CSC is cool

I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the second
group. Does anybody undertand whatCSC was trying (other thta
appear in front of the camera)?

"Ernst Noch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2labs5FajdtbU1@uni-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Damn,

say what you will about Mr. 60%, but what his team is the
one making the tour interesting. Oh, and when the succeed
in what they are doing today, it means even more hurt put
on certain climbers.

"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the
second group. Does anybody undertand whatCSC was trying
(other thta appear in front of the camera)?

On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the peloton
but after a few kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.

"Mr. 60%". What's that?

HB

alex said:

I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the
second group. Does anybody undertand whatCSC was trying
(other thta appear in front of the camera)?

I thought I there were also some EE colors in the second
group. I think they wanted to drop some of the sprinters,
in order to make it easier for breakaways. A more
elaborate / coordinated form of the normal solo/small
group breakaway routine.

"Henrik Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
-"]news:[email hidden]-
online.net...

Quoted message said:

I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the
second group. Does anybody undertand whatCSC was trying
(other thta appear in front of the camera)?

On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the
peloton but after a

few

Quoted message said:

kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.

"Mr. 60%". What's that?

HB

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-
know" they are about doping rumors and cycling in general.

Chris said:

"Henrik Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
-"]news:[email hidden]-
online.net...

Quoted message said:

I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the
second group. Does anybody undertand whatCSC was trying
(other thta appear in front of the camera)?

On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the
peloton but after a

few

Quoted message said:

kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.

"Mr. 60%". What's that?

HB

It's something which will is often brought forward against
Bjarne Riis. It refers to Haematokrit level. Allegedly this
was his nickname in the peleton. I just mentioned it to
spare someone a reply.

Quoted message said:

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-
know" they are about doping rumors and cycling in general.

I sincerly just forgot the quotation marks. For the record,
I'm not an "insider" or "in-the-know" and don't want to
pretend to be it. I'm just a fan of this sport.

PS: There's some mistake hidden in the above post.

"Ernst Noch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chris said:

"Henrik Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
-"]news:[email hidden]-
online.net...

>I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the
>second group. Does anybody undertand whatCSC was trying
>(other thta appear in front of the camera)?
>

On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the
peloton but after a

few

Quoted message said:

kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.

"Mr. 60%". What's that?

HB

It's something which will is often brought forward against
Bjarne Riis. It refers to Haematokrit level. Allegedly
this was his nickname in the peleton. I just mentioned it
to spare someone a reply.

Quoted message said:

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-
know" they

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about doping rumors and cycling in general.

I sincerly just forgot the quotation marks. For the
record, I'm not an "insider" or "in-the-know" and don't
want to pretend to be it. I'm just a fan of this sport.

PS: There's some mistake hidden in the above post.

Are you looking for someone to correct your spelling?

Chris said:

"Ernst Noch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2laichFa6q64U1@uni-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Chris said:

"Henrik Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

>"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
>-"]news:[email hidden]-
>online.net...
>
>
>>I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the
>>second group. Does anybody undertand whatCSC was trying
>>(other thta appear in front of the camera)?
>>
>
>On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the
>peloton but after a

few

>kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.
>
>"Mr. 60%". What's that?
>
>HB

It's something which will is often brought forward against
Bjarne Riis. It refers to Haematokrit level. Allegedly
this was his nickname in the peleton. I just mentioned it
to spare someone a reply.

Quoted message said:

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-
know" they

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about doping rumors and cycling in general.

I sincerly just forgot the quotation marks. For the
record, I'm not an "insider" or "in-the-know" and don't
want to pretend to be it. I'm just a fan of this sport.

PS: There's some mistake hidden in the above post.

Are you looking for someone to correct your spelling?

No, but after <[email hidden]> I decided to
get a bit of obviousness adjustment. Still working on it.

Ernst Noch said:

Damn,

say what you will about Mr. 60%, but what his team is the
one making the tour interesting. Oh, and when the succeed
in what they are doing today, it means even more hurt put
on certain climbers.

Did anyone see if Bartoli was working in the manoevre? Since
there was a 4th cat climb a few km from the end, I was
thinking that they were trying to reel in the break and keep
the sprinter's team from gaining control so Bartoli could go
for the stage win, since it was a profile that would
particularly suit him.

trg said:

Ernst Noch said:

Damn,

say what you will about Mr. 60%, but what his team is the
one making the tour interesting. Oh, and when the succeed
in what they are doing today, it means even more hurt put
on certain climbers.

Did anyone see if Bartoli was working in the manoevre?

For what I've seen, it was mainly Voigt, Peron and Piil to
do the hard job.

Chris said:

"Henrik Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
-"]news:[email hidden]-
online.net...

Quoted message said:

I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the
second group. Does anybody undertand whatCSC was trying
(other thta appear in front of the camera)?

