24hour lighting...

Quoted message said:

Originally posted by eddiec Well, that's it.. We've committed
ourselves.. Our team of three >old fools has signed up for the Kona 24
hour in November. >Anyone else joining us??

Suckers! I mean.. cool ;-)

Not sure if I'm doing it this year.. wonder if last year's team
is reading?

Quoted message said:

Currently looking at following Fat Hippy's plans and building a >20watt
handlebar job and a 20watt helmet mount,

I managed with a Vistalite 5W bar and 10W helmet setup. I'm not even
reasonably fast though so your extra speed may need more lighting?

Quoted message said:

Initially thought of using rechargables, but now questioning if >we'd
have enough recharge time between laps or could be

Yeah, at around 1hr per lap (0:45 if you're fast or 1:20 for me), you're
only going to have 2 hours to charge your batt. Trick is to take as many
batts as you can and do two or more laps while 1 is on the charger.

Quoted message said:

Rough calculations seem to indicate that 4 lantern batteries of >decent
quality should provide a fair whack of run time for both >lights, but
as usual, there's often some tricky thing that I miss...

That will be pretty heavy and you'll have to make sure the connections
between batts are solid for the bumpy track. You'll need a few of them
too which might make recharging look at bit more reasonable cost-wise.

Quoted message said:

And any other preparation/training/planning tips as we hunker down and
prepare for this onslaught?

Ride lots. Ride at night lots. Work out what you can eat and drink when
going hard and when recovering between laps. Think about the tools you
will need - buy them.

My race report from last year is on this group - a quick google groups
search should reveal it ("hippy" "Kona" "24" etc)

hth hippy
- Some smarter dudes will surely help more with power requirements and
the like... sit tight 🙂

--

eddiec said:

...snip.... but now
questioning if we'd have enough recharge time between laps or could be
bothered getting to the recharge tent, and wondering if it's possible
(ie. enough run time, bright, etc.) to run such lights of a few lantern
batteries..

Another alternative that you might look at is rechargeable tool
batteries. This is an idea from Moz. I only mention it because I've seen
catalogues (Aldi?) where this stuff started around $15. Junk the tool &
keep the battery.

I have no idea on capacity, etc.

Terry Collins said:

Another alternative that you might look at is rechargeable tool
batteries. This is an idea from Moz. I only mention it because I've seen
catalogues (Aldi?) where this stuff started around $15. Junk the tool &
keep the battery.

I have no idea on capacity, etc.

They aren't worth the effort involved walking into the shop to buy it in the
first place.

They use the cheapest, lowest capacity batteries they can find.

Go out and buy either nicads or NiMHs, by far better value for money than any
rubbish you're likely to find supplied with junk like that.

--
Linux Registered User # 302622 <http://counter.li.org>

bunnings have a 12V rechargeable drill for $19 that has1.2Ah NiCads and
comes with a charger, sure its a [censored] charger but the batteries alone would
cost you $55 for 1.3Ah for jaycar or $29.5 for Ni-Mh. If you making a pack
to use a lot, then sure go with Ni-Mh, but if it just an extra pack or
something you are only going to use a couple of times a year, then I think
they will be fine.
thats if 1.2Ah will get you a full lap. I use one for my 10W helmet light.

With my CygoLite Night Explorer setup I get pretty close to 3hrs using the 10w
lamp....

I have two batteries and that is around 6 hours of light.

If I had to ride all my time at the race in darkness I'd be pretty peeved
though!!!

FWIW I get about 1.5 hours using the 15w lamp and an hour if I have them both
on.

I've never used anything more than the 10w because, I am always trying to
conserve battery life in case I fall off etc. , also I haven't really needed
anything more except on one occasion in rather heavy rain in the Majura Pines.

Cheers,
Rob
Rob Woozle
http://www.geocities.com/robwoozle
"Hello, is there anybody.....out there?"

The initial plan was to go the rechargeable route - and if I keep on
using these lights pre/post race I may still do so, so that's all good
advice - thanks!

However, for most road commuting I'm happy with a lightweight low-power
light, and I'm looking for a simple approach for race lighting...

