Going Dutch

In news:[email hidden],
john clayton <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

I like the enclosed appearance and design of typical Dutch bikes.
However, it seems that with more than 3 gears (which I'd need in
Edinburgh) you need to partly dismantle the rear gear to change that
wheel.

Anyone had any experience of doing this. Is it straightforward?

With my 7 speed hub gear, you need to disconnect the gear changer to change
the rear wheel, but it all slots back into place, so the only tool to remove
the wheel is the spanner for the wheel nuts. It can be a bit messy, but it's
quite straightforward.

Still fiddly enough that I've repaired punctures in situ, though.

A

john clayton said:

I like the enclosed appearance and design of typical Dutch bikes.
However, it seems that with more than 3 gears (which I'd need in
Edinburgh) you need to partly dismantle the rear gear to change that
wheel.

There are hub gears with 3, 5, 7, 8 (fairly affordable) and 14 gears (14 is
expensive).

Depending on the frame design (width of the rear axle), you might be able to
substitute one hub for another. The sizes 3,5,7,8 are available with hub
brakes if you also want those (seems like a good idea to me if you're
already accepting the hub gear).

Quoted message said:

Anyone had any experience of doing this. Is it straightforward?

If its fully enclosed, then its always going to be a bit complex. Most
people would learn to fix punctures without fully removing the rear wheel.

Your alternative might be a semi-enclosed chain guard.

Quoted message said:

Also, does anyone know of an enclosure for a derailleur gear system.
Is there such a thing?

Dunno. Somebody must have, but its not common.

However, given your stated preferences, perhaps a shaft-driven bike might be
what you're seeking. eg:
http://kinetics.org.uk/html/zero_shaft-drive.html

Kinetics are in Glasgow and seem to attract positive comments from the
newsgroup.

- Nigel

--
NC - Webmaster for http://www.2mm.org.uk/
Replies to newsgroup postings to the newsgroup please.

john clayton said:

I like the enclosed appearance and design of typical Dutch bikes.
However, it seems that with more than 3 gears (which I'd need in
Edinburgh) you need to partly dismantle the rear gear to change that
wheel.

I don't know about Dutch bikes, but Nexus 7 hubs have a quick release
mechanism on the gear cable at the hub end, but it's not necessary to
touch that when changing a *tyre*. The wheel can be removed from the bike
with the cable still attached (but unclipped from frame) and placed
besides the bike where you can work on it. Not even always necessary to
do that when fixing a puncture if you can find the problem and patch by
removing just a bit of tyre, without removing the wheel at all.

Versions with roller brake require detatching the brake cable first (by
undoing a nut and working a quick release thingy) -- easy once you've got
the knack.

Funily enough, I volunteered just this weekend to rebuild a Nexus-hubbed
wheel with a new rim for someone. Rim transplant went fine but... hmmm,
oh dear, getting it off was a piece of cake but now I'm not sure about how
that gear cable gubbins goes back together! :-( Give me derailleur gears
any day.
BTW, the wheel weighs over 3 kilos!!! (That's with a Vuelta Tempest
700x19 alloy rim).

~PB

john clayton said:

I like the enclosed appearance and design of typical Dutch bikes. However,
it seems that with more than 3 gears (which I'd need in Edinburgh) you need
to partly dismantle the rear gear to change that wheel.

Anyone had any experience of doing this. Is it straightforward?

If the 3 gears are low enough that'll be good enough to get around. I
get round Dundee on a Brompton L3 with the standard -18% gear reduction
and it's fine.
But as others have pointed out, you can get hubs with more than 3 speeds
these days. Undoing the 3 on the Brom to remove the rear wheel isn't
that bad. There's a toggle chain that controls the gear and this just
clicks out. It is fiddlier than taking out a derailleur back wheel on a
QR skewer, but if you have decent tyres (I use Schwalbe Marathons) then
you shouldn't get many punctures anyway.

Another thing to consider enclosing is the chain, which again makes
maintenance fiddlier when you do it, but basic point is you don't
generally need to do it nearly as often.

A modern city bike designed and built in the UK that takes some Dutch
roadster principles to heart without weighing nearly so much is the
Orion City 7. Have a look at http://www.orbit-cycles.co.uk/orion3.shtml
and see what you think as a basis for utility inspiration.

Quoted message said:

Also, does anyone know of an enclosure for a derailleur gear system. Is
there such a thing?

Yes, it's called a velomobile... ;-) see http://www.velomobiel.nl/

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

john clayton said:

need to partly dismantle the rear gear to change that wheel.

To change the wheel, yes. To change a tyre, no, if it's a steel frame.
Lift the tyre off the rim to the left, remove the wheelnut on the
lefthand side, pull the fork off the axle (requires quite some force, or
a nifty tool called a forkextender) and slide the tyre between fork and
axle. Don't do this with an aluminium frame.

in message <[email hidden]>, Ambrose Nankivell

(') said:

In news:[email hidden],
john clayton <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

I like the enclosed appearance and design of typical Dutch bikes.
However, it seems that with more than 3 gears (which I'd need in
Edinburgh) you need to partly dismantle the rear gear to change that
wheel.