On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the
peloton but after a

few

Quoted message said:

kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.

"Mr. 60%". What's that?

HB

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-
know" they are about doping rumors and cycling in general.

Even if he was doped to the gills in his heyday, he is
clearly an aggressive and clever leader too.

JT

Ernst Noch said:

Chris said:

"Henrik Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en meddelelse
-"]news:[email hidden]-
online.net...

>I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the
>second group. Does anybody undertand whatCSC was trying
>(other thta appear in front of the camera)?
>

On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the
peloton but after a

few

Quoted message said:

kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.

"Mr. 60%". What's that?

HB

It's something which will is often brought forward against
Bjarne Riis. It refers to Haematokrit level. Allegedly this
was his nickname in the peleton. I just mentioned it to
spare someone a reply.

Quoted message said:

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-
know" they are about doping rumors and cycling in
general.

I sincerly just forgot the quotation marks. For the record,
I'm not an "insider" or "in-the-know" and don't want to
pretend to be it. I'm just a fan of this sport.

PS: There's some mistake hidden in the above post.

Some kind of spelling eror?

JT

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Chris said:

"Henrik Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"alex" <[email hidden]> skrev i en
meddelelse -"]news:[email hidden]-
online.net...
> I could only see some sprinters and C. Moreau in the
> second group. Does anybody undertand whatCSC was
> trying (other thta appear in front of the camera)?
>

On TV Riis said that they went in front to split the
peloton but after a

few

Quoted message said:

kilometres the wind wasn't hard enough.

"Mr. 60%". What's that?

HB

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-
know" they are about doping rumors and cycling in
general.

Even if he was doped to the gills in his heyday, he is
clearly an aggressive and clever leader too.

JT

I definitely agree with this, but there really isn't a
lot of evidence that he was doped, just rumors and
speculation. The main source for the doping speculation
seems to be because he "came out of nowhere" to win the
Tour. But if you look at his palmares, you can see a
gradual progression. Everything before the '96 season was
ridden as a domestique, too. trap-trap-Open ↗
friis.dk/cykling/hof/danmark.Riis.htm

That being said, however, I am not saying that he was
100% clean. But I don't know for sure that he did use.
The fact that he rode for Gewiss in their heyday does
lend some suspicion to the question.

--
tanx, Howard

So far, so good, so what?

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Chris said:

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-
know" they

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about doping rumors and cycling in general.

Even if he was doped to the gills in his heyday, he is
clearly an aggressive and clever leader too.

I definitely agree with this, but there really isn't a
lot of evidence that he was doped, just rumors and
speculation. The main source for the doping speculation
seems to be because he "came out of nowhere" to win the
Tour. But if you look at his palmares, you can see a
gradual progression. Everything before the '96 season
was ridden as a domestique, too. trap-trap-Open ↗
friis.dk/cykling/hof/danmark.Riis.htm

That being said, however, I am not saying that he was
100% clean. But I don't know for sure that he did use.
The fact that he rode for Gewiss in their heyday does
lend some suspicion to the question.

This is a pretty good discussion about this subject. I
don't think that the "coming out of nowhere" theory
holds any water at all since he was in the top ten for a
couple of years.

And regardless of what he did then, the only thing under
discussion now is what he is doing now. And he seems to be
getting far more out of riders than any other DS. Since
Bobby Julich is Mr. Clean (he's one of those guys who wants
to eat only "organic" vegetables without any hint of
chemicals about them and that sort of thing) I don't
believe that Riis is getting results by putting his riders
on better dope.

As John says, I think that Bjarne Riis is a clever and
intelligent DS who can motivate his men. I also think that
one of the ways he does that is by not forcing the team to
ride for a single leader but instead let's them go for their
own victories. The down side of that is that his team will
never compete in the GC because of that. On the other hand,
they really don't have any leader capable of seriously
challenging for the GC anyway so they might as well have
riders in breaks and going for stage wins anyway.

Howard Kveck said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "Mr. 60%". What's that?
>
> HB

Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-
know" they are about doping rumors and cycling in
general.

Even if he was doped to the gills in his heyday, he is
clearly an aggressive and clever leader too.

JT

Quoted message said:

I definitely agree with this, but there really isn't a
lot of evidence that he was doped, just rumors and
speculation. The main source for the doping speculation
seems to be because he "came out of nowhere" to win the
Tour. But if you look at his palmares, you can see a
gradual progression. Everything before the '96 season
was ridden as a domestique, too. trap-trap-Open ↗
friis.dk/cykling/hof/danmark.Riis.htm

Quoted message said:

That being said, however, I am not saying that he was
100% clean. But I don't know for sure that he did use.
The fact that he rode for Gewiss in their heyday does
lend some suspicion to the question.

