Unlikely Ally

Simon Mason said:

In this week's Auto Express, petrolhead Mike Rutherford joins in the criticism of road rage driver
Carl Baxter's lenient sentence:

Quoted message said:

simonmason.karoo.netzauto.htmOpen ↗

I'd be another "unlikely" ally.

Except the actions described are not those of motorists, and to extend the thinking to include
"normal" road accidents is neither fair nor sensible, let alone justifiable.

In the first case (Baxter) he has simply used his vehicle as a weapon. This has nothing to do with
driving in much the same way that carving the sunday joint has nothing to do with stabbing someone.

In the second case (Clarke) we have a crazed drug addict with no regard for other people, driving
while disqualified and intoxicated.

Neither case bears any useful relationship to normal responsible members of society using the roads.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

Paul Smith of Scotland said:

I'd be another "unlikely" ally.

What exactly makes you "unlikely"? Is it your occasional posting of obscenities in u.r.c?

In message <[email hidden]>, Paul Smith
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Simon Mason said:

In this week's Auto Express, petrolhead Mike Rutherford joins in the criticism of road rage driver
Carl Baxter's lenient sentence:

Quoted message said:

simonmason.karoo.netzauto.htmOpen ↗

I'd be another "unlikely" ally.

Except the actions described are not those of motorists,

I think you inadvertently omitted the word 'sane'. Being as they were in motorised vehicles it is
incontrovertible that they were motorists.

Quoted message said:

and to extend the thinking to include "normal" road accidents is neither fair nor sensible, let
alone justifiable.

Has anyone done this?
--
Michael MacClancy

On Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:39:34 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Geraint

Jones) said:

Quoted message said:

I'd be another "unlikely" ally.

Quoted message said:

What exactly makes you "unlikely"?

The same thinking that made the author of the article the "unlikely ally" in the thread title.

Quoted message said:

Is it your occasional posting of obscenities in u.r.c?

Probably not. No.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

Michael MacClancy said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In this week's Auto Express, petrolhead Mike Rutherford joins in the criticism of road rage
driver Carl Baxter's lenient sentence:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

simonmason.karoo.netzauto.htmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd be another "unlikely" ally.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Except the actions described are not those of motorists,

Quoted message said:

I think you inadvertently omitted the word 'sane'. Being as they were in motorised vehicles it is
incontrovertible that they were motorists.

Granted.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and to extend the thinking to include "normal" road accidents is neither fair nor sensible, let
alone justifiable.

Quoted message said:

Has anyone done this?

To some degree I think that it's implied in the thread title.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

"Simon Mason" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In this week's Auto Express, petrolhead Mike Rutherford joins in the criticism of road rage driver
Carl Baxter's lenient sentence:

simonmason.karoo.netzauto.htmOpen ↗

I don't see it as unreasonable or even surprising that a committed petrol-head would condemn Baxter,
or indeed others, who clearly used the car as a weapon to assault an innocent member of the public.
Baxter was clearly guilty of a revolting crime made worse by the injuries to the little girl -- who
he at the very least ignored in his assault on her father.

Most drivers are reasonable people (hell -- most of us drive some of the time, we don't grow horns
as we step into the car). I think it most unlikely that we as a group would try to defend a cyclist
who, for example, assaulted an elderly woman with a bicycle pump because of some minor or perceived
insult. (The actions of the slab fairy in the protection of the world from bib-shorts are, of
course, a completely different matter)

The problem is not criminal phsyopaths like Baxter -- fortunately they are rare. The real problem is
the inattentive driver, the speeding driver, the selfish driver and the aggressive driver who see
nothing wrong with putting cyclists and pedestrians (and motorcyclists and other drivers) at risk by
their actions.

T

A well written article from a welcome source. The thought of a 3-year-old girl being hit by a car on
a pedestrian crossing is almost unbearable. Same for the wee girl left maimed int he trailer. The 2
reckless people (call them motorists or morons) should have been locked up previously. End of story
(except it won't be- there will be others).

Paul Smith talks about "normal" road accidents. What is normal? At least one of these people set out
to injure. The other probably didn't care, and so was by definition being reckless. Surely all
reckless drivers deserve to be taken off the roads? Reckless means not caring, being uninterested in
the consequences of one's actions. We've all got an imagination, and can therefore use it to imagine
the consequences of a child about to cross the road down which we're going at 40mph.

I never understand why the outcome of one's intention and behaviour makes a difference in UK law.
For example, in a stabbing, if the victim dies the perpetrator can be charged with murder. If by
timely medical intervention the victim is saved, the perpetrator can only be charged with attempted
murder, but will probably not be. But his intentions and actions were the same. Similarly a
motorist who speeds at 50mph in a 30mph limit may be "unlucky" if he kills a child. But he chose to
drive at that speed, and has the mental capacity to imagine what might happen, so surely should be
charged according to his behaviour, not the outcome? (Which would be as if he'd killed someone, in
my opinion).