On looking around Bunnings and such today I've found that a couple of
fairly ordinary lantern batteries will give me (according to the tech
sheets) about 11Ah for about $7 per battery... and if you're willing to
go to alkaline's (about $12 per battery) then you get up to 26Ah
capacity... So that should theoretically see me through the race without
having to fuss with charging. Of course, this is all theory at this
stage. I'll make the lights and see how the lantern batteries handle it!

Although I did see more stuff while i was there too! Like tiny 20w micro-
halogen lamps with heat-shielded aluminium backings which looked like
the perfect deal for a helmet light... Or even two 10w micros mounted on
either side of the helmet for that techy look! (Would 2x10w lights give
as good penetration of the darkness as a single 20w? May be a dumb
question, but I'm not sure...)

--

stu said:

bunnings have a 12V rechargeable drill for $19 that has1.2Ah NiCads and
comes with a charger, sure its a [censored] charger but the batteries alone would
cost you $55 for 1.3Ah for jaycar or $29.5 for Ni-Mh. If you making a pack
to use a lot, then sure go with Ni-Mh, but if it just an extra pack or
something you are only going to use a couple of times a year, then I think
they will be fine.
thats if 1.2Ah will get you a full lap. I use one for my 10W helmet light.

Been there done that.

Test them. You'll find the Jaycar batteries are better, hold more capacity,
and have a far lower self-discharge.

And if you look, you can find even better batteries that what Jaycar has on
offer, though you'll probably be paying more.

Generally, you get what you pay for- regardless of the label says.

--
Linux Registered User # 302622 <http://counter.li.org>

I've always managed on a pair of 5 watt handlebar mounts. A pair of good,
tightly focused halogen lamp like a Cateye is good for up to 30km/h under
a toatlly overcast, new moon sky on open, unlit roads. Add a xenon (strobe
type) headlamp for extra range and round corners and you'll be fine.

All of this is much lighter than "megawatts" and will run off AA cells (3
to 4 hours for 5 watts off 4 alkalines) which adds up to probably 10 AA
cells times 4 or 40x AA which would weigh a stack less than 4 lantern
batteries and be easier to pack. If you run the lights with their covers
held on with elastic bands, you can change batteries on the go, too. (Be
careful, though!)

eddiec said:

Well, that's it.. We've committed ourselves.. Our team of three old
fools has signed up for the Kona 24 hour in November. Anyone else
joining us??

Quoted message said:

But now I'm working through the issue of lighting for the race and
wondering what the best approach is.

Quoted message said:

Currently looking at following Fat Hippy's plans and building a 20watt
handlebar job and a 20watt helmet mount, and the issue of battery power
is now vexing me. Initially thought of using rechargables, but now
questioning if we'd have enough recharge time between laps or could be
bothered getting to the recharge tent, and wondering if it's possible
(ie. enough run time, bright, etc.) to run such lights of a few lantern
batteries... Has anyone done this? Rough calculations seem to indicate
that 4 lantern batteries of decent quality should provide a fair whack
of run time for both lights, but as usual, there's often some tricky
thing that I miss...

Quoted message said:

And any other preparation/training/planning tips as we hunker down and
prepare for this onslaught?

Quoted message said:

--

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bunnings have a 12V rechargeable drill for $19 that has1.2Ah NiCads and
comes with a charger, sure its a [censored] charger but the batteries alone

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cost you $55 for 1.3Ah for jaycar or $29.5 for Ni-Mh. If you making a

pack

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to use a lot, then sure go with Ni-Mh, but if it just an extra pack or
something you are only going to use a couple of times a year, then I

think

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they will be fine.
thats if 1.2Ah will get you a full lap. I use one for my 10W helmet

light.

Quoted message said:

Been there done that.

Test them. You'll find the Jaycar batteries are better, hold more

capacity,

Quoted message said:

and have a far lower self-discharge.

even if you only use them twice a year?