The Mr 60% nickname was made up by the Festina riders in
96/97 - as we remeber they were doped well above the 50%
limit. They couldn't understand why Riis still beat them in
96 and the spring of 97 (Amstel), the only explenation they
could think of was that they imagined thas his HC value was
arround 60%.

When the 50% limit was enforced from 97 very few riders
supported it publicly - the only ones i can remember is Riis
and Richard.

Actualley the nickname says more about the Festia riders
approach to doping than Riis's.

The evidence of Riis allereged use of doping wassen't as
strong as the evidence against LA.

Unfortunatly people remeber the nickname but they forgot who
made it up, and what the people who made it up did.

Take a look of a photograph of Riis in 93 (when he came out
of Fignon's shadow and placed 5th) and compare it to a
picture from 95 or 97. He lost a lot of weight in 95/96 and
allmost looked like a surviving holocast victim. The weight
difference is a lot bigger than the difference between LA
99-04 and his pre-cancer weight.

Until 95 Riis was a very decent rider rinding in support for
Fignon (from 88 until Fignon signed with Gatorade to support
Bugno) but the without the confidence to win races himself.
Riis was one of the best payed supportriders in Pro cycling
in those days.

Btw Riis didn't win in 96 because of suppirior strength,
but because he was a very skilled tatical rider who was
able to analyze the race and figure out how Indurain could
be beaten. It was the same tactical skills which he used
to bring Ulrich to 2. place and Ulrichs victory i 97.
Without Riis brains Ulrich wouldn't have finished 2. in 96
nor won in 97.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

PowerMac G5: 1.6GHz, 1.25GB RAM, 80GB Disk, 8x DVD+/-RW,
Bluetooth mus
+ tastatur, FX5200 Ultra, iSight, eyeTV200 & Lacie
Photon18Vision (TFT).

In article <[email hidden]>,

Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:

The Mr 60% nickname was made up by the Festina riders in
96/97 - as we remeber they were doped well above the 50%
limit. They couldn't understand why Riis still beat them
in 96 and the spring of 97 (Amstel), the only explenation
they could think of was that they imagined thas his HC
value was arround 60%.

That had to have been frustrating for Festina. Funny that
they'd automatically assume that the guy who's beating
them when they were cheating like mad had to have been
cheating even worse.

Quoted message said:

When the 50% limit was enforced from 97 very few riders
supported it publicly - the only ones i can remember is
Riis and Richard.

Actualley the nickname says more about the Festia riders
approach to doping than Riis's.

The evidence of Riis allereged use of doping wassen't as
strong as the evidence against LA.

Unfortunatly people remeber the nickname but they forgot
who made it up, and what the people who made it up did.

Sad but true.

Quoted message said:

Take a look of a photograph of Riis in 93 (when he came
out of Fignon's shadow and placed 5th) and compare it to a
picture from 95 or 97. He lost a lot of weight in 95/96
and allmost looked like a surviving holocast victim. The
weight difference is a lot bigger than the difference
between LA 99-04 and his pre-cancer weight.

Until 95 Riis was a very decent rider rinding in support
for Fignon (from 88 until Fignon signed with Gatorade to
support Bugno) but the without the confidence to win races
himself. Riis was one of the best payed supportriders in
Pro cycling in those days.

I do remember reading some comments by Fignon about Riis
just after they went their own ways. He seemed to think
quite highly of Riis.

Quoted message said:

Btw Riis didn't win in 96 because of suppirior strength,
but because he was a very skilled tatical rider who was
able to analyze the race and figure out how Indurain could
be beaten. It was the same tactical skills which he used
to bring Ulrich to 2. place and Ulrichs victory i 97.
Without Riis brains Ulrich wouldn't have finished 2. in 96
nor won in 97.

It's too bad he just didn't have quite the same form in
'97 as he did in '96. I really wanted him to win it
again. But seeing him win Amstel the way he did was
pretty cool, too. Certainly not something you would ever
expect the defending Tour winner to do in this day.

--
tanx, Howard

So far, so good, so what?

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Kunich said:

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:YOURhoward-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:45:43 -0700, "Chris"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>Something some can't let go. It let's you know how
>"in-the-know" they

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>about doping rumors and cycling in general.

Even if he was doped to the gills in his heyday, he is
clearly an aggressive and clever leader too.

I definitely agree with this, but there really isn't
a lot of evidence that he was doped, just rumors and
speculation. The main source for the doping
speculation seems to be because he "came out of
nowhere" to win the Tour. But if you look at his
palmares, you can see a gradual progression.
Everything before the '96 season was ridden as a
domestique, too. trap-trap-Open ↗
friis.dk/cykling/hof/danmark.Riis.htm

That being said, however, I am not saying that he was
100% clean. But I don't know for sure that he did
use. The fact that he rode for Gewiss in their heyday
does lend some suspicion to the question.

This is a pretty good discussion about this subject. I
don't think that the "coming out of nowhere" theory holds
any water at all since he was in the top ten for a couple
of years.

