TDF understanding

Milton said:

This is the first year im taking more than the usual notice of the TDF as
both my boys (13 & 11yrs) have taken up cycling (Midland Club, WA)
Im trying to make sense of it all.
How do the sprints work in each stage .
does every body stop & do standing starts or do the sprinters somehow make
it to the front of the 200 strong peleton & do a rolling sprint ?????????

G'day Milton,
No-one does standing starts nor waits for anyone (unless its an
important team mate), its first over the line and nothing else to it.
Yes, sprinters just make sure they're at the pointy end on the bunch
when the time comes. If they aren't, tough. Stuart O'Grady says he makes
sure he starts making his way to the front with 40km to go. McEwen just
stays near the front most the race - he has the intermediate sprints to
worry about. It is a very tactical sport.

There are intermediate sprints at various points along the course, with
time bonuses, 6,4 and 2 seconds for 1st,2nd,3rd (& goes towards Green
jersey points). The riders know where they are and the fast guys start
jockeying for position as they approach.

Infact McGee lost the yellow jersey today because some Frenchman (Nazon)
accrued 8 or 10 seconds going for those intermediates...

Quoted message said:

If only they telecast it live as there is [censored] all on during the early hours
which i think is when it would be on, (tape it)
Im sure even a non cyclist would rather watch it than paid advertising/[censored]
& more people would be the wise to how it works & cycling would grow in
Oz.........

Mil

Actually, each stage is over by 11pm WA time. Live would suit us here.

There is an FAQ on the Tour here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/tour03/?id=features/FAQ

Hope this helps

GK

Milton said:

This is the first year im taking more than the usual notice of the TDF
as both my boys (13 & 11yrs) have taken up cycling (Midland Club, WA)
Im trying to make sense of it all. How do the sprints work in each
stage . does every body stop & do standing starts or do the sprinters
somehow make it to the front of the 200 strong peleton & do a rolling
sprint ?????????
If only they telecast it live as there is **** all on during the early
hours which i think is when it would be on, (tape it) Im sure even a non
cyclist would rather watch it than paid advertising/[censored] & more people
would be the wise to how it works & cycling would grow in Oz.........
Mil

Milton,

Each Sunday night, SBS is telecasting entire stages live in Sydney from
10:50pm EST. If they have it over your way, you won't even have to stay
up late to watch it !!! Check out your TV guide.

I'm planning to have the indoor trainer set up and get a good 2 hr
session in each week !!

Regards, Harrow.

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Quoted message said:

There is an FAQ on the Tour here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/tour03/?id=features/FAQ

That is a great FAQ as far as it goes, but I'd also like to know:

- why are the green, white, and polka-dot jerseys coloured that way (the
explanation for yellow being widely known)?

- why do Phil and Paul (the commentators) say "there's no breeze to cool
the riders today" when the peloton is going 50 km/h and therefore
generating their own apparent wind? (or even more absurdly, if there
were a strong tailwind, the riders would feel little or no relative
breeze at all, so P&P's comment makes little apparent sense)

- what kind of gearing do the top sprinters use for the flat stages? I'm
pretty sure the top gear on my road bike (52 x 14) would be useless
(i.e. way too low) at the 70km/h quoted for these guys in the finish
straight.

- when a rider qualifies for several jerseys on one day, is he actually
given one of each of those jerseys to keep? And the next day, when the
lesser jerseys for which he qualifies can be worn by the riders coming
second in those categories, do those riders get to keep those jerseys
even though they weren't leading that competition at the time? And how
do they decide which jersey is "lesser", e.g. what if a rider held both
the green and the KOM?

- when finishing a time trial, why don't all the riders sprint for the
last few 100 metres (thus using up their alactic reserves, of which you
only have 30 seconds or so)? I'm talking about the real TT contenders,
not the guys saving themselves for later stages. And if they've given
everything they've got, why don't you see them throwing up afterwards
like real human beings? :-)

- I've heard that many riders dislike the rest days because they disrupt
the daily routine of racing - is this for real? (me, I dislike the rest
days because SBS just rehashes the nightly coverage I've already seen)

- why in the flat-out sprint that Cookey won (Stage 2) are almost all
the riders still in the saddle (see
http://www.sportal.com.au/photos/wallpaper/000114img800.jpg)? That
sprint was really close, and Cookey's just crossed the line, so it's not
because they have sat up already.

Phew, that's enough for now - anyone know any answers please?

TIA,

&roo

Andrew Swan said:

Quoted message said:

There is an FAQ on the Tour here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/tour03/?id=features/FAQ

Quoted message said:

That is a great FAQ as far as it goes, but I'd also like to know:

Quoted message said:

- why are the green, white, and polka-dot jerseys coloured that way (the
explanation for yellow being widely known)?