And before any of our motorist friends jump up and down, I'm a motorist too.

"Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Simon Mason said:

In this week's Auto Express, petrolhead Mike Rutherford joins in the criticism of road rage
driver Carl Baxter's lenient sentence:

Quoted message said:

simonmason.karoo.netzauto.htmOpen ↗

I'd be another "unlikely" ally.

Except the actions described are not those of motorists, and to extend the thinking to include
"normal" road accidents is neither fair nor sensible, let alone justifiable.

In the first case (Baxter) he has simply used his vehicle as a weapon. This has nothing to do with
driving in much the same way that carving the sunday joint has nothing to do with stabbing
someone.

In the second case (Clarke) we have a crazed drug addict with no regard for other people, driving
while disqualified and intoxicated.

Neither case bears any useful relationship to normal responsible members of society using
the roads.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

"Tony W" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Simon Mason" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In this week's Auto Express, petrolhead Mike Rutherford joins in the criticism of road rage
driver Carl Baxter's lenient sentence:

simonmason.karoo.netzauto.htmOpen ↗

I don't see it as unreasonable or even surprising that a committed petrol-head would condemn
Baxter, or indeed others, who clearly used the

car

Quoted message said:

as a weapon to assault an innocent member of the public. Baxter was

clearly

Quoted message said:

guilty of a revolting crime made worse by the injuries to the little

girl --

Quoted message said:

who he at the very least ignored in his assault on her father.

Agreed. I based my "unlikely" tag on his frequent diatribes against road calming, speed cameras,
congestion charges and the like which are intended to slow traffic down and reduce traffic volumes.

Hundreds of kids are killed every by year by cars, which would be lessened if the speed of cars is
reduced, something he is against.
--
Simon Mason Anlaby East Yorkshire. 53°44'N 0°26'W simonmason.karoo.netsimonmason.karoo.netOpen ↗

"Simon Mason" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Agreed. I based my "unlikely" tag on his frequent diatribes against road calming, speed cameras,
congestion charges and the like which are intended to slow traffic down and reduce traffic
volumes.

Hundreds of kids are killed every by year by cars, which would be lessened if the speed of cars is
reduced, something he is against.

Baxter and the other criminal mentioned in the piece were clear cut [censored] out with murderous
intent. Anyone but the brain dead would condemn their actions.

Sadly, too many people see any regulation or enforcement as an infringement of their liberty rather
than a sensible restriction for the greater good. (Indeed, while I have often argued that control of
speed is a necessary requirement to prevent accidents, I have also often railed against H&S Nazis
who try to overregulate everything -- thereby removing risk and so some of the fun and the
challenge. The difference being that speed and irresponsibility on the road kills others while
regulation of risks that only endanger myself should down to me).

I have no compalint about your 'unlikely' tag -- it seemed appropriate if not strictly accurate in
this case.

On Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:27:14 +0000 (UTC), "al_Mossah" <[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Paul Smith talks about "normal" road accidents. What is normal? At least one of these people set
out to injure. The other probably didn't care, and so was by definition being reckless. Surely all
reckless drivers deserve to be taken off the roads? Reckless means not caring, being uninterested
in the consequences of one's actions.

I am delighted to join you in condemning reckless behaviour wherever it's found.

Quoted message said:

We've all got an imagination, and can therefore use it to imagine the consequences of a child about
to cross the road down which we're going at 40mph.

Steady on. A child crossing the road ahead with legitimate 40mph traffic happens thousands of times
every day. Something else must go wrong before there's an accident.

Quoted message said:

I never understand why the outcome of one's intention and behaviour makes a difference in UK law.
For example, in a stabbing, if the victim dies the perpetrator can be charged with murder. If by
timely medical intervention the victim is saved, the perpetrator can only be charged with attempted
murder, but will probably not be. But his intentions and actions were the same. Similarly a
motorist who speeds at 50mph in a 30mph limit may be "unlucky" if he kills a child. But he chose to
drive at that speed, and has the mental capacity to imagine what might happen, so surely should be
charged according to his behaviour, not the outcome? (Which would be as if he'd killed someone, in
my opinion).

I too find it bizarre. It can only be that there's an element of retribution. I don't know why we
need it either. I think the intent (or the negligence) should be punished.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

Simon Mason said:

Hundreds of kids are killed every by year by cars, which would be lessened if the speed of cars is
reduced, something he is against.

Death and injury would certainly be lessened if the speed of traffic was reduced in exactly the
right places.

Speed cameras and speed enforcement generally appear to reduce the speeds of traffic in exactly the
wrong places.

