Cornering - how?

hippy:

Quoted message said:

How do you guys corner on fast descents?

Is your body on the same vertical axis as the
bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike
into the corner and keep you body more upright?
Or maybe even lean your body and keep the
bike upright (strange?).

Quoted message said:

I seem to constantly understeer and run wide
on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering
if my technique needs some work...

The nature of the surface, the tyres, and your speed are the factors to
consider, obviously. A lot of the time though it's fear of skidding
which keeps people from taking a turn in the sharpest and quickest way;
having skidded a few times by taking some turns too fast, I'm a little
more cautious these days and it now takes effort to get over the mental
barrier that screams "You're going too fast, fool!".

Only experience can enable you to judge turns you encounter. I've seen
some cyclists stick their knees out on the inside of a turn, like
motorcyclists do on the track, perhaps thinking to lower their CG; I
think it's unnecessary and can only add a scraped kneecap to their list
of injuries should they skid. Round cross-section tyres will also fare
better in sharp turns; many MTB tyres don't have this.

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The nature of the surface, the tyres, and your speed are the factors

to

Quoted message said:

consider, obviously. A lot of the time though it's fear of skidding
which keeps people from taking a turn in the sharpest and quickest

way;

Quoted message said:

having skidded a few times by taking some turns too fast, I'm a little
more cautious these days and it now takes effort to get over the

mental

Quoted message said:

barrier that screams "You're going too fast, fool!".

So, exactly "what to lean" is more a matter of each corner's character
than a catch-all "always lean bike AND rider" or "lean bike NOT rider"?

hippy

"hippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How do you guys corner on fast descents?

Is your body on the same vertical axis as the
bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike
into the corner and keep you body more upright?
Or maybe even lean your body and keep the
bike upright (strange?).

I seem to constantly understeer and run wide
on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering
if my technique needs some work...

hippy

Hey hippy.....

Hutchinson Mosquitos......'nuff said!

hippy:

Quoted message said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The nature of the surface, the tyres, and your speed are the factors

to

Quoted message said:

consider, obviously. A lot of the time though it's fear of skidding
which keeps people from taking a turn in the sharpest and quickest

way;

Quoted message said:

having skidded a few times by taking some turns too fast, I'm a little
more cautious these days and it now takes effort to get over the

mental

Quoted message said:

barrier that screams "You're going too fast, fool!".

So, exactly "what to lean" is more a matter of each corner's character
than a catch-all "always lean bike AND rider" or "lean bike NOT rider"?

You must always lean into the turn to have the desired effect on your
steering; ask tandem riders if one of them had ever tried to counter the
lean on a turn while the other didn't, and they will tell you that it
always throws the steering off.

It wouldn't be possible to lean a bike while keeping yourself upright on
a reasonably fast turn. Part of your weight will counteract the
steering because the force vector acting through the CG of the
rider/bike system will not be lined up with the tyres. The effect is
that you will be trying to pull the bike upright while turning,
straightening the front wheel. Going the other way, that is, trying to
keep the bike upright while leaning yourself will also not work because
a bike initiates turns by leaning; you won't be able to turn at speed if
the bike does not lean.

How much to lean to achieve the sharpest turn is dictated by your speed
and traction; this is where experience helps judgement and overcoming
fear.

"Bob Incognito"
<[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:3fb9a507@news1...

Quoted message said:

Hey hippy.....

Hutchinson Mosquitos......'nuff said!

I was thinking about road bikes, but...

What are these tyres suited to? I need
some new XC tyres for the 24hr (If
we get organised!).

These are UST though I think, do they
have a non-UST brother?

hippy

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It wouldn't be possible to lean a bike while keeping yourself upright

on

Quoted message said:

a reasonably fast turn. Part of your weight will counteract the
steering because the force vector acting through the CG of the
rider/bike system will not be lined up with the tyres. The effect is

I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared"
that I could turn sharper if I tried to "push" the bike down
without leaning with it.
My normal turn style (geddit turnstyle?! yeesh! :-P) involves
leaning with the bike. The modified way, which seemed faster
didn't seem to have me leaning as far over into the corner.
I'm not sure if it was faster or how I did it, exactly, but you
think I should just lean with the bike?
I don't really like the idea of crossing onto the wrong side
of the road at 70kph.. practise makes perfect I guess...I
wish I could judge corners better, damnit!

hippy

hippy:

Quoted message said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It wouldn't be possible to lean a bike while keeping yourself upright

on

Quoted message said:

a reasonably fast turn. Part of your weight will counteract the
steering because the force vector acting through the CG of the
rider/bike system will not be lined up with the tyres. The effect is

I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared"
that I could turn sharper if I tried to "push" the bike down
without leaning with it.

I don't understand what you mean by this, and how fast were you going?

"hippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

How do you guys corner on fast descents?

Is your body on the same vertical axis as the
bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike
into the corner and keep you body more upright?
Or maybe even lean your body and keep the
bike upright (strange?).

On the road (motorbike and pushie) I lean my body to the inside of the
corner. This is because it reduces the amount the bike has to lean
and keeps the steering geometry and suspension (active or passive) in
it's best position.
It's much easier to do this if you can guarantee good surface and
don't have to worry about line changes.

Off road I have a tendancy to keep my body upright and lean the bike.
This is mainly so I can repsond quicker to bumps or line changes, the
bike shifts quicker than I can.

Quoted message said:

I seem to constantly understeer and run wide
on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering
if my technique needs some work...

I found from motorcycling that a good firm countersteering input to
keep the bike/body leaned over will cure the understeering, although
don't go too far or you'll lowside.

"hippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How do you guys corner on fast descents?

Is your body on the same vertical axis as the
bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike
into the corner and keep you body more upright?
Or maybe even lean your body and keep the
bike upright (strange?).

I seem to constantly understeer and run wide
on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering
if my technique needs some work...

hippy

from De Long's guide to bicycles and bicycling
Lean in or out on turns??
Pressing the handlebars down in the direction you want to turn starts the
bank,
and the gyroscopic action then turns the wheel in the proper direction to
give
maximum turning capability. In the case of a back wheel slide, you will be
able
to correct the increase in bank by pulling the bicycle in line with your
body. If,
on the other hand, you want to maintain full power during a trun, leaning in
well
decrease the chance of your pedals striking the ground.

you could also try a little rear brake, that turns you more(just dont lock
the rear,
that turns you a lot. lol)
front brake makes the bike not want to turn(are you using front brake while
in
the turn? that would explain the understeer and running wide)

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared"
that I could turn sharper if I tried to "push" the bike down
without leaning with it.

I don't understand what you mean by this, and how fast were you going?

From 30kph to 50kph? Maybe more.. coming down
from the Dandenongs and a crit race.

What I mean is:
Say I'm turning around a left-hander, I would usually lean
my body AND my bike left at the same angle. i.e. my
body goes from | to \ and the bike goes from | to \.
Body and bike on the same lean angle.

What I was messing with was trying to lean the bike
to the left but resisting this lean with my body. So, my
body would not lean as far left as my bike.

Bike leans from | to \
Body doesn't lean | stays |

It's probably not _that_ pronounced but it just seems like
the bike leans into the corner but my body doesn't.

hippy

somehow this ended up under the leg shaving thread, so reposting...

I used to lean the body, but having some confidence issues on my new bike,
and don't lean as far as I used to...

Mostly I'm chickening out more, but then again, these days I know it will
hurt more...

I think it largely depends on how sticky your tyres are... I am running
Michelin Pro-Race rubber at the moment, and when hot, they are sticky as
hell, but when cold, and/or wet, they are slippery as all buggery...

I have heard that the Vittoria Rubina Pro's (from the guy at the shop, when
I was talking to him earlier today) are a lot better in the wet than the
Michelins...

I think that a compact frame (if you're on one) makes it that little bit
harder to corner fast, due to the small rear triangle... My old bikes
(Gitane Allure - circa 1982) and Avanti Corsa (1998) were a lot faster on
corners, but neither were compacts...

"hippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How do you guys corner on fast descents?

Is your body on the same vertical axis as the
bike while leaning in or do you lean the bike
into the corner and keep you body more upright?
Or maybe even lean your body and keep the
bike upright (strange?).

I seem to constantly understeer and run wide
on fast, downhill corners and I'm wondering
if my technique needs some work...

hippy

Andrew Morris:

Quoted message said:

I think that a compact frame (if you're on one) makes it that little bit
harder to corner fast, due to the small rear triangle... My old bikes
(Gitane Allure - circa 1982) and Avanti Corsa (1998) were a lot faster on
corners, but neither were compacts...

That's not what hyper-marketers will have you believe though. The drive
for manufacturers to churn out smaller frames with the shortest
chainstays possible has been all about claims of faster cornering and
greater maneouverability. I don't think there's merit to it.

hippy:

Quoted message said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared"
that I could turn sharper if I tried to "push" the bike down
without leaning with it.

