Roundabout Woes

On 4/6/04 10:45 am, in article [email hidden],

Caher said:

Hi all, I’ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in my case on
path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I can get
around town and to work. However I’ve now come into conflict with the
motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane
road and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lane
whilst turning to the right – or the second exit.

What do you mean by outside? LH or RH lane? If you are going right you
should be in the RH lane. Left, LH lane. Straight on, pick and mix.

Quoted message said:

A motorist came around
suddenly from the oncoming direction and tried to hoot his way into the
first exit I was cycling past. He game me a mouthful of abuse.

Was he coming from your right, ie already on the roundabout?

Quoted message said:

I managed
to catch him up for further clarification. Have I forgotten the Highway
Code for cyclists, was he being obnoxious or was I actually cycling
correctly. Many thanks Caher.

Potentially bad road positioning but without further clarification one
cannot be sure. Your road position may have led him to believe that you were
going left, not right so he was moderately justified in being miffed.

Moral:

1. road positioning should indicate what you are doing.
2. Clear and unambiguous signals should indicate what you are doing.

1 and 2 should send the same messages.

...d

Caher said:

Hi all, I’ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in my case on
path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I can get
around town and to work. However I’ve now come into conflict with the
motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane
road and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lane
whilst turning to the right – or the second exit. A motorist came around
suddenly from the oncoming direction and tried to hoot his way into the
first exit I was cycling past. He game me a mouthful of abuse. I managed
to catch him up for further clarification. Have I forgotten the Highway
Code for cyclists, was he being obnoxious or was I actually cycling
correctly. Many thanks Caher.

I can't see that you were doing anything wrong (provided you didn't have to
give way to him when you were entering the roundabout).

Seems to me he was annoyed at having to slow down for a cyclist.
--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "I've just learned about his illness. Let's hope it's
nothing trivial." - Irvin S. Cobb
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

Caher said:

Hi all, I’ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in my case on
path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I can get
around town and to work. However I’ve now come into conflict with the
motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane
road and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lane
whilst turning to the right – or the second exit. A motorist came around
suddenly from the oncoming direction and tried to hoot his way into the
first exit I was cycling past.

Let me get this straight - there are three roads entering this
roundabout at 6, 10 and 2 o'lock on a clock face (approximately), you
went in at six o'clock and wanted to leave at 2 o'clock, and they came
in at 2 o'clock and tried to leave at 10 o'clock?

The laning is somewhat immaterial - you were in the correct lane to turn
right (unless there were bizarre local road markings stating otherwise).
However:

If you were on the roundabout before he entered, and he simply caught
you up; case closed - he was being an impatient twit.

If you and he entered at the same time and he caught up with you, then
ditto.

If he entered first and you failed to give way to traffic already on the
roundabout, thus causing him to brake (having miscalculated the speed he
was coming round?) then I think you may have been a little careless, and
he would be justified in using his horn to warn you of his presence
(although not, of course, as a rebuke).

Between the latter two cases, of course, there is a grey area dividing
the point where you did/didn't give way to traffic already on the
roundabout.

R.

Caher said:

Hi all, I=92ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in my case on=

Quoted message said:

path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I can get=20
around town and to work. However I=92ve now come into conflict with the=

Quoted message said:

motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane
road and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lane
=20

Let's be clear here - do you mean the left- or right-hand lane? Which
lane would you have used for that manouevre in a car?

Quoted message said:

whilst turning to the right =96 or the second exit.

How many exits, at what angles? You're saying that the second exit - the
one you wanted - was more than 180deg around the roundabout?

Quoted message said:

A motorist came around suddenly from the oncoming direction

What - the wrong way around the roundabout?!

Quoted message said:

and tried to hoot his way into the first exit I was cycling past.

Were you signalling right from joining the roundabout until the first
exit? You should have been.

Quoted message said:

He game me a mouthful of abuse. I managed to catch him up for further
clarification. Have I forgotten the Highway Code for cyclists, was he
being obnoxious or was I actually cycling correctly. Many thanks
Caher.

Hard to tell without knowing the exact situation.

For a typical dual-lane entrance to a roundabout where I want an exit
right of straight ahead, where there are no marking arrows, I would
attempt to enter the roundabout either in the right-hand lane, or more
probably towards the right of the left-hand lane.

I would signal right from before entering the roundabout until the exit
before mine to make it clear I was continuing round. If the roundabout
has sufficient room, I would probably position myself to allow motorists
taking earlier exits to overtake me on the left and allow those taking
my exit or later exits to overtake on the right.

If that's not safe (fast or narrow roundabouts) I would probably ride in
the middle of the left lane and signal right as described above.

Be prominent and confident, and make it obvious what you're doing. Most
motorists will respect that and give you room and time even if they
don't like it. You'll never eliminate idiots, though...

Get a copy of Cyclecraft and the HC.

--=20
Mark.

Richard said:

The laning is somewhat immaterial - you were in the correct lane to turn
right (unless there were bizarre local road markings stating otherwise).

Clarification: I assumed that "outside" meant "right-hand" as applied to
a two-lane road, but reading Mssr Martin's nigh-simultaneous reply, I
realise it could also mean "left-hand" :-) when applied to a roundabout.

If you're turning right at a roundabout, in the absence of bizarre local
road markings stating otherwise [1], you should be in the right-hand
lane, as David said.

R.

[1] Unless they're one of those stupid ****ing killer cycle lanes around
the periphery of a roundabout with a give-way to cross every entrance
and exit. Avoid these like the veritable plague. Stick to vehicle lanes.

Richard said:

[1] Unless they're one of those stupid ****ing killer cycle lanes around
the periphery of a roundabout with a give-way to cross every entrance
and exit. Avoid these like the veritable plague. Stick to vehicle
lanes.

I'm so in form today I'm replying to my own posts twice, dammit.

Stick to MOTOR vehicle lanes.

Caher said:

Hi all, I=92ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in my case on
path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I can get
around town and to work. However I=92ve now come into conflict with the
motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane
road and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lane
whilst turning to the right =96 or the second exit.

This is fine - currently rules 62 & 163 www.highwaycode.gov.uk. You should
have been signalling to the right to show that you were not going to turn
off at the 1st exit.

You can also take the same route as you would when in a car - you don't
have to keep to the left.

Quoted message said:

A motorist came around
suddenly from the oncoming direction and tried to hoot his way into the
first exit I was cycling past. He game me a mouthful of abuse. I managed
to catch him up for further clarification.

I wouldn't have gone back for more?!

Quoted message said:

Have I forgotten the Highway
Code for cyclists, was he being obnoxious or was I actually cycling
correctly.

If you don't have it already, you may like to get 'Cyclecraft'

http://www.lesberries.co.uk/ccraft/ccraft.htm

which gives more advice on roundabouts.

Kit

"Caher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi all, I've recently moved from the world of off-road (in my case

on

Quoted message said:

path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I can get
around town and to work. However I've now come into conflict with

the

Quoted message said:

motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual

lane

Quoted message said:

road and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside

lane

Quoted message said:

whilst turning to the right - or the second exit. A motorist came

around

Quoted message said:

suddenly from the oncoming direction and tried to hoot his way into

the

Quoted message said:

first exit I was cycling past. He game me a mouthful of abuse. I

managed

Quoted message said:

to catch him up for further clarification. Have I forgotten the

Highway

Quoted message said:

Code for cyclists, was he being obnoxious or was I actually cycling
correctly. Many thanks Caher.

There are two separate issues here: roundabouts, and dealing with
honking motorists.

The roundabout rules for cyclists in the Highway Code are quite
amusing really.

Rule 61 says that the correct procedure for roundabouts is described
in rules 160-166. This is a strong hint that what they go on to say
in rule 62 is NOT the correct procedure.

Rule 62 says "You may feel safer either keeping to the left on the
roundabout, or dismounting and walking..."

Note that is does NOT say that you WILL be safer, and the previous
rule has strongly implied that it is not a "correct procedure".

There really is no alternative but to get right out in the middle,
staying well away from the outside edge unless you are leaving at the
very first exit.

Like sking, surfing, or whatever, it feels good if you can do this
well, but there is no alternative to practice. Start on little mini
roundabouts with light traffic, and work up gradually to the real
monsters on busy rural trunk roads. At least you are on a roundabout
for only a short time.

There's a good book on riding among other traffic, "Cyclecraft" by
John Franklin. I would say it's worth buying, not just reading.

As for honking and hooting, about all you can do is ignore it. Hoots
might be somebody trying to be helpful - once, with me, it was a
motorist trying to tell my that my briefcase was about to fall off my
back rack. It's good to learn a bit of animal psychology, for
example when to look at motorists, and when not to, but that's not
among the basics that you have to learn immediately.

Jeremy Parker

I was already on the roundabout. He came from the south side I ha
already got on from the east. I was signalling to come off at the south
He wanted to get off at the west. I was travelling past the west on th
way to the south. He argued that I should have made my way into the bus
inside then try to get back out onto the outside to turn off. This woul
be stupid. It’s far safer to stay on the outside all the way aroun
signalling as I go rather than weaving in and out. If I was driving I d
not try to overtake someone already on the roundabout

-

in message <[email hidden]>, Caher

(') said:

Hi all, I’ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in my case on
path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I can get
around town and to work. However I’ve now come into conflict with the
motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane
road and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lane
whilst turning to the right – or the second exit. A motorist came
around suddenly from the oncoming direction and tried to hoot his way
into the first exit I was cycling past. He game me a mouthful of
abuse. I managed to catch him up for further clarification. Have I
forgotten the Highway Code for cyclists, was he being obnoxious or was
I actually cycling correctly.

He was obnoxious, but you should have gone into the inside lane.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; ... exposing the violence incoherent in the system...

Caher said:

I was already on the roundabout. He came from the south side I had
already got on from the east. I was signalling to come off at the south.
He wanted to get off at the west. I was travelling past the west on the
way to the south.

You come on from the east, want to get off at the south, and travel past
the west? Either you're mixing up your wests and easts, or you're
trying to use the gravitational slingshot approach to build up speed...

Caher said:

I was already on the roundabout. He came from the south side I had
already got on from the east. I was signalling to come off at the south.
He wanted to get off at the west.

You're not in Britain, are you?
--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "I've just learned about his illness. Let's hope it's
nothing trivial." - Irvin S. Cobb
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

"Caher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was already on the roundabout. He came from the south side I had
already got on from the east. I was signalling to come off at the south.
He wanted to get off at the west. I was travelling past the west on the
way to the south. He argued that I should have made my way into the busy
inside then try to get back out onto the outside to turn off. This would
be stupid. It’s far safer to stay on the outside all the way around

.......

Going all the way round a roundabout on the outside is just begging to be made
into roadkill!

"Richard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You come on from the east, want to get off at the south, and travel past
the west? Either you're mixing up your wests and easts, or you're
trying to use the gravitational slingshot approach to build up speed...

This got me thinking as well! At first it sounded like he may have been going the
wrong way round the roundabout!

"Caher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It’s far safer to stay on the outside all the way around
signalling as I go rather than weaving in and out.

Not necessarily so. Counterintuitive to many people, but hiding on the
left/outside of the roundabout puts you in danger.

(obviously I'm taking your 'weaving in and out' to mean 'using the correct
lane, that is the same one as you would in a car' here)

cheers,
clive

On 4/6/04 1:13 pm, in article [email hidden], "Adrian

Boliston said:

"Richard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You come on from the east, want to get off at the south, and travel past
the west? Either you're mixing up your wests and easts, or you're
trying to use the gravitational slingshot approach to build up speed...

This got me thinking as well! At first it sounded like he may have been going
the
wrong way round the roundabout!

Having been on the wrong side of the road 'because thats where the cycle
lane is'?

...d

Caher:

Quoted message said:

I was travelling past the west on the
way to the south.

You were travelling round the roundabout in an anticlockwise direction?

That's *definitely* wrong.

d.

David Martin said:

What do you mean by outside? LH or RH lane? If you are going right you
should be in the RH lane. Left, LH lane. Straight on, pick and mix.

No...cyclists and drivers of large vehicles are allowed to use the
outside all the way around, according to the HC. Personally I think
it's more risky.

davek said:

You were travelling round the roundabout in an anticlockwise direction?

That's *definitely* wrong.

Not here!

http://home.san.rr.com/roundabout/rndabout.jpg

I use it quite a lot. Pick an exit and pray.