Drivers mostly know the right places and succeed in avoiding accidents, a behaviour that should be
encouraged and nurtured.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

"Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Simon Mason said:

Hundreds of kids are killed every by year by cars, which would be

lessened

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if the speed of cars is reduced, something he is against.

Death and injury would certainly be lessened if the speed of traffic was reduced in exactly the
right places.

Speed cameras and speed enforcement generally appear to reduce the speeds of traffic in exactly
the wrong places.

Drivers mostly know the right places and succeed in avoiding accidents, a behaviour that should be
encouraged and nurtured.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

That'll be why the drivers down my road think that with parked cars to each side, only room for one
car to drive between them, a sharp bend with bad visibility, children around with footballs and
bikes, it's safe to drive down at 40mph most of the time, with some *obviously* enlightened
individuals realising this is a safe environment to do anything up to 60mph along?

Yeah right. In my area, the speed cameras are placed where the limit drops from 40 to 30, forcing
motorists to slow to 30 to avoid a ticket. That's great, but then they just speed up after the
camera, despite the road staying such that 40 is an inappropriate speed. Cameras are also placed
where previously there was dangerous overtaking on a 40mph road (limit is still 40mph, but you don't
get the idiots doing 60 down it and overtaking dangerously). That's worked quite well to stop the
idiots, because the traffic now keeps to a steady stream at 40, instead of bunching and gaps which
lead to the overtaking, at higher speeds.

There's many ways to avoid accidents, unfortunately drivers mostly DON'T know the right places, and
insist on testing out how good their brakes and steering is down my road, in a bid to avoid that
oncoming car/kid on a bike/parked car they're now swerving toward at speed. I regularly see the
sides of the cars trashed, in situ (the glass surrounding gives it away) by that sort of
'avoidance'.

Velvet

Paul "unlikely" [email hidden] Smith of Scotland, UK wrote: (
[email hidden] (Geraint Jones) wrote: ) >What exactly makes you "unlikely"?
( ... ) >Is it your occasional posting of obscenities in u.r.c? ( Probably not. No.

Ah, good; because I thought that, like your apparent obsession, might be a sign of incipient
road rage.

"Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steady on. A child crossing the road ahead with legitimate 40mph traffic happens thousands of
times every day. Something else must go wrong before there's an accident.

Normally the driver is not watching the road. If he were he would see that there was a zebra
crossing and that mother & child were on it.

Short of a medical emergency (e.g. the driver is in the middle of a heart attack) one can think of
no legitimate distraction for the driver.

In a brief moment of lucidity Simon Mason scribbled:

Quoted message said:

In this week's Auto Express, petrolhead Mike Rutherford joins in the criticism of road rage driver
Carl Baxter's lenient sentence:

simonmason.karoo.netzauto.htmOpen ↗

File size 157 kb 56k download time 45 sec.

Gotta say, every driver I know, who I have spoken to about this, is horrified. I know of no-one,
driver or non-driver, who can either justify what this animal did, or agree with the sentence he
was given.

Goolies should have been removed ..

--

Completed 1581 Seti work units in 12041 hours setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edusetiathome.ssl.berkeley.eduOpen ↗

Tony W said:

Quoted message said:

Steady on. A child crossing the road ahead with legitimate 40mph traffic happens thousands of
times every day. Something else must go wrong before there's an accident.

Quoted message said:

Normally the driver is not watching the road.

In a "normal accident" I agree. Inattention is a primary cause of a very large percentage of
accidents.

Quoted message said:

If he were he would see that there was a zebra crossing and that mother & child were on it.

Quoted message said:

Short of a medical emergency (e.g. the driver is in the middle of a heart attack) one can think of
no legitimate distraction for the driver.

Speedo and mirror checks are legitimate distractions. Normally they are not of sufficient duration
to actually cause an accident although they exacerbate the effects of other distractions and
mis-observations.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives

Paul Smith <[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Oh, bollocks, I thought you'd buggered off for good.

"Paul Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Simon Mason said:

Hundreds of kids are killed every by year by cars, which would be

lessened

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if the speed of cars is reduced, something he is against.

Death and injury would certainly be lessened if the speed of traffic was reduced in exactly the
right places.

Like at the precise place a kid steps out?

Quoted message said:

Speed cameras and speed enforcement generally appear to reduce the speeds of traffic in exactly
the wrong places.

How would you know. You don't drive in places with speed cameras apart from on holiday. The nearest
one to me probably stops the odd shunt but saves no lives. At least it saves on insurance,
congestion and police time.

Quoted message said:

Drivers mostly know the right places and succeed in avoiding accidents, a behaviour that should be
encouraged and nurtured.

rubbish. People avoid accