red lights

wobbles said:

Hi Everyone,

I cycle with friends, sometimes with one, sometimes with more. They all have a
tendency to ride through red lights which I feel uncomfortable doing.
How do you manage this problem, or do some of you ride through red lights?

Obviously some lights are safer than others, depending on where they are and the
traffic conditions.
Not stopping also leads a bad example and probably helps give people like Clarkson
more ammunition.

I'm mainly a mountainbiker and find the streets of London quite intimidating at the
best of times.

Thanks W

I stop at the lights, but then anyone I cycle with (which aren't that
many) stop too for the same reasons.

Maybe stopping at them till they query what on earth you're doing (and
then enlightening them as to the light it puts cyclists in to car
drivers) might help, on the other hand they may scoff and ignore.

Personally I'd not go through the red lights regardless of what others
might do. There's always the chance they'll get it wrong, and that
leads to pain and expense, possibly worse.

--

Velvet

wobbles said:

I cycle with friends, sometimes with one, sometimes with more. They all have a
tendency to ride through red lights which I feel uncomfortable doing.
How do you manage this problem, or do some of you ride through red lights?

I don't. None of the folk I do cycle with play that game either, but
those I see doing it and subsequently catch up with I ask them to stop
because it gives /me/ a bad reputation.

Quoted message said:

Not stopping also leads a bad example and probably helps give people like Clarkson
more ammunition.

exactly, but not so much "people like Clarkson" as people like Mr and
Mrs John Average and their delightfully average 2.2 children. Those are
people you need on your side, because they'll be the ones driving around
basing their opinion of cyclists on the cyclists they see. If the
meejah have a rant it only strikes a chord where people see it happening
for real.
Any complaints about other road use abuses tend to get ignored if the
person moaning is seen not to practice the good behaviour they preach.
It is in the safety interests of cyclists to be beyond reproach in their
road use, both directly (not ending up embedded in the front of an HGV)
and indirectly (through being accorded due space, care and courtesy
earned by respect).

Quoted message said:

I'm mainly a mountainbiker and find the streets of London quite intimidating at the
best of times.

If you haven't done so, read Cyclecraft (ISBN: 0117020516), it's very
good for getting safer on real roads with real traffic.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

wobbles said:

Hi Everyone,

I cycle with friends, sometimes with one, sometimes with more. They all have a
tendency to ride through red lights which I feel uncomfortable doing.
How do you manage this problem, or do some of you ride through red lights?

You are traffic. Traffic lights pertain to you (and your friends) as
much as the cars, lorries and buses. Don't jump the lights - you (and/or
your friends) could easily end up dead - which is a bad thing.

--
Chris

Quoted message said:

I cycle with friends, sometimes with one, sometimes with more. They all have
a
tendency to ride through red lights which I feel uncomfortable doing.
How do you manage this problem, or do some of you ride through red lights?

There is no excuse for ignoring red lights. We cyclists are not excused
adhering to the law. Do not ride through red lights - it's illegal and it gets
we cyclists tarred with the brush of being "Lycra louts".

Cheers, helen s

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
to get correct one remove fame & fortune
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wobbles said:

Hi Everyone,

I cycle with friends, sometimes with one, sometimes with more. They all have a
tendency to ride through red lights which I feel uncomfortable doing.
How do you manage this problem, or do some of you ride through red lights?

Get friends who value your life.
--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "He is not only dull himself, he is the cause of dullness
in others." -Samuel Johnson
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

in message <[email hidden]>, wobbles <.>

('') said:

Hi Everyone,

I cycle with friends, sometimes with one, sometimes with more. They
all have a tendency to ride through red lights which I feel
uncomfortable doing. How do you manage this problem, or do some of you
ride through red lights?

Riding through red lights is *bloody* stupid. You suffer a good chance
of getting t-boned by a fast moving car and you aggravate the
ill-feeling of drivers towards cyclists. Don't do it. If your friends
do it, that's their funeral.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Iraq war: it's time for regime change...
... go now, Tony, while you can still go with dignity.

Thanks for your replies.
I don't know whether it's just a London thing but so many of the cyclists I see run
red lights. It sometimes makes me wonder whether I'm in a minority.

Anyway ditching my friends isn't possible, so I'll see what they have to say about
it. I know that one of them also finds it uncomfortable, so I think we all need to
have a chat.

Thanks
W

wobbles said:

I cycle with friends, sometimes with one, sometimes with more. They
all have a tendency to ride through red lights which I feel
uncomfortable doing.
How do you manage this problem, or do some of you ride through red
lights?

Stop where and when you want to, they will soon get the message and stop
and wait for/with you, if they /are/ friends.

Quoted message said:

Obviously some lights are safer than others, depending on where they
are and the traffic conditions.

Exactly. Some are as safe as doing anything on-road can be. Eg. Going
through a pedestrian crossing when it's utterly clear that there is
absolutely no-one around to cross over. People can say that you should
obey the law but they can't play the safety card. You have to negotiate
all sorts of other junctions without the dumb guidance of traffic lights,
just using your brain! Wow! Shouldn't be allowed!

Quoted message said:

Not stopping also leads a bad example and probably helps give people
like Clarkson more ammunition.

Nearly all motorists continually break the speed limit. Motorists break
one law, cyclists break another. So we're even on that score. I really
don't feel the need to "set an example" through artificial means. I don't
mow people down by going too fast or pollute the environment or congest
the roads. I'm already setting a good example just by being out on the
road on a bike.

Most people outside London haven't got a clue what it's like to cycle in a
place where there is so, so many traffic lights (which such long red waits
now) so read their "advice" with that in mind.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Nearly all motorists continually break the speed limit.

"continually" for "nearly all" just isn't fair. It isn't even
/possible/ a lot of the time in urban traffic.

Quoted message said:

Motorists break
one law, cyclists break another. So we're even on that score.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Added to which there's the problem that
there are a lot more motorists than cyclists, and the motorists are a
lot more dangerous to the cyclists than vice versa, so whatever your
sense of injustice tells you it makes /very/ good sense not to reinforce
prejudices when such actions will reduce the consideration and care with
which *all* cyclists are treated on the roads.

Quoted message said:

I'm already setting a good example just by being out on the
road on a bike.

I know that, you know that, but do /they/ know that? In many cases, no,
so it's not much use when push comes to shove and reality intrudes on
thought experiments..

Quoted message said:

Most people outside London haven't got a clue what it's like to cycle in a
place where there is so, so many traffic lights (which such long red waits
now) so read their "advice" with that in mind.

But one helluva lot of people /drive/ there and wait at them. I won't
condone the various amber-gambler, speeding, bad parking etc. but the
brutal facts of the matter is that typical driving style /is/ the way
the game is played and pointing out how green you are won't impress the
people who decide you cross reds blatantly well after they change so you
must be a [censored] and run you off the road. Or anyone else on a machine
like yours, as it stands to "reason" they'll think the same way.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Pete Biggs
<[email hidden]> breathed:

Quoted message said:

Most people outside London haven't got a clue what it's like to cycle in a
place where there is so, so many traffic lights (which such long red waits
now) so read their "advice" with that in mind.

I used to cycle to work in Glasgow, from Govanhill down Pollokshaws Road
to Shawlands. There are traffic lights every few yards through
Shawlands Cross, deliberately breaking up the road into lots of short
chunks, and changing very fast, as that was found to help the busses
pull out and also kept all the traffic moving.

--
- Pyromancer.
- http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk <-- Pagan Gothic Rock!
- http://www.littlematchgirl.co.uk <-- Electronic Metal!
- http://www.revival.stormshadow.com <-- The Gothic Revival.

Pete Biggs said:

Most people outside London haven't got a clue what it's like to cycle in a
place where there is so, so many traffic lights (which such long red waits
now) so read their "advice" with that in mind.

Only 15 years of cycling through London so I suppose I'm not very
experienced. Still don't jump red lights. Never did (deliberately), don't
intend to start now.

The time loss is minimal, and you can always treat them as interval training
if you want.

It is not necessary to jump red lights in the same way that it is not
necessary to break the speed limit in the car. If you are that worried about
being late, get fitter or get up earlier.

...d

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

Nearly all motorists continually break the speed limit.

"continually" for "nearly all" just isn't fair. It isn't even
/possible/ a lot of the time in urban traffic.

Most break the speed limit every few minutes, if not every few seconds.
That's close enough to "continual" for the sake of this argument.

It is easily possible for cars to accelerate up to 35+ mph between stops
in busy inner and central London, and they do.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Motorists break
one law, cyclists break another. So we're even on that score.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't think cyclists have to be more "right" than motorists. I just
don't accept that cyclists should have to "set an example". You may like
to (that's great) but I object to cyclists effectively being told they
must by other cyclists. It's a matter for the judgement and descretion of
both the individual and the authorities.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm already setting a good example just by being out on the
road on a bike.

