Wheel Building

David Waters said:

Hey folks, having been quoted 350 to have a set of hubs and rims laced
together I am thinking it may be prudent to build them myself. May
cost a bit more in the short term but in the longterm could save
heaps. Would also be another skill to tick off!

Would be a good skill, but many decent suppliers don't charge extra for
building. See Parker International for a start. The skill would however
save money when it comes to replacing rims, but you could learn when that's
required.

Quoted message said:

I have had a butchers at Sheldon Browns site to see what he has to say
and it all seems fairly straightforward.

I am completely bemused as to how to calculate the spoke lengths
though.

A spoke calculator will do it for you: enter rim & hub (or specs of) and
pattern, etc. Sheldon has links to some; also see DT's online calculator.

Quoted message said:

Does 1/2mm really make that much difference??

No but best to get within 2 mm of the ideal length when you can.

Quoted message said:

Also what
kit am I
going to need? At a guess I would say a wheelbuilding stand (Are
Minoura[1] any good?) and a dishing tool (again are Minoura any
good[1]) and obviously a spoke key.

I've got the Minoura Workman Pro kit (with stand and dishing guage: it's ok,
does what's required. You need a better spoke key, though: Buddy Spokey or
DT/Park/Tacx, etc.

Quoted message said:

What kind of spokes should I be going for? I am trying to build a
fairly light set of road wheels that will hopefully be quite speedy.

Depends on budget, your weight and importance of reliability. Most roadies
seem happy with 32 spokes per wheel. ACI, DT or Sapim 2/1.8/2* are
considered the default decent basic spokes for road bike wheels. Spaim
Laser or DT Revolution 2/1.5/2 are lighter and more fatigue resistant.
Bladed spokes is the next step up after that (eg. Sapim CX-Ray).

Personally, I like to use 36-spoke rear wheels for extra reliability, with
stronger drive side spokes as well (DT Alpine III).

* Double butted: figures are diameters in mm for ends and middle of spoke.

~PB

How much? Surely not 350 quid

I would recommend getting "The Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt. Not chea
at around 20 quid but it explains the mechanics of spoked wheel
(important to understand this before you tackle one) as well as takin
you through all the steps of building, truing and repairing

I would get spokes to within 1mm of specified length - they are readil
available in 1mm increments

The Minoura stand is OK for occasional work. Park is best but expensive

Park spoke key (with coloured handle, get the right one) is good to hol
and has good fit. Worth the 5 or 6 quid

You don't HAVE to have a dishing tool. You can measure the rim offse
with a steel rule and then turn the wheel round in the jig an
measure again. From the two measurements you can calculate how fa
off centre it is

Sounds like you already have the hubs and rims? What are they

Ia

-

in message <[email hidden]>, David Waters

(') said:

Hey folks, having been quoted 350 to have a set of hubs and rims laced
together I am thinking it may be prudent to build them myself. May
cost a bit more in the short term but in the longterm could save
heaps. Would also be another skill to tick off!

I have had a butchers at Sheldon Browns site to see what he has to say
and it all seems fairly straightforward.

I am completely bemused as to how to calculate the spoke lengths
though.
Does 1/2mm really make that much difference?? Also what kit am I
going to need? At a guess I would say a wheelbuilding stand (Are
Minoura[1] any good?) and a dishing tool (again are Minoura any
good[1]) and obviously a spoke key.

You need a spoke key. I have a Minoura trueing stand and it is good but
you can do it perfectly well in the forks of the bike (turn the bike
upside down, obviously). You don't need a dishing tool and I've never
used one but I imagine it might be helpful. Wheel building isn't hard
if you are patient and systematic, and riding on wheels you have built
is a nice feeling. However for someone who knows what they are doing
wheelbuilding is pretty quick and there's no way you should be being
charged more than two hours' labour for a pair.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I'm fed up with Life 1.0. I never liked it much and now it's getting
me down. I think I'll upgrade to MSLife 97 -- you know, the one that
comes in a flash new box and within weeks you're crawling with bugs.

"David Waters" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hey folks, having been quoted 350 to have a set of hubs and rims laced
together I am thinking it may be prudent to build them myself. May cost
a bit more in the short term but in the longterm could save heaps. Would
also be another skill to tick off!

a) 350 GBP is _far_ too much and b) yes, learning to wheelbuild is a useful
skill.