I don't understand what you mean by this, and how fast were you going?

From 30kph to 50kph? Maybe more.. coming down
from the Dandenongs and a crit race.

What I mean is:
Say I'm turning around a left-hander, I would usually lean
my body AND my bike left at the same angle. i.e. my
body goes from | to \ and the bike goes from | to \.
Body and bike on the same lean angle.

What I was messing with was trying to lean the bike
to the left but resisting this lean with my body. So, my
body would not lean as far left as my bike.

Bike leans from | to \
Body doesn't lean | stays |

It's probably not _that_ pronounced but it just seems like
the bike leans into the corner but my body doesn't.

I think that if you were doing this to any significant extent, you will
feel the bike straightening up, resulting in a wider turn, or you will
encounter problems with the balancing act: while on the turn, with the
bike leaning into the turn, you'll have to lean the bike a little more
if you try to get your body upright to compensate for the shift in CG,
and might throw off your steering.

I haven't tried doing this on tight corners though; get a friend to look
at your body angle next time you attempt it.

stu:

Quoted message said:

from De Long's guide to bicycles and bicycling
Lean in or out on turns??
Pressing the handlebars down in the direction you want to turn starts the
bank,
and the gyroscopic action then turns the wheel in the proper direction to
give
maximum turning capability. In the case of a back wheel slide, you will be
able
to correct the increase in bank by pulling the bicycle in line with your
body. If,
on the other hand, you want to maintain full power during a trun, leaning in
well
decrease the chance of your pedals striking the ground.

you could also try a little rear brake, that turns you more(just dont lock
the rear,
that turns you a lot. lol)
front brake makes the bike not want to turn(are you using front brake while
in
the turn? that would explain the understeer and running wide)

This reads like a lot of [censored]. Turning requires leaning the bike first
before doing anything to the handlebars. The rider moves the handlebar
and controls the lean to determine the turn radius; I don't see how
gyroscopic action of the wheels even figure into it.

Braking either front or rear wheel shortens the turn radius simply by
slowing you down.

Jose Rizal <_@_._> wrote in message
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

stu:

Quoted message said:

from De Long's guide to bicycles and bicycling
Lean in or out on turns??
Pressing the handlebars down in the direction you want to turn
starts the bank,
and the gyroscopic action then turns the wheel in the proper
direction to give
maximum turning capability. In the case of a back wheel slide, you
will be able
to correct the increase in bank by pulling the bicycle in line with
your body. If,
on the other hand, you want to maintain full power during a trun,
leaning in well
decrease the chance of your pedals striking the ground.

you could also try a little rear brake, that turns you more(just
dont lock the rear,
that turns you a lot. lol)
front brake makes the bike not want to turn(are you using front
brake while in
the turn? that would explain the understeer and running wide)

This reads like a lot of [censored]. Turning requires leaning the bike
first before doing anything to the handlebars. The rider moves the

No, it doesn't. The moment you push on the handlebars on the side of the
direction in which you want to go (ie, push on the left side of the bars to
go left) the bike will tilt and start to turn left. This is called
counter-steering.

Quoted message said:

handlebar and controls the lean to determine the turn radius; I don't
see how gyroscopic action of the wheels even figure into it.

Essentially, any turn of this nature is a process of the bike continuously
"falling" into the corner. The gyroscopic action of the wheels is what
keeps it from actually falling onto the ground.

Quoted message said:

Braking either front or rear wheel shortens the turn radius simply by
slowing you down.

You should always try to never brake in a corner, always before. You
probably have more leeway with a bike because it's so light but it's
inherently bad technique.

--

A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

DRS:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

handlebar and controls the lean to determine the turn radius; I don't
see how gyroscopic action of the wheels even figure into it.

Essentially, any turn of this nature is a process of the bike continuously
"falling" into the corner. The gyroscopic action of the wheels is what
keeps it from actually falling onto the ground.

No, the momentum of the rider/bike, counteracted by the traction of the
tyres is what keeps the rider from falling over. This is why the faster
the turn is taken, the greater the lean required. If what you say is
true, then one can take a turn at a set lean angle regardless of speed.
This is clearly not true.

The way to maintain the turn is to counter steer.

Say you are going round a left hander

You start to lean left (into the bend) and stear to the right. The bike
drops into
the bend, the handle bars staighten and round you go!

This works great on a motorcycle. On a push bike you need to keep you weight
above the bikes
bottom bracket to maintain the grip. i.e you lean the bike more than the
body!