Quoted message said:

And if you look, you can find even better batteries that what Jaycar has

on

Quoted message said:

offer, though you'll probably be paying more.

you can find much better batteries, how about some 9Ah NiMh for only $27.90
each
but if you really want to spend money, forget NiMh and go with Li-Ion . then
you have to make them into a pack and make/buy a charger.

Quoted message said:

Generally, you get what you pay for- regardless of the label says.

for sure, but if you are only going to use them 2 nights a year then the
rechangerable drill is quick easy and cheap. if you want something that is
going to surive the ride home every night through winter, you will want
something better for sure.

stu said:

you can find much better batteries, how about some 9Ah NiMh for only $27.90
each
but if you really want to spend money, forget NiMh and go with Li-Ion . then
you have to make them into a pack and make/buy a charger.

Sure, but then you're getting the best energy density that money can buy, a
good idea for bicycles, since you're keeping the weight down.

However, if you're going to spend that sort of money, you may as well go for
HID, much better efficiency than halogens.

But by that stage, you're spending around $1K.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Generally, you get what you pay for- regardless of the label says.

for sure, but if you are only going to use them 2 nights a year then the
rechangerable drill is quick easy and cheap.

If you're going to use them two nights out of a year, Lead acid is the
cheapest way up-front.

Those el-cheapos probably won't last you a lap. Start practicing riding in
the dark to gain night skills, you're going to need it.

You really don't get it do you? Those $15 drills cost about $2-3 coming into
the country. And that's getting ripped.

If the batteries are 25% of the product cost (just a guess), you're looking
at around 50c for the batteries. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Quoted message said:

if you want something that is
going to surive the ride home every night through winter, you will want
something better for sure.

NiCad is the cheapest dollar for dollar.

NiMh are better for the environment, though might not be suited for high
discharge.

LiIon is the lightest, when only the best will do if you're trying to perform
in the dark.

SLA, though would have a higher TCO (total cost of ownership) than NiCads,
are the cheapest up-front.

--
Linux Registered User # 302622 <http://counter.li.org>

John Tserkezis wrote:

....snip....

Quoted message said:

SLA, though would have a higher TCO (total cost of ownership) than NiCads,
are the cheapest up-front.

Could you substantiate this?

I would have thought that SLAs were the lowest TCO because they last the
longest and have the greatest (after LA) number of recharge cycles.

BTW. If you have tested those cheap tool batteries, then I do appreciate
the comments on their capapcity. Better your $ than mine {:-)

stu wrote:

....snip.....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Generally, you get what you pay for- regardless of the label says.

for sure, but if you are only going to use them 2 nights a year then the
rechangerable drill is quick easy and cheap.

Another trap with these is to make sure that you do not make something
that is dependant on the battery shape. It seems to change each
model/year/month? (Has a nice 12v rechargable drill that is useless
because no replacement batteries are available.)

(Pedro Allen Power) said:

I've always managed on a pair of 5 watt handlebar mounts. A pair of good,
tightly focused halogen lamp like a Cateye is good for up to 30km/h under
a toatlly overcast, new moon sky on open, unlit roads. Add a xenon (strobe
type) headlamp for extra range and round corners and you'll be fine.

I like the idea of using only standard alkalines and would prefer to stick to
these for night rides. Custom, heavy batteries, chargers etc. are just too
expensive and painful.

I'm hoping that the new cateye EL500 will be brighter enough compared to the
EL300 - this will be a win for me. The EL300 is great, excellent battery life
and light (weight light that is..) but just not bright enough to be a main
light.

davidp.
--
David Pascoe, [email hidden], Western Australia

"stu" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

you can find much better batteries, how about some 9Ah NiMh for only
$27.90 each

Where? I'm making my own set of lights at the moment and that's a bloody
good price!

Cheers,

Graeme

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you can find much better batteries, how about some 9Ah NiMh for only
$27.90 each

Where? I'm making my own set of lights at the moment and that's a bloody
good price!

jaycar
thats "each" and you will need 10 of them
if you want to get them in from the states
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=228
8*9.5Ah $44.95US
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=167
10*4Ah $24.99US

"stu" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:40a1a147$0$440$afc38c87
@news.optusnet.com.au:

Quoted message said:

jaycar
thats "each" and you will need 10 of them

Thought so. That was a bit sneaky, not comparing like with like.