Quoted message said:

I have had a butchers at Sheldon Browns site to see what he has to say
and it all seems fairly straightforward.

I've built mine based on his page and had no issues yet.

Quoted message said:

I am completely bemused as to how to calculate the spoke lengths though.

Damon Rinard's spreadsheet works for me.

Quoted message said:

Also what kit am I going to need? At a guess I would say a wheelbuilding
stand (Are Minoura[1] any good?) and a dishing tool (again are Minoura any
good[1]) and obviously a spoke key.

You only _need_ a spoke key. I've done all my wheelbuilding using
frame/forks as wheelbuilding stand/dishing tool.

Quoted message said:

What kind of spokes should I be going for? I am trying to build a fairly
light set of road wheels that will hopefully be quite speedy.

I would go for 14/16 db spokes (2.0/1.8mm) for my first set - leave the DT
revolutions until you have at least some experience.

cheers,
clive

David Waters said:

Hey folks, having been quoted 350 to have a set of hubs and rims laced
together I am thinking it may be prudent to build them myself.

Name names, someone is taking the p**s

Quoted message said:

May cost
a bit more in the short term but in the longterm could save heaps. Would
also be another skill to tick off!

I have had a butchers at Sheldon Browns site to see what he has to say
and it all seems fairly straightforward.

Sheldon is good but better still get The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brant.
Following his method will give you bombproof wheels that never need touching.

Quoted message said:

I am completely bemused as to how to calculate the spoke lengths though.
Does 1/2mm really make that much difference?? Also what kit am I
going to need? At a guess I would say a wheelbuilding stand (Are
Minoura[1] any good?) and a dishing tool (again are Minoura any good[1])
and obviously a spoke key.

Use an online spoke calculator. Worth getting them within 1mm - just makes
building much easier. Dishing tool is optional. Minoura stand it OK, Park is
better but more expensive.

Tony

Tony Raven said:

David Waters said:

Hey folks, having been quoted 350 to have a set of hubs and rims laced
together I am thinking it may be prudent to build them myself.

Name names, someone is taking the p**s

Quoted message said:

May cost
a bit more in the short term but in the longterm could save heaps. Would
also be another skill to tick off!

I have had a butchers at Sheldon Browns site to see what he has to say
and it all seems fairly straightforward.

Sheldon is good but better still get The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brant.
Following his method will give you bombproof wheels that never need touching.

Quoted message said:

I am completely bemused as to how to calculate the spoke lengths though.
Does 1/2mm really make that much difference?? Also what kit am I
going to need? At a guess I would say a wheelbuilding stand (Are
Minoura[1] any good?) and a dishing tool (again are Minoura any good[1])
and obviously a spoke key.

Use an online spoke calculator. Worth getting them within 1mm - just makes
building much easier. Dishing tool is optional. Minoura stand it OK, Park is
better but more expensive.

Tony

did i say 350?? I meant £50. Look at the the number 3 button on your
keyboard.........😉

As for the wheels, I already have the rims and am in the process of
acquiring hubs. The rims are mavic open pros, the hubs most likely to be
shimano 105 or ultegra. Ideally I like the idea of bladed or oval spokes
but that may be a case of running before walking...

David Waters said:

did i say 350?? I meant £50.

My LBS charges £30 for building two wheels. I guess this price doesn't
include spokes because these are quoted separately. 32 spokes cost £13.
Looks like £50 is not unusual if it includes the spokes.
--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter
saying I approved of it." - Mark Twain
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

David Waters said:

As for the wheels, I already have the rims and am in the process of
acquiring hubs. The rims are mavic open pros, the hubs most likely to
be shimano 105 or ultegra.

This is the same wheel I bought from Ribble earlier this year: handbuilt
pair of Open Pros with Ultegra hubs (32 hole stainless stel, bouble-butted)
for £122. Not bad I thought. No problems at all and they've done about 2000
km so far.

Simon Brooke said:

You need a spoke key. I have a Minoura trueing stand and it is good but
you can do it perfectly well in the forks of the bike (turn the bike
upside down, obviously). You don't need a dishing tool and I've never
used one but I imagine it might be helpful. Wheel building isn't hard

[snip]

You can make your own dishing tool pretty easily. I made mine years ago
out of curtain rails - details on my website cycling page at
http://www.acampbell.org.uk. It still works fine.

