OT 4x4's

MartinM said:

In tonight's Standard:
Ken Livingstone is looking into doubling theforeigntion charge to £10
for 4x4 drivers (idiots in Ken's words) to try to reduce the toxic
emissions from these vehicles.

Not that I live anywhere near London, but

Does that apply to big 4x4s, or any vehicle with a 4 wheel transmission
system? Some execmobiles like Vauxhalls, and even the Fiat Panda IIRC, have
one.

Surely it would be better done on something like physical size or tonnage
than the fine details of the transmission system. I wonder if front wheel
drives ought to pay less than rear wheel drives for better handling, less
weight of drive shaft, and just that Jeremy Clarkson seems to hate them for
some reason.

What would happen if someone made a 4 wheel electric drive vehicle. Wasn't
there some foreign car on Top Gear a month or so ago that had a motor
driving the rear wheels in electrical mode, and the engine drove the front
in petrol mode? I suppose that would only be 2 wheel drive at a time unless
it ran them both together.

Getting back to bikes, a friend of mine has bought an electrically assisted
one, which as supplied was much like an electric motorbike with big battery
and 180W motor. He's upgraded the drive train to give a useful working gear
(bigger chain wheel), as it was very low as supplied, and is looking at a
lighter battery, and a 250W motor - but isn't there a wattage where these
things suddenly become motorbikes, and would presumably face congestion
charging (though he's no in London either) and other taxes?

Also, admitedly, if congestion charging is to reduce congestion, then they'd
probably be right charging trike owners, though cars do manage to get past
reasonably well. We act like slow moving traffic calming at times ;-) That
said - if it was suggested then I'd not be happy, especially as the trike
does fit in the cycle lanes, and I tend to use more back road routes, and
even some of our new dedicated cycle paths.

- Richard

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard dot Corfield at ntlworld dot com
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ Except in the Twilight Zone.

MartinM said:

In tonight's Standard:
Ken Livingstone is looking into doubling the congestion charge to £10
for 4x4 drivers (idiots in Ken's words) to try to reduce the toxic
emissions from these vehicles.

We have a 4x4. We live in the countryside, in the middle of nowhere, and
use Biodiesel for it, so it's carbon neutral. Not all 4x4 owners are
members of the urban school-run brigade.

We also use our bikes for journeys of less than five or six miles (well,
often much more for me).

With advances in technology, one hopes for a future where type of
vehicle and length of journey might be combined to make 1 mile 4x4
journeys ridiculously expensive.

--
Chris

On 13 Jul 2004 13:39:17 -0700, [email hidden] (MartinM) wrote in
message <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Ken Livingstone is looking into doubling the congestion charge to £10
for 4x4 drivers (idiots in Ken's words) to try to reduce the toxic
emissions from these vehicles.

To reduce the toxic emissions from 4x4 drivers, burn down the Daily
Mail offices ;-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Succorso said:

With advances in technology, one hopes for a future where type of
vehicle and length of journey might be combined to make 1 mile 4x4
journeys ridiculously expensive.

We're getting there with the massive topic shift, and Burley Trailer, which
means we can carry loads of shopping over shortish distances. Only problem
is that as shown at
http://littondale.dyndns.org/misc/Burley_Towing_Alignment.jpg and
http://littondale.dyndns.org/misc/Burley_Flatbed_Behind_ICE_XL.jpg
it rides a bit off center, so I have to ride out from the kerb to avoid
scraping the left wheel.

- Richard

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard dot Corfield at ntlworld dot com
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ Except in the Twilight Zone.

Richard Corfield said:

isn't there a wattage where these things suddenly become
motorbikes

Their maximum speed is restricted to 15mph so that they will not qualify as
motor vehicles. Terrible things; to be avoided.

Simonb said:

Their maximum speed is restricted to 15mph so that they will not qualify
as motor vehicles. Terrible things; to be avoided.

I briefly considered the practicality of taking a motorised 20" wheel and
putting it into the back of the trike making a motorised deck chair, though
the thought didn't last that long. It wouldn't be the same, and would be
very heavy when the battery went flat.

- Richard :-)

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard dot Corfield at ntlworld dot com
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ Except in the Twilight Zone.

Quoted message said:

Ken Livingstone is looking into doubling the congestion charge to £10
for 4x4 drivers (idiots in Ken's words) to try to reduce the toxic
emissions from these vehicles.

Ideally he'd base the charge on vehicle emissions then, perhaps exempting
commercial vehicles. Problem with that is it'll hit a lot of older cars
too. Of course if he's more concerned about the road space taken up then
he might base it on the length of vehicles. That might annoy drivers of
'executive' cars tho, as they're probably longer.

Richard Corfield said:

MartinM said:

In tonight's Standard:
Ken Livingstone is looking into doubling theforeigntion charge to £10
for 4x4 drivers (idiots in Ken's words) to try to reduce the toxic
emissions from these vehicles.

Not that I live anywhere near London, but

Does that apply to big 4x4s, or any vehicle with a 4 wheel transmission
system? Some execmobiles like Vauxhalls, and even the Fiat Panda IIRC, have
one.

YDRC - there are 4wd versions of the panda - I think some of them even
only have 3 doors.

Quoted message said:

Surely it would be better done on something like physical size or
tonnage
than the fine details of the transmission system. I wonder if front
wheel drives ought to pay less than rear wheel drives for better
handling, less weight of drive shaft, and just that Jeremy Clarkson
seems to hate them for some reason.

What would happen if someone made a 4 wheel electric drive vehicle.
Wasn't
there some foreign car on Top Gear a month or so ago that had a motor
driving the rear wheels in electrical mode, and the engine drove the
front in petrol mode? I suppose that would only be 2 wheel drive at a
time unless it ran them both together.

Conversely, how long before someone builds a 2wd hummer-lookalike?!
Perhaps the congestion charge should be based on tonnage / bonnet height
rather than the transmission.

Quoted message said:

Getting back to bikes, a friend of mine has bought an electrically assisted
one, which as supplied was much like an electric motorbike with big battery
and 180W motor. He's upgraded the drive train to give a useful working gear
(bigger chain wheel), as it was very low as supplied, and is looking at a
lighter battery, and a 250W motor - but isn't there a wattage where these
things suddenly become motorbikes, and would presumably face congestion
charging (though he's no in London either) and other taxes?

Also, admitedly, if congestion charging is to reduce congestion, then they'd
probably be right charging trike owners, though cars do manage to get past
reasonably well. We act like slow moving traffic calming at times ;-) That
said - if it was suggested then I'd not be happy, especially as the trike
does fit in the cycle lanes, and I tend to use more back road routes, and
even some of our new dedicated cycle paths.

At least you don't belch fumes out when you're waiting for the lights to
change.

AC

anonymous coward said:

Richard Corfield said:

MartinM wrote:

there some foreign car on Top Gear a month or so ago that had a motor
driving the rear wheels in electrical mode, and the engine drove the
front in petrol mode? I suppose that would only be 2 wheel drive at a
time unless it ran them both together.

Conversely, how long before someone builds a 2wd hummer-lookalike?!
Perhaps the congestion charge should be based on tonnage / bonnet
height rather than the transmission.

A fair few of the 4WDs are switchable 4WD, meaning that they'll often be in
RWD mode rather than 4WD. I saw one facing the wrong way on a dual
carriageway, looking like he'd had an interesting time going round the wet
roundabout to get where he was 🙂. Of course, a RWD 2 tonne vehicle with
wallowy suspension and a high CoG is a bloody stupid idea for most drivers.

Richard Corfield said:

MartinM said:

In tonight's Standard:
Ken Livingstone is looking into doubling theforeigntion charge to £10
for 4x4 drivers (idiots in Ken's words) to try to reduce the toxic
emissions from these vehicles.

Not that I live anywhere near London, but

Does that apply to big 4x4s, or any vehicle with a 4 wheel
transmission system? Some execmobiles like Vauxhalls, and even the
Fiat Panda IIRC, have one.

Surely it would be better done on something like physical size or
tonnage than the fine details of the transmission system. I wonder if
front wheel drives ought to pay less than rear wheel drives for
better handling, less weight of drive shaft, and just that Jeremy
Clarkson seems to hate them for some reason.

FWD cars don't handle better than RWD cars. It's not physically possible for
them. That said, Joe Numpty should be kept in FWD cars so that he goes off
the road forwards rather than backwards when he overcooks it on a rainy /
icy day.

"Simonb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Richard Corfield said:

isn't there a wattage where these things suddenly become
motorbikes

To Richard: Yes (well, mopeds), 250W average power. But you're allowed more
peak power. How much more is a bit of a grey area...
Oh and you're not allowed to have the motor running without pedalling.
Which is probably a good idea anyway, as stalled motors slurp a lot of
current.
Aren't all electric vehicles exempt from congestion charging?

Quoted message said:

Their maximum speed is restricted to 15mph so that they will not qualify

as

Quoted message said:

motor vehicles. Terrible things; to be avoided.

That's overstating it a bit. You can go faster than 15mph if you pedal.
They're more useful for flattening out hills.
It would be nice if we were allowed 750W like in the US... That's one
decent thing GWB signed, I suppose...

Andrew.

"Mark Thompson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ideally he'd base the charge on vehicle emissions then, perhaps exempting
commercial vehicles. Problem with that is it'll hit a lot of older cars
too. Of course if he's more concerned about the road space taken up then
he might base it on the length of vehicles. That might annoy drivers of
'executive' cars tho, as they're probably longer.

How about volume per occupant? (And f#%k the executives)
Of course, many buses would do rather badly on this... And taxis. Good
thing they're exempt, then...

Andrew.

anonymous coward <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Conversely, how long before someone builds a 2wd hummer-lookalike?!
Perhaps the congestion charge should be based on tonnage / bonnet height
rather than the transmission.

Apparently you can get them now. There's at least one driving around here
that is just a Hummer look-a-like body kit stuck on top of some two wheel
drive ute chassis. Why go to the bother of widening you car by a foot or so
and making it look bloody awful?

Graeme

Richard Corfield <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

http://littondale.dyndns.org/misc/Burley_Flatbed_Behind_ICE_XL.jpg

That doesn't look as if the arm was even designed to make it ride on centre
as it seems to meet the centre line of the trailer. Is the "normal bike"
hitch some funny design to compensate for this?

Graeme

Graeme said:

Richard Corfield <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

http://littondale.dyndns.org/misc/Burley_Flatbed_Behind_ICE_XL.jpg

That doesn't look as if the arm was even designed to make it ride on
centre as it seems to meet the centre line of the trailer. Is the "normal
bike" hitch some funny design to compensate for this?

It may be slightly closer, but not that much. I've heard from elsewhere that
its a normal effect due to safety requirement of not striking the bar on
right turns, though thinking about it that would effect the angle not the
length of that tube (unless angle and necessary length for that trailer and
a 700C maximum wheel size is what leads to that amount of offset).

- Richard

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard dot Corfield at ntlworld dot com
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ Except in the Twilight Zone.

Doki said:

FWD cars don't handle better than RWD cars. It's not physically possible
for them. That said, Joe Numpty should be kept in FWD cars so that he goes
off the road forwards rather than backwards when he overcooks it on a
rainy / icy day.

I think I must be used to the characteristics of FWD on ice, and can't
imagine using a RWD. I also have memories in my parent's RWD (I was a kid
at the time, and not driving) of trying to get extra weight as far back as
possible for traction, and at one point the car doing a nice pirouette. The
roads were a lot quieter back then, and the snow and ice seemed that little
bit icier.

That said, the trike is RWD, and quite fun on ice. It would just need a
nobblier rear tyre if it gets too slippy, as its on city slicks at the
moment. Wet steep roads (1 in 4 perhaps) can cause problems unless there's
enough extra weight of panniers / tent on the back.

- Richard

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard dot Corfield at ntlworld dot com
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ Except in the Twilight Zone.

anonymous coward said:

At least you don't belch fumes out when you're waiting for the lights to
change.

Hmmm, with the local curry houses round here, ... ;-P

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard dot Corfield at ntlworld dot com
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ Except in the Twilight Zone.

Andrew Howe said:

[Volume per occupant]
Of course, many buses would do rather badly on this... And taxis. Good
thing they're exempt, then...

Unless its volume per theoretical capacity, in which cases busses would do
very well. The standing capacity is quite huge, and there's little boot
space as such.

I can just imagine the conversation.

Officer: Morning sir. Can you just step out of the car so I can fill it
with water. I need to know the volume.

unless its external volume in which case it could be "Could you just drive
through this big car dip so we can see how much the water level raises" :-)

- Richard.

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard dot Corfield at ntlworld dot com
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ Except in the Twilight Zone.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Richard Corfield said:

Unless its volume per theoretical capacity, in which cases busses would do
very well. The standing capacity is quite huge, and there's little boot
space as such.

There's an option of four seats in the boot of the Discovery.

ian