<snip>

Quoted message said:

TIA,

Quoted message said:

&roo

No answers, but I'd like to know who makes all the jerseys and how many
do they make?

eg. there are the 'fake' jerseys used on the podium which zip all the way up
the back, but on the following day, the riders will wear a 'real' yellow/green/
white/polka dot jersey with their team logos on it.

So, do the teams make their own jerseys and hope that they actually win the
right to wear them? And then there are the riders who wear the full kit,
like Brad McGee wearing the yellow jersey and yellow knicks.

Anyone?

--
Nick

Quoted message said:

- why do Phil and Paul (the commentators) say "there's no breeze to cool
the riders today" when the peloton is going 50 km/h and therefore
generating their own apparent wind? (or even more absurdly, if there
were a strong tailwind, the riders would feel little or no relative
breeze at all, so P&P's comment makes little apparent sense)

Dunno. Slipstreaming?

Quoted message said:

- when a rider qualifies for several jerseys on one day, is he actually
given one of each of those jerseys to keep? And the next day, when the
lesser jerseys for which he qualifies can be worn by the riders coming
second in those categories, do those riders get to keep those jerseys
even though they weren't leading that competition at the time? And how
do they decide which jersey is "lesser", e.g. what if a rider held both
the green and the KOM?

If a rider holds more than one jersey, the official ranking order for
wearing them is yellow, green, polka dot, white. Check out www.letour.fr for
more info on the jerseys & how they are awarded.

Here's my answers to some of your questions:

Q. Why do Phil and Paul (the commentators) say "there's no breeze to
cool the riders today" when the peloton is going 50 km/h and
therefore generating their own apparent wind?

R. They're really saying that the air is still and hence hot, whereas if
the weather is hot but a cool breeze is there (eg. riding along a
coast line), it feels much cooler.

S. What kind of gearing do the top sprinters use for the flat
stages? I'm pretty sure the top gear on my road bike (52 x 14)
would be useless
(S.a. way too low) at the 70km/h quoted for these guys in the
finish straight.

T. Unless you can spin really fast, a 52 x 14 might not even win a D
grade bunch sprint. They're using 53x11 to 55x11 type gears, with
cadences in the 100-130 range.

U. When finishing a time trial, why don't all the riders sprint for the
last few 100 metres (thus using up their alactic reserves, of which
you only have 30 seconds or so)? I'm talking about the real TT
contenders, not the guys saving themselves for later stages. And if
they've given everything they've got, why don't you see them throwing
up afterwards like real human beings? :-)

V. Did you see McGee after the time trial? He was practically delirious
and couldnt stand up. They use every last bit of strength, but its
hard to sprint when you've just ridden 6km at closeto your maximum.

W. Why in the flat-out sprint that Cookey won (Stage 2) are almost all
the riders still in the saddle (see http://www.sportal.com.au/photos-
/wallpaper/000114img800.jpg)?http://www.sportal.com.au/photos/wallpa-
per/000114img800.jpg)? That sprint was really close, and Cookey's
just crossed the line, so it's not because they have sat up already.

X. Try spinning above about 120 in the saddle. Very hard. Hence, you
always see track riders sprint out of the saddle to jump away, then
sit down once the cadence gets high. (Our track coach makes us do 400
metre flat out efforts out of the saddle, and towards the end it
becomes close to impossible unless you are in a huge gear). And BTW,
Cookie won by about almost a metre, which is not particularly close.
Hence, he had time to sit up for the photo on the line.

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It seems to me the only guys who have a chance are the sprinters.
Everyone drafts in the peleton all day, and then the sprinters blast
away and get the glory.

Why do the other guys even bother turning up?

Harrow. 😕

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"Harrow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

It seems to me the only guys who have a chance are the sprinters.
Everyone drafts in the peleton all day, and then the sprinters blast
away and get the glory.

Why do the other guys even bother turning up?

The Tour is, and has almost always been, a teams event ie. riders ride to
support and assist the rider in their team who has the best chance of a
victory (stage or overall).

As for the sprinters, in France they have these things called the Alps.
Watch the sprinters die once they get there.

I recall one of Lance Armstrongs wins last year in the Pyrenees IIRC. He was
riding with a couple of other riders (one may have been Virenque?) leading
them up the climb, with the peleton a little way back. After a good distance
up the climb, but 5km or so to go to the finish, Lance just stood on the
pedals and kept going. The distraught look on the face of the rider behind
him was very telling. The pace on the climb just burnt them out.

Cheers
Peter

Cheers
Peter

Harrow said:

It seems to me the only guys who have a chance are the sprinters.
Everyone drafts in the peleton all day, and then the sprinters blast
away and get the glory.

Why do the other guys even bother turning up?