Stange but ture!

Cheers,

Philip

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

hippy:

Quoted message said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

> I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared"
> that I could turn sharper if I tried to "push" the bike down
> without leaning with it.

I don't understand what you mean by this, and how fast were you going?

From 30kph to 50kph? Maybe more.. coming down
from the Dandenongs and a crit race.

What I mean is:
Say I'm turning around a left-hander, I would usually lean
my body AND my bike left at the same angle. i.e. my
body goes from | to \ and the bike goes from | to \.
Body and bike on the same lean angle.

What I was messing with was trying to lean the bike
to the left but resisting this lean with my body. So, my
body would not lean as far left as my bike.

Bike leans from | to \
Body doesn't lean | stays |

It's probably not _that_ pronounced but it just seems like
the bike leans into the corner but my body doesn't.

I think that if you were doing this to any significant extent, you will
feel the bike straightening up, resulting in a wider turn, or you will
encounter problems with the balancing act: while on the turn, with the
bike leaning into the turn, you'll have to lean the bike a little more
if you try to get your body upright to compensate for the shift in CG,
and might throw off your steering.

I haven't tried doing this on tight corners though; get a friend to look
at your body angle next time you attempt it.

It works on a motorcycle because the mass of the motorcycle is greater
than the rider. This method is ok on an mtb at very very slow speeds to
turn around (180 degrees) without much room.

Philip said:

The way to maintain the turn is to counter steer.

Say you are going round a left hander

You start to lean left (into the bend) and stear to the right. The bike
drops into
the bend, the handle bars staighten and round you go!

This works great on a motorcycle. On a push bike you need to keep you weight
above the bikes
bottom bracket to maintain the grip. i.e you lean the bike more than the
body!

Stange but ture!

Cheers,

Philip

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

hippy:

Quoted message said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>>I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared"
>>that I could turn sharper if I tried to "push" the bike down
>>without leaning with it.
>
>I don't understand what you mean by this, and how fast were you going?

From 30kph to 50kph? Maybe more.. coming down
from the Dandenongs and a crit race.

What I mean is:
Say I'm turning around a left-hander, I would usually lean
my body AND my bike left at the same angle. i.e. my
body goes from | to \ and the bike goes from | to \.
Body and bike on the same lean angle.

What I was messing with was trying to lean the bike
to the left but resisting this lean with my body. So, my
body would not lean as far left as my bike.

Bike leans from | to \
Body doesn't lean | stays |

It's probably not _that_ pronounced but it just seems like
the bike leans into the corner but my body doesn't.

I think that if you were doing this to any significant extent, you will
feel the bike straightening up, resulting in a wider turn, or you will
encounter problems with the balancing act: while on the turn, with the
bike leaning into the turn, you'll have to lean the bike a little more
if you try to get your body upright to compensate for the shift in CG,
and might throw off your steering.

I haven't tried doing this on tight corners though; get a friend to look
at your body angle next time you attempt it.

hippy <[email hidden]> wrote:

: I was messing around with this the other day and it "appeared"
: that I could turn sharper if I tried to "push" the bike down
: without leaning with it.
: My normal turn style (geddit turnstyle?! yeesh! :-P) involves
: leaning with the bike. The modified way, which seemed faster
: didn't seem to have me leaning as far over into the corner.
: I'm not sure if it was faster or how I did it, exactly, but you
: think I should just lean with the bike?
: I don't really like the idea of crossing onto the wrong side
: of the road at 70kph.. practise makes perfect I guess...I
: wish I could judge corners better, damnit!

From my motorbike racing days of old, it certainly was faster and
felt right to hang off the inside of the bike and keep it relatively
vertical through a corner.

Dynamics are obviously different on a bicycle, but it still
feels better to hang somewhat off the bike. I don't like the
idea of negotiating a flat-out downhill on the side of a bicycle
tyre. Either way, any corner is taken both by the bike and you,
so it makes sense to have that frame of mind when hurtling into
one. In other words, you need to learn, by experimenting with
body position, lines, etc, how you and the bike are most balanced.

Vector analysis will certainly show the forces involved but no amount
of 'theory' can inform one's body without the real life experience.

It seemed pretty obvious that the people who could get around
corners fastest on a racing motorcycle were the ones with the
least fear of injury or death. And, yes, they did eventually
crash. The point being that the only way of knowing the limit
of corner speed is to exceed it then subsequently go slightly
slower than that.

Cheerz,
Lynzz