Anthony

--
<<|
| http://www.acampbell.org.uk/cycling/
_________ ,___o / \
__________ _\ <;_ / \ OCD Cycloclimbing
___________ (_)/ (_) / \ http://www.ocd.org.uk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quoted message said:

did i say 350?? I meant £50. Look at the the number 3 button on your
keyboard.........😉

50 doesn't sound unreasonable. The cheapest I've ever found was £10. per
wheel without spokes.

I eat rims (utility cycling to 25mph then back to 0 for each traffic
light) so it's a nice skill to learn. Half the advantage is that you can
re-use spokes if you change a rim on your own wheels, whereas shops always
like to use new spokes.

Quoted message said:

As for the wheels, I already have the rims and am in the process of
acquiring hubs. The rims are mavic open pros, the hubs most likely to be
shimano 105 or ultegra. Ideally I like the idea of bladed or oval spokes
but that may be a case of running before walking...

Build the front wheel as practice before you build the back wheel. Front
wheels are a fair bit easier IME because you don't need to worry about
dishing so much.

AC

Anthony Campbell said:

[snip]

You can make your own dishing tool pretty easily. I made mine years ago
out of curtain rails - details on my website cycling page at
http://www.acampbell.org.uk. It still works fine.

Anthony

Thank you for that Anthony. That should save me a few bob. [1]

All I need now is a plan for a truing stand. I object strongly to giving
Mr Park 75 pounds for an overgrown tuning fork, with the help of the
school DT department I feel sure I can Mek Summat Yoosful [2].

Terry Duckmanton

[1] My mother was a Scot, I have inherited her 'careful with money' trait.
[2] I was born in Nottinghamshire where this phrase actually means something

wheelsgoround said:

I would recommend getting "The Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt. Not cheap
at around 20 quid but it explains the mechanics of spoked wheels
(important to understand this before you tackle one) as well as taking
you through all the steps of building, truing and repairing.

Not read this yet, so there are holes in my wheelbuilding knowledge. I
will read it before starting work on my next wheel.

Quoted message said:

I would get spokes to within 1mm of specified length - they are readily
available in 1mm increments.

This is the bit that confused me when I built my first (so far only)
wheel [1]. Nobody seems to mention the business of correct length except
to say that the spokes should be a particular length for a specific
combination of hub, rim and lacing pattern. I am one of those peculiar
people who always want to know _why_ such and such is the case. The way
I see it is this;

- There is a limited amount of thread on the end of each spoke.

- You want the nipple to grab as much thread as it it can.

- You don't want the end of the spoke to stick out beyond the end of the
nipple otherwise it becomes a good source of punctures.

- The SPOCALC spreadsheet gives a length which should bring the end of
the spoke level with the bottom of the screwdriver slot in the nipple.

Have I got that right or is there something that I have not considered?
I am guessing also that the answer is given in Brandt's book, but as I
said before I have not yet read it.

Terry Duckmanton

[1] A rear wheel with a five speed freewheel on a nondescript hub with a
Mavic MA3 rim. It is still in use on my "shopping bike". It has probably
done about 1500 miles.

in message <QuIwc.107$W14.78@newsfe4-gui>, Terry D

(') said:

The way I see it is this;

- There is a limited amount of thread on the end of each spoke.

- You want the nipple to grab as much thread as it it can.

- You don't want the end of the spoke to stick out beyond the end of
the nipple otherwise it becomes a good source of punctures.

- The SPOCALC spreadsheet gives a length which should bring the end of
the spoke level with the bottom of the screwdriver slot in the nipple.

Have I got that right or is there something that I have not
considered?

Correct in all particulars.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

A message from our sponsor: This site is now in free fall

David Waters said:

Hey folks, having been quoted 350 to have a set of hubs and rims laced
together

What with ? Chopper rear brake cables ?!

Quoted message said:

I am thinking it may be prudent to build them myself.

It's not a bad idea. However it's _cheap_ to have wheels built. Given
the general faffing around involved, and the really rather reasonable
charges that I see locally, then I can't claim there's a great
economic reason for it.

Quoted message said:

Would also be another skill to tick off!

Which is probably the reason why we do it.

Quoted message said:

I have had a butchers at Sheldon Browns site to see what he has to say
and it all seems fairly straightforward.