Quoted message said:

if you want to get them in from the states
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=228
8*9.5Ah $44.95US
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=167
10*4Ah $24.99US

Good price. Shame it would be mail order though, it's not as easy to sneak
them into the house so my wife doesn't see that I've just spend over $100
on batteries ;-)

Graeme

"Graeme" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"stu" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:40a1a147$0$440$afc38c87
@news.optusnet.com.au:

Quoted message said:

jaycar
thats "each" and you will need 10 of them

Thought so. That was a bit sneaky, not comparing like with like.

I did say each for the 9Ah ones.(if you buy 10 the are "only" $24.95 each
from jaycar) In another post I talked about a 1.2Ah pack that would be
$29.50 for 10*1.2Ah AAs
sorry for the confusetion

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if you want to get them in from the states
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=228
8*9.5Ah $44.95US
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=167
10*4Ah $24.99US

Good price. Shame it would be mail order though, it's not as easy to sneak
them into the house so my wife doesn't see that I've just spend over $100
on batteries ;-)

yer that can be the biggest problem 🙂

Terry Collins said:

Quoted message said:

SLA, though would have a higher TCO (total cost of ownership) than NiCads,
are the cheapest up-front.

Quoted message said:

Could you substantiate this?

Quoted message said:

I would have thought that SLAs were the lowest TCO because they last the
longest and have the greatest (after LA) number of recharge cycles.

NiCads have a greater recharge cycle life than SLAs. Lead acids tend to not
like being discharged at all, especially deeply discharged. Their nature is
better suited to standby applications (such as battery backup, UPS etc).

Nicads are better than SLA if abused by charge/recharge cycles.

Also, leaving nicads discharged generally won't kill them, leaving lead acids
discharged _will_ kill them.

Quoted message said:

BTW. If you have tested those cheap tool batteries, then I do appreciate
the comments on their capapcity. Better your $ than mine {:-)

No "official" tests, the differences are so clear there is no need for any
stopwatch and calculator tests.

I'm comparing two dustbusters, one with standard batteries, always in the
cradle being trickle charged (1.2A/h factory nicads), the other with jaycar
2.4A/h high discharge NiMh cells retro-fitted directly after purchase. (to heck
with the warranty)

The standard one that lives plugged in, IS plugged in because it self
discharges to virtually nothing after two weeks otherwise. I've just run it
now, it goes for 2.5 minutes before slowing down. It claims 7.2v 1.2A/hr, but
that's a damned lie, because I can only see four cells. Suction is enough to
pick up bits of paper for demonstration purposes.
If you haven't picked up the bits of paper in 2.5 minutes, you're up for
another overnight charging session.

The modified one has 5 cells, touted as the "high power" wet/dry version.
It's plugged into a timed constant current charger (non factory standard) that
gives a full charge in about four hours (I didn't want to abuse the cells), and
only gets charged when needed. It goes months before needing a recharge. It's
good for 6.5 minutes before slowing down. It sucks enough to make it useful.
The replacement cells cost about the same as the dustbuster itself.

Allowing for the higher discharge current on the higher power dustbuster,
you're looking at about three times the run time, for only "double" capacity.
--
Linux Registered User # 302622 <http://counter.li.org>

"John Tserkezis" wrote

Quoted message said:

No "official" tests, the differences are so clear there is no need for

any

Quoted message said:

stopwatch and calculator tests.

I'm comparing two dustbusters, one with standard batteries, always in

the

Quoted message said:

cradle being trickle charged (1.2A/h factory nicads), the other with

jaycar

Quoted message said:

2.4A/h high discharge NiMh cells retro-fitted directly after purchase. (to

heck

Quoted message said:

with the warranty)

You can buy a cheapo 12V drill for around $40. I paid $80 wholesale just to
have the batteries replaced in my 12V Hilti. If you want a battery pack from
Hilti prepare to pay $180. You bet there is a difference between batteries

Theo