Harrow. 😕

Because sprinters are only good on flat stages, it is their only chance
for glory. The others are biding their time for the TT and the
mountains. A chance for non-sprinters (in flat stages) is to break away
and solo for 100 to 200km to the finish which guys have tried to do the
last few days without success. But over the years, some have succeeded.
Sprinters usually aren't any good at 100km+ solos. They can't win
overall either.

GK

"RMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Peter Signorini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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[snip]>

Quoted message said:

I recall one of Lance Armstrongs wins last year in the Pyrenees IIRC. He

was

Quoted message said:

riding with a couple of other riders <snip>

I think that was on Mt Ventoux vs Beloki, after Beloki's one and only
attempt to drop Lance. Like his "look" at Ulrich, a couple of years back,

a

Quoted message said:

real defining moment.

Oh, that was it. Riding with Ulrich when he looked at him, then stood up and
took off. Ulrich tried to respond but didn't have a chance. Lance rode on to
win.

No point in riding in the peleton there, nor waiting for the 'final sprint'.
If you don't have a climber's stamina to keep attacking all the way up the
climb the final 100m sprint is meaningless.

Cheers
Peter

Chipo (as he likes to be called) often goes home after the flat stages
have been completed as he hates the mountains.

Maybe that had something to do with him not receiving an invite to the
tour this year. Just a thought. :o)

Cheers

John

g said:

Harrow said:

It seems to me the only guys who have a chance are the sprinters.
Everyone drafts in the peleton all day, and then the sprinters blast
away and get the glory.

Why do the other guys even bother turning up?

Harrow. 😕

Because sprinters are only good on flat stages, it is their only chance
for glory. The others are biding their time for the TT and the
mountains. A chance for non-sprinters (in flat stages) is to break away
and solo for 100 to 200km to the finish which guys have tried to do the
last few days without success. But over the years, some have succeeded.
Sprinters usually aren't any good at 100km+ solos. They can't win
overall either.

GK

It's very early days I know....but I can't help but be impressed with
how Ullrich is performing atm....making this assumption on limited
footage I know but he's placing very well and looks very comfortable and
no hint of the podge around the old middle as some unflattering pics
have shown.

If he keeps this up he could well give Armstrong a run for his money as
some have predicted. Armstrong himself has said that Ullrich is a
threat.

I'm enjoying the TdF so far and can't wait to watch the full stages on
tv.

Cheers

John

Peter Signorini said:

"RMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Signorini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
[snip]>

Quoted message said:

I recall one of Lance Armstrongs wins last year in the Pyrenees IIRC. He

was

Quoted message said:

riding with a couple of other riders <snip>

I think that was on Mt Ventoux vs Beloki, after Beloki's one and only
attempt to drop Lance. Like his "look" at Ulrich, a couple of years back,

a

Quoted message said:

real defining moment.

Oh, that was it. Riding with Ulrich when he looked at him, then stood up and
took off. Ulrich tried to respond but didn't have a chance. Lance rode on to
win.

No point in riding in the peleton there, nor waiting for the 'final sprint'.
If you don't have a climber's stamina to keep attacking all the way up the
climb the final 100m sprint is meaningless.

Cheers
Peter

Shabby said:

Here's my answers to some of your questions:

Thanks indeedy.

Quoted message said:

T. Unless you can spin really fast, a 52 x 14 might not even win a D
grade bunch sprint. They're using 53x11 to 55x11 type gears, with
cadences in the 100-130 range.

Ah, that explains why I never win any sprints (I'm actually in D grade).
I'd like to believe it's because I always run out of gears, yes, that
must be it. :-)

Quoted message said:

<snip> Our track coach makes us do 400
metre flat out efforts out of the saddle, and towards the end it
becomes close to impossible unless you are in a huge gear).

Sounds like you're not that "Shabby" at all.

&roo
Honorary Life Member, "D" Grade

am 09.07.03 schrieb Andrew:

Quoted message said:

- why are the green, white, and polka-dot jerseys coloured that way (the
explanation for yellow being widely known)?

yellow (or maillot jaune) it the rider who did the tour in the shortest
time

withe (maillot blanche) best of the young drives (up to 25 years) time
counts here

green (maillot verte) best sprinter, the one who has collected most points

withe with red dots ist for the best climber (will be intersseting, wenn
the alpes and pyraenees come up). The rider who gots most points at the
climbs will get ist.

if a has the yellow jersey and is leader eg. at young drivers he must wear
the yellow. The second will than wear the withe.

If a driver ist national champion, he must wear the national champion
trikot. if he is world champion on road racing he must wear the world
champion trikot. If someone ist world champion at time trail he must wear
the world champion time trail jersey at a time trail, but never at a
regular road race. If somone don't do it he must pay and perhaps he can be
expellet from the race - that in the rules for the Tour.

