm ply and
start bending wood!) to hopefully increase both comfort and
aerodynamics.

I have noticed high speed drag (>25mph) which I can only attribute to
the relatively upright position of the seat. I'm hoping that if I can
eliminate this I'll manage to exceed 40mph on the bent.

Jon

You'll find it hard to bend 4mm ply. Better off getting several pieces
of thinner, say 1mm that will bend then laminating them over a former
to the required shape.

This caught my eye too. I've been wondering how I'm going to sort out
a seat for my home made bent for a while, and have come to the
conclusion that a basic ply frame[two bits and a hindge!] is going to
be the easiest way to go initially. Then Jon starts talking about
bending 4mm ply....I can only visualize cast-iron jigs and clamps
right now :-)

Spill them beans!

Garry

garryb59 [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

=20

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The bent is currently undergoing another modification. I have an extra=

=20

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

set of bar ends which I plan to use to bring the bars further back. Th=

is=20

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will be combined with a new seat (When I buy the sheet of 4mm ply and=

=20

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

start bending wood!) to hopefully increase both comfort and=20
aerodynamics.
=20
I have noticed high speed drag (>25mph) which I can only attribute to=

=20

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the relatively upright position of the seat. I'm hoping that if I can=

=20

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

eliminate this I'll manage to exceed 40mph on the bent.
=20
Jon

You'll find it hard to bend 4mm ply. Better off getting several pieces
of thinner, say 1mm that will bend then laminating them over a former
to the required shape.

=20
This caught my eye too. I've been wondering how I'm going to sort out
a seat for my home made bent for a while, and have come to the
conclusion that a basic ply frame[two bits and a hindge!] is going to
be the easiest way to go initially. Then Jon starts talking about
bending 4mm ply....I can only visualize cast-iron jigs and clamps
right now :-)
=20
Spill them beans!

Cast iron jigs it is! (Sort of) I plan to cut a rectangle slightly=20
larger than the size I want. This will be soaked in warm water overnight=20
(This is easier to arrange than steaming!) then either moulded with a=20
male / female MDF mould (Two identical moulds about 20mm thick should=20
suffice) and clamped, or screwed onto a steel frame to hold the shape.=20
When the wood has dried, I will attach a pair of "ribs" to the back of=20
it to strengthen it.

I was considering laminating "bending plywood" but our local wood=20
stockist charges =A333 + VAT for a sheet. Apparently, two layers of this=20
laminated makes a very good seat.

Given the performance of my current seat (Bends under load above the=20
back support) I've come to the conclusion that the ribs are essential.

I did see a very cool plan for using 1.5mm Aluminium to make a seat=20
(Also ribbed) which looks quite classy, but may well be a little=20
uncomfortable. Besides which a smaller (1200mm x 800mm) sheet of=20
galvanised Aluminium was priced about the same as the full sheet of=20
bendy board! Maybe if I ever build a low-racer, I'll consider it.

I hoping to attack the seat problem over the weekend or next week and=20
will of course keep you all informed.

Jon

Arthur Clune [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

For short climbs, leave it in a big gear, get out of the saddle and
blast over. Start with railway bridges and work up.

Feels good, doesn't it?

Jon