Anyone had any experience of doing this. Is it straightforward?

With my 7 speed hub gear, you need to disconnect the gear changer to
change the rear wheel, but it all slots back into place, so the only
tool to remove the wheel is the spanner for the wheel nuts. It can be
a bit messy, but it's quite straightforward.

Still fiddly enough that I've repaired punctures in situ, though.

My memory of the days when I had a bike with an epicyclic hub is that
you had first to remove the joining link in the drive chain before you
could get the wheel out - with the chain on there was not enough slack,
and there was not enough slack in the chain with it correctly adjusted
to get it off the chainwheel. How do you get round this problem? And
wouldn't it be even more awkward with a full chaincase? My feeling is
that if you're going for an enclosed chain you really need to make it a
monoblade so that you can get the tyre off without messing about with
the wheel.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and we had run out of gas for the welding torch.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Simon Brooke said:

that if you're going for an enclosed chain you really need to make it a
monoblade so that you can get the tyre off without messing about with
the wheel.

New Mike Burrows design in this month's Cycling+ does exactly that.

ian

NC said:

If its fully enclosed, then its always going to be a bit complex. Most
people would learn to fix punctures without fully removing the rear wheel.

Most of my hack bikes in the NL from childhood on had a fully enclosed
chain guard, coaster brakes and no quick release anthing.
I always fixed punctures without removing the wheel (or losening anything
other than the tires), unless it was time for a new tube, or unless it was
one of those slow leaks that wouldn't reveal itself without total
immersion.

Only when I got into sporty bikes with quick releases I discovered the joy
of just quickly changing the tube 🙂

Roos

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My memory of the days when I had a bike with an epicyclic hub is that
you had first to remove the joining link in the drive chain before you
could get the wheel out - with the chain on there was not enough slack,
and there was not enough slack in the chain with it correctly adjusted
to get it off the chainwheel. How do you get round this problem? And
wouldn't it be even more awkward with a full chaincase? My feeling is
that if you're going for an enclosed chain you really need to make it a
monoblade so that you can get the tyre off without messing about with
the wheel.

All the bikes I've had with hub gears had forward facing dropouts, so undo
the wheel nuts and gear cable, push fowards and take the wheel out in an
entirely normal fashion. Did you have funny droupouts or something?

(hmm. rear facing dropouts - well, I probably wouldn't be aiming to have the
chain tight enough to preclude derailing off the chainring with the wheel
fully forwards. so removal would be like normal except with the additional
step of derailing the chain before pulling it out of the back).

Full chaincase - ah, yes, I'd be practicing my in-situ puncture repairing
then...

cheers,
clive

Ian G Batten [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Simon Brooke said:

that if you're going for an enclosed chain you really need to make it a
monoblade so that you can get the tyre off without messing about with
the wheel.

New Mike Burrows design in this month's Cycling+ does exactly that.

Seen it in the flesh. Looks quite nice, though there's an awful lot of
CF for a city bike. What with there only being two in the world
(Apparently), I wasn't able to ride it but I doubt it has many quirks.

Jon

Ewoud Dronkert [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Don't do this with an aluminium frame.

I don't think you emphasised that nearly enough. Try this will an alu
frame and you stand a very good chance of turning your bike into a
monoblade!

Jon

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

Seen it in the flesh. Looks quite nice, though there's an awful lot of
CF for a city bike. What with there only being two in the world

I don't think there's any intrinsic reason why carbon-fibre, using
pre-preg, should be any more labour intensive to work with than
fibre-glass, and given volumes the capital requirement (autoclaves and
such like) would be amortised. The materials are expensive, but again
volume would take it down. I can't help thinking that in fifty years
composites will be the cromo of the age.

ian

Ian G Batten [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

Seen it in the flesh. Looks quite nice, though there's an awful lot of
CF for a city bike. What with there only being two in the world

I don't think there's any intrinsic reason why carbon-fibre, using
pre-preg, should be any more labour intensive to work with than
fibre-glass, and given volumes the capital requirement (autoclaves and
such like) would be amortised. The materials are expensive, but again
volume would take it down. I can't help thinking that in fifty years
composites will be the cromo of the age.

True. CF is apparently no harder to work with than fibre glass, but the
problem is the cost. Last time I checked CF was about 7 times as
expensive as GF for the basic material and the resins are more
expensive. While volume will bring this down it has a long way to go.

That said. Given the recent rises in the prices of both steel and
aluminium, perhaps now is a good time to invest in shares in CF.

Jon

in message <[email hidden]>, Clive George

(') said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My memory of the days when I had a bike with an epicyclic hub is that
you had first to remove the joining link in the drive chain before
you could get the wheel out - with the chain on there was not enough
slack, and there was not enough slack in the chain with it correctly
adjusted to get it off the chainwheel. How do you get round this
problem? And wouldn't it be even more awkward with a full chaincase?
My feeling is that if you're going for an enclosed chain you really
need to make it a monoblade so that you can get the tyre off without
messing about with the wheel.

All the bikes I've had with hub gears had forward facing dropouts, so
undo the wheel nuts and gear cable, push fowards and take the wheel
out in an entirely normal fashion. Did you have funny droupouts or
something?

I don't know that they were funny, but they certainly faced the rear.
They had caps which fitted over the open ends through which projected
bolts which you could adjust to alter the chain tension. The bike was
an ex-army job made, I believe, sometime before 1945.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I'd rather live in sybar-space

in message <[email hidden]>, Ian G Batten

(') said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

Seen it in the flesh. Looks quite nice, though there's an awful lot
of CF for a city bike. What with there only being two in the world

I don't think there's any intrinsic reason why carbon-fibre, using
pre-preg, should be any more labour intensive to work with than
fibre-glass, and given volumes the capital requirement (autoclaves and
such like) would be amortised.

You don't _need_ autoclaves for carbon fibre. You can vacuum-bag it
perfectly effectively with perfectly ordinary polythene sheeting and a
domestic vacuum cleaner.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

...but have you *seen* the size of the world wide spider?

in message <[email hidden]>, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk ('') said:

Ian G Batten [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

Seen it in the flesh. Looks quite nice, though there's an awful lot
of CF for a city bike. What with there only being two in the world

I don't think there's any intrinsic reason why carbon-fibre, using
pre-preg, should be any more labour intensive to work with than
fibre-glass, and given volumes the capital requirement (autoclaves
and
such like) would be amortised. The materials are expensive, but
again
volume would take it down. I can't help thinking that in fifty years
composites will be the cromo of the age.

True. CF is apparently no harder to work with than fibre glass, but
the problem is the cost. Last time I checked CF was about 7 times as
expensive as GF for the basic material and the resins are more
expensive. While volume will bring this down it has a long way to go.

The resin is just epoxy, similar to that used in boat-building (in fact
boat building epoxies work perfectly well with carbon fabric). Pre-preg
is considerably more expensive largely because of the need for
refrigerated storage, but if you're prepared to wet out your own fabric
it's less than twice the price of GRP. I costed out skinning a nine
metre cat with CF and it wasn't frightening - under a thousand pounds
for two nine metre hulls.
<URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/boats/slippery/slippery_0_4.html>

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; my other religion is Emacs

Simon Brooke [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

You don't _need_ autoclaves for carbon fibre. You can vacuum-bag it
perfectly effectively with perfectly ordinary polythene sheeting and a
domestic vacuum cleaner.

That depends on what you are doing. The moulding techniques involving
pre-preg used by the pros involve high temperatures and high pressures.

Jon

Simon Brooke [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

The resin is just epoxy, similar to that used in boat-building (in fact
boat building epoxies work perfectly well with carbon fabric).

But with GF you can use polyester based resins (And with some of the=20
fabrics you have to).

Quoted message said:

Pre-preg
is considerably more expensive largely because of the need for
refrigerated storage, but if you're prepared to wet out your own fabric
it's less than twice the price of GRP.=20

Where are you sourcing from?

Cfs charge =A32.67 + VAT for 1 square metre of 300g CSM GF
and =A315.65 + VAT for 1 square metre of 200g CF.

That's slightly more than "less than twice the price".

Quoted message said:

I costed out skinning a nine
metre cat with CF and it wasn't frightening - under a thousand pounds
for two nine metre hulls.=20
<URL:http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/boats/slippery/slippery_0_4.html>

I'd seriously love to have a play with CF. And I may well do in a few=20
months, but the first project would definately be to build a monofin for=20
my friend as that is a far simpler project than building a bike frame!

Jon

in message <[email hidden]>, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk ('') said:

Simon Brooke [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

The resin is just epoxy, similar to that used in boat-building (in
fact boat building epoxies work perfectly well with carbon fabric).

But with GF you can use polyester based resins (And with some of the
fabrics you have to).

True, but they're nothing like as good.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pre-preg
is considerably more expensive largely because of the need for
refrigerated storage, but if you're prepared to wet out your own
fabric it's less than twice the price of GRP.

Where are you sourcing from?

Cfs charge £2.67 + VAT for 1 square metre of 300g CSM GF
and £15.65 + VAT for 1 square metre of 200g CF.

You're not comparing like with like. Chopped Strand Mat has virtually no
structural strength because all the fibres are short and by definition
they aren't aligned with the direction of maximum stress. Even woven
glass cloth is not in the same league as CF because the tight radius of
the fibre in the weave greatly reduces its strength (although woven
cloth is good for abrasion resistance). It's only when you get into
unidirectional glass that you start to get a material with serious
strength properties, and the difference in price between unidirectional
glass and CF cloth is not that great.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
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