And regardless of what he did then, the only thing under
discussion now is what he is doing now. And he seems to be
getting far more out of riders than any other DS. Since
Bobby Julich is Mr. Clean (he's one of those guys who
wants to eat only "organic" vegetables without any hint of
chemicals about them and that sort of thing) I don't
believe that Riis is getting results by putting his riders
on better dope.

As John says, I think that Bjarne Riis is a clever and
intelligent DS who can motivate his men. I also think
that one of the ways he does that is by not forcing the
team to ride for a single leader but instead let's them
go for their own victories. The down side of that is
that his team will never compete in the GC because of
that. On the other hand, they really don't have any
leader capable of seriously challenging for the GC
anyway so they might as well have riders in breaks and
going for stage wins anyway.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they'll "never compete in
the GC." Riis has had a couple of pretty good GC results
with Hamilton (2nd Giro, 4th TdF). Obviously, with
Hamilton gone, that changes things. But he does have
Sastre and Basso. I don't see them as being winners this
year (or even podium, but they could be close), but I
think they have the talent to do it in the next few
years. I will say I have somewhat lower expectations for
Sastre, though. What they are doing right now, to me, is
getting the most publicity they can during the part of
the race that theoretically should have little effect on
GC (Mayo might not agree with that, though). There is
some risk in doing that. But with Voight and Piil off
freelancing, they are getting plenty of exposure. Sastre
and Basso should be able to be reasonably well protected
in these stages if they keep the remainder of their guys
around them and stick close to LANCE and Ullrich's more
focused teams on the road. Riis certainly seems to know
how to get the most out of his guys and whatever the
situation is on the road.

--
tanx, Howard

So far, so good, so what?

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:YOURhoward-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

As John says, I think that Bjarne Riis is a clever and
intelligent DS who can motivate his men. I also think
that one of the ways he does that is by not forcing the
team to ride for a single leader but instead let's them
go for their own victories. The down side of that is
that his team will never compete in the GC because of
that. On the other hand, they really don't have any
leader capable of seriously challenging for the GC
anyway so they might as well have riders in breaks and
going for stage wins anyway.

It true CSC is racing like they don't have a designated
leader (for GC or sprints).

But as we see with Fassa, results can be better
without a leader.

Pozzatto already won and Flecha and Kirchen came close once
Petacchi was out of the picture (plus Cancellara's
prologue).

in article [email hidden], Tom Kunich
at [email hidden] wrote on 7/11/04 1:44 PM:

Quoted message said:

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:YOURhoward-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:45:43 -0700, "Chris"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> Something some can't let go. It let's you know how "in-the-
> know" they

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> about doping rumors and cycling in general.

Even if he was doped to the gills in his heyday, he is
clearly an aggressive and clever leader too.

I definitely agree with this, but there really isn't a
lot of evidence that he was doped, just rumors and
speculation. The main source for the doping speculation
seems to be because he "came out of nowhere" to win the
Tour. But if you look at his palmares, you can see a
gradual progression. Everything before the '96 season was
ridden as a domestique, too. trap-trap-Open ↗
friis.dk/cykling/hof/danmark.Riis.htm

That being said, however, I am not saying that he was
100% clean. But I don't know for sure that he did use.
The fact that he rode for Gewiss in their heyday does
lend some suspicion to the question.

This is a pretty good discussion about this subject. I
don't think that the "coming out of nowhere" theory holds
any water at all since he was in the top ten for a couple
of years.

And regardless of what he did then, the only thing under
discussion now is what he is doing now. And he seems to be
getting far more out of riders than any other DS. Since
Bobby Julich is Mr. Clean (he's one of those guys who
wants to eat only "organic" vegetables without any hint of
chemicals about them and that sort of thing) I don't
believe that Riis is getting results by putting his riders
on better dope.

As John says, I think that Bjarne Riis is a clever and
intelligent DS who can motivate his men. I also think
that one of the ways he does that is by not forcing the
team to ride for a single leader but instead let's them
go for their own victories. The down side of that is
that his team will never compete in the GC because of
that. On the other hand, they really don't have any
leader capable of seriously challenging for the GC
anyway so they might as well have riders in breaks and
going for stage wins anyway.

Put another way, the CSC Team is like Landbouwkrediet with a
deeper talent pool and a better DS...

-Sonarrat.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Howard Kveck said:

What they are doing right now, to me, is getting the most
publicity they can during the part of the race that
theoretically should have little effect on GC (Mayo might
not agree with that, though). There is some risk in doing
that. But with Voight and Piil off freelancing, they are
getting plenty of exposure.

One point I forgot to mention is that I would bet in the
next week, the tactics of Riis will change to focus more
on Sastre and Basso than what we've been seeing so far.

--
tanx, Howard

So far, so good, so what?

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?