Andrew Swan said:

Ah, that explains why I never win any sprints (I'm actually in D grade).
I'd like to believe it's because I always run out of gears, yes, that
must be it. :-)

Just to clarify a bit, you need to be able to spin big gear. If you are
really running out of gears, get another cog. But a lot of people make
the mistake of putting it in a big gear and trying to wind it up. A
52x14 propels you at 60kph if you're doing 120rpm, so you might need a
12 or 13 to get you that slight bit faster, unless you like to spin.
(From memory my max speeds were around 65 in D grade crits when I won -
in a 53 x 13 which is around 120rpm.)

Your ideal sprint (assuming it's at least a couple of hundred metres
long) is to hit your maximum cadence on or very close to the line.
Sprinting isn't completely about going fast, you need to go fast at the
right moment. Too big a gear means you'll miss the start of the sprint
and it will all be over, too small means you have to change gears mid
sprint to stop going backwards.

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"Shabby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Andrew Swan said:

Ah, that explains why I never win any sprints (I'm actually in D

grade).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd like to believe it's because I always run out of gears, yes, that
must be it. :-)

Just to clarify a bit, you need to be able to spin big gear. If you are
really running out of gears, get another cog. But a lot of people make
the mistake of putting it in a big gear and trying to wind it up. A
52x14 propels you at 60kph if you're doing 120rpm, so you might need a
12 or 13 to get you that slight bit faster, unless you like to spin.
(From memory my max speeds were around 65 in D grade crits when I won -
in a 53 x 13 which is around 120rpm.)

Man that is some D grade crit. 65 kmh sprint in most grades will score you
a win, sheesh, Cipo's max was approx 70 kmh at Zolder last year.

Quoted message said:

white: best of the young drives (up to 25 years) time counts here

green: best sprinter, the one who has collected most points

white with red dots: is for the best climber (will be interesting, when
the Alps and Pyrenees come up). The rider who gets most points at the
climbs will get it.

Yes, but why are they white, green, and white with red dots? Why not
purple, brown, and blue with pink stripes (for example)? There must be
some historical reason for choosing those colours.

Quoted message said:

If a driver is national champion, he must wear the national champion
trikot. If he is world champion in road racing, he must wear the world
champion trikot. If someone is world champion at time trial, he must wear
the world champion time trial jersey at a time trial, but never at a
regular road race.

Interesting. What about the riders who have the world champion "rainbow"
stripes only on their collars and the cuffs of their sleeves? What does
that mean? Are they world champions in non-road disciplines such as
track cycling or MTBing?

&roo

Andrew Swan said:

More TDF questions that just occurred to me after watching tonight's
stage (Alpe D'Huez) and a glass or two of red (so please forgive any
typos or "thinkos"😉:

(1) why do Phil and Paul (bless 'em) talk about the importance of Lance
having his postie teammates around him on the climbs, when AFAIK the
riders are not doing the kinds of speeds where drafting is of any use?

20kph is fast enough to get draughting benefit - which the average speed
of a 39 min ascent of Alpe D'Huez.

Quoted message said:

(2) how many of the riders in the Tour use speedos (the electronic kind,
not dickstickers/sluggos you understand)? And the ones who do, is it
really justifiable when they have their directeur sportif (DS) yelling
in their earpiece all day, or is it purely out of habit (like the
runners you see in the Olympic marathon who press the button on their
digital watch when crossing the finishing line, not trusting the $3bn
Seiko/Rolex timing system that's been installed purely to record their
time to the nanosecond)?

I heard some riders dont race with a cycle computers, believe it your
not. Don't really need it in a race. Useful in training though.

Quoted message said:

(3) talking of earpiece radios, do today's riders require less
tactical/strategic nous than those of yesteryear, given that these days
(thanks to TV, radio, and two-way comms with every rider) the DS knows
everything going on in the race and can tell any team member what to do
and when? What must it have been like in the old days when the peloton
could only figure out who had gone up the road in a break by counting
who was left?

There has been the debate about this over the years, the radio takes
away the necessity to think for themselves in races. Making tactical
decisions and team mates communicating with each other out on the road
used to be a part of pro racing. It still is at an amatuer level. Turn
pro and become a zombie, I don't see the sense in that either.

GK

and which climbs would these be?? they sure don't average 30+ up Alpe DHuez
or the Galibier

average of low-mid 20s yes..and yes drafting comes into effect at these
speeds and thats fast enough!!

"stu" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(1) why do Phil and Paul (bless 'em) talk about the importance of Lance
having his postie teammates around him on the climbs, when AFAIK the
riders are not doing the kinds of speeds where drafting is of any use?

these guys climb at 30kph+ so drafting still helps