It is. Read Jobst Brandt's book for the theory, but follow Sheldon's
instructions for the process, as he's a little clearer. If you're
prepared to accept good recommendations without understanding their
background, then Sheldon alone is fine.

Quoted message said:

I am completely bemused as to how to calculate the spoke lengths though.

Many ways - and it is important.

One is just to go into a shop and buy them. If you're buying loose
spokes, then you're probably dealing with a shop that builds too.
They'll be able to find the lengths.

The way many shops do it is to use a look-up chart. For standard
crossings of Shimano hubs onto Mavic rims (or similar commonplace
parts) then it's easy.

For weird components though, you need to calculate it. This involves
measuring flange spacings, rim diameters etc., although these can
often be looked up too. There are web on-line calculators to do the
rest, but it's not rocket science. You also need to calculate rather
than looking-up if you want a half-radial lacing or suchlike.

Personally I read Jobst, then made up my own Excel spreadsheet to
calculate them. it's not hard (trivial Pythagorean geometry).

Quoted message said:

Also what kit am I going to need?

Very little.

Spoke key. GET A SPOKEY !!!! They're much superior to any other
than I've used, included Parks, DTs, Campags et al. OK, so they look
like cheap rubbish, but they work.

Spoke driver. This is an old Pozidrive hex bit, ground down to be a
flat bit with a spike on the nose. Useful for quick assembly, and damn
near essential for building on deep box-section DH rims. You can
manage without though, and they're hard to buy.

Various rules, straight edges etc.

A stand. Useful for fast builds in a shop. The rest of us can manage
without. Many people lace on a table or their knee, then use an
inverted bike for final build.

My truing stand is home made, from a carved up scrap front fork and
some welded steel. All you really need is a fork or two (which can
still be atached to your bike) and a pencil held in a bulldog clip as
a truing indicator. I like to use my thumbnail anyway, because I'm
more accurate by touch than by sight.

You'll need a dish stick, but this can be home made too. Mine is a
slice of plywood with two "feet" on it, and a relieved space across
the centre to clear the hub and spokes. The indicator is another
little stip of ply, and a bulldog clip.

Quoted message said:

What kind of spokes should I be going for?

Double butted DTs and brass nipples. They're easy to build with,
reliable, and almost as lightweight as "ultimate spokes".

Don't mess around with funny spokes or funny nipples. They save you
almost no weight / drag and they're a real [censored] to build. You can go
for black spokes if you want, but nothing more complicated - certainly
not on a first wheelset.

There's also the lacing pattern to consider - read Jobst for why.
Personally I'd say that all 36s are 3x, 32s are either 2x or 3x (2x
for under 32). Fronts under 32 can be radial, but only if you're a
drag-queen roadie - anyone else should stick with crossing them like
Leonardo intended. Rears with wide cassettes however (and that's
everything except fixed wheels these days) should be half-radial, as
it evens up the tensions a bit. IMHO, but I think it's a good idea.

Resurrected '50s vintage stuff should be snowflake or crowsfoot
patterns, and tied and soldered at the crossings - just because it
looks retro.

And when you've built your wheels, _stress_relieve_ them ! (Sheldon
tells all). This is the biggest difference between a good hand-built
wheel and a factory farmed tortilla.

My first-built wheel failed recently - after 7 years of being the back
end of my daily commuter and kerb jumping hack. The rubbish Mavic 217
rim (I'll never buy another Mavic) developed corrosion-induced
cracking around the spoke holes. Even with half the spokes pulled
proud of the rim surface though, it was still round and true. If you
follow those two guides, you _can_ build damn good wheels on your
first attempt.

--
Smert' spamionam

Andy Dingley said:

A stand. Useful for fast builds in a shop. The rest of us can manage
without. Many people lace on a table or their knee, then use an
inverted bike for final build.

My truing stand is home made, from a carved up scrap front fork and
some welded steel. All you really need is a fork or two (which can
still be atached to your bike) and a pencil held in a bulldog clip as
a truing indicator. I like to use my thumbnail anyway, because I'm
more accurate by touch than by sight.

Most accurate way of all is by *sound*. The guides of a proper stand will
make a loud noise as they brush against the rim, enabling the wheel to be
trued to a fraction of a milimeter. It'll also be fully adjustable, much
better than using the frame; a good investment, IMO. A stand is also better
than the frame if/when the wheel is ever way out of true (so far out that is
wouldn't go round in frame or forks).