I know that, you know that, but do /they/ know that?

Just the the presence of cyclists on the roads encourages others to cycle.
That's good enough, I reckon.

~PB

Pyromancer said:

Quoted message said:

Most people outside London haven't got a clue what it's like to
cycle in a place where there is so, so many traffic lights (which
such long red waits now) so read their "advice" with that in mind.

I used to cycle to work in Glasgow, from Govanhill down Pollokshaws
Road to Shawlands. There are traffic lights every few yards through
Shawlands Cross, deliberately breaking up the road into lots of short
chunks, and changing very fast, as that was found to help the busses
pull out and also kept all the traffic moving.

Yes I did just say "most people", not all. However, having frequent
traffic lights in a relatively small city is one thing, having loads in an
area the size of London is another, at least when cycling more than a very
few miles.

~PB

David Martin said:

The time loss is minimal, and you can always treat them as interval
training if you want.

I disagree. Waiting time on an 8 mile journey, for instance, adds up
considerably. I will time it sometime.

Quoted message said:

It is not necessary to jump red lights in the same way that it is not
necessary to break the speed limit in the car. If you are that
worried about being late, get fitter or get up earlier.

That's right, that's fine, it's not necessary. I also don't think it's
necessary to stop at every single red light (or at least wait there the
whole time it's red). They also don't think it's necessary in some other
countries where it's permitted to go through in certain circumstances.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

That's right, that's fine, it's not necessary. I also don't think it's
necessary to stop at every single red light (or at least wait there the
whole time it's red). They also don't think it's necessary in some other
countries where it's permitted to go through in certain circumstances.

They think it necessary to put people to death for committing murder in
some other countries in certain circumstances. They probably pay less for
their fish too.

Colin

Colin Blackburn said:

Quoted message said:

They also don't think it's
necessary in some other countries where it's permitted to go through
in certain circumstances.

They think it necessary to put people to death for committing murder
in some other countries in certain circumstances. They probably pay
less for their fish too.

Apparently it works well in north America where you're allowed to turn
right (like turning left here) if there's nothing coming.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

I don't think cyclists have to be more "right" than motorists. I just
don't accept that cyclists should have to "set an example". You may like
to (that's great) but I object to cyclists effectively being told they
must by other cyclists.

I object to people increasing my chances of getting killed by
inconsiderate behaviour, which is entirely possible on the roads. Since
I like to look after #1 as my primary priority that overrides any
consideration of being nice and "setting examples".

Quoted message said:

It's a matter for the judgement and descretion of
both the individual and the authorities.

My judgment as an individual is that poor behaviour by other cyclists
affects *me* when I'm cycling. I *greatly* resent that other people
being thoughtless rubs off on how I am treated.

Quoted message said:

Just the the presence of cyclists on the roads encourages others to cycle.

Only if they're seen in a positive light. And the glow of red ones
they've just ridden through does *not* pass muster, because the
perception is it's stupid and dangerous and people don't want to think
of themselves as queuing up to do stupid and dangerous things and be
associated with stupid and dangerous people.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Pete Biggs said:

Apparently it works well in north America where you're allowed to turn
right (like turning left here) if there's nothing coming.

Only in some states. I drove from MD to NY once -- no can do in NY -- too
difficult for peds in NYC to tell whether a car would turn the corner or
not, I suppose.

Pete Biggs said:

David Martin said:

The time loss is minimal, and you can always treat them as interval
training if you want.

I disagree. Waiting time on an 8 mile journey, for instance, adds up
considerably. I will time it sometime.

On the grand scheme of things it takes very little time. FWIW I used to
commute 13 miles each way through London. Jumping red lights was not
something I did and I still made it to wherever I was going.
If you do time it, do so over a few weeks to get a reasonable distribution
of times.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is not necessary to jump red lights in the same way that it is not
necessary to break the speed limit in the car. If you are that
worried about being late, get fitter or get up earlier.

That's right, that's fine, it's not necessary. I also don't think it's
necessary to stop at every single red light (or at least wait there the
whole time it's red). They also don't think it's necessary in some other
countries where it's permitted to go through in certain circumstances.

Some people don't think it's necessary to give way to cyclists because they
don't pay road tax. Some don't feel it's necessary to park where they are
not obstructing other road users. Roads operate successfully due to an
implicit social contract. Why do you think you can break that when you would
be most put out if others did what they wanted?

...d