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>, Andy Dingley

(') said:

There's also the lacing pattern to consider - read Jobst for why.
Personally I'd say that all 36s are 3x, 32s are either 2x or 3x (2x
for under 32). Fronts under 32 can be radial, but only if you're a
drag-queen roadie - anyone else should stick with crossing them like
Leonardo intended.

Why? There's really not much point in crossing on a front unless you
have hub brakes. The people I learned from were of the opinion that a
more crossed wheel was more springy than radials, but Jobst rather
pooh-poohs this (mind you I always find it hard with Jobst to tell when
he's writing from knowledge and when from prejudice - he writes total
bollocks with exactly the same authority that he writes common sense).

Personally I like radial fronts - they look very clean and work very
well (and they're very easy to build). Of course, you need to check
whether your hub is rated for 'em.

Quoted message said:

Rears with wide cassettes however (and that's
everything except fixed wheels these days) should be half-radial, as
it evens up the tensions a bit. IMHO, but I think it's a good idea.

I'd agree.

Quoted message said:

My first-built wheel failed recently - after 7 years of being the back
end of my daily commuter and kerb jumping hack. The rubbish Mavic 217
rim (I'll never buy another Mavic) developed corrosion-induced
cracking around the spoke holes. Even with half the spokes pulled
proud of the rim surface though, it was still round and true. If you
follow those two guides, you _can_ build damn good wheels on your
first attempt.

And I'd agree with that, too. It's a matter of being patient and
systematic; it ain't rocket science.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; 'I think we should trust our president in every decision
;; that he makes and we should just support that'
;; Britney Spears of George W Bush, CNN 04:09:03

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 09:05:02 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Fronts under 32 can be radial, but only if you're a
drag-queen roadie - anyone else should stick with crossing them like
Leonardo intended.

Why?

If you have a good reason, then go to it. Feel free to ignore me.

However a radial lacing puts the spoke tension up, and that makes
building harder. There's also the risk of breaking a fragile rim.
Don't let me stop you if you feel up to it, but I wouldn't recommend
it as a first wheelset.

Radial is easier to build than aero spokes though.

"Andy Dingley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 09:05:02 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Fronts under 32 can be radial, but only if you're a
drag-queen roadie - anyone else should stick with crossing them like
Leonardo intended.

Why?

If you have a good reason, then go to it. Feel free to ignore me.

Although it's probably a good idea to weigh carefully the opinion of someone who
is capable of forging his own spokes from D2 :-)

Quoted message said:

However a radial lacing puts the spoke tension up, and that makes
building harder. There's also the risk of breaking a fragile rim.

I find I'm not reassured by the apparent fragility of even the hubs that Shimano
says are OK for radial spoking.

Look at a hub flange and imagine where the force exerted by the spoke is going.

Quoted message said:

Don't let me stop you if you feel up to it, but I wouldn't recommend
it as a first wheelset.

Perhaps the best thing is to do all the fancy stuff first, ruin a pile of kit,
and then know why all that doesn't work well?

Quoted message said:

Radial is easier to build than aero spokes though.

What's aero about radial? The spoke presents exactly the same swept area.
--
"To ... just not care that there are naked triathletes running
across your lawn, that's just a waste of exhibitionism."
- Kibo, in alt.religion.kibology

Andy Dingley [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

If you have a good reason, then go to it. Feel free to ignore me.

However a radial lacing puts the spoke tension up, and that makes
building harder.

Having built two wheels (Front and rear) one radial, one crossed. The
radial was by far the easier of the two. Easier to lace, easier to true.
As the direction of the force is direct and no spokes are in contact,
adjusting one spoke has little effect on the others.

Quoted message said:

There's also the risk of breaking a fragile rim.

I don't see how this is related to spoke lacing. Fragile hub flange
maybe...

Quoted message said:

Don't let me stop you if you feel up to it, but I wouldn't recommend
it as a first wheelset.

If the equipment (hub) is up to it, then radial spoking is a very easy
way to build a non-disc front wheel.

Quoted message said:

Radial is easier to build than aero spokes though.

True, but building any lacing pattern with aero spokes is harder than
the same pattern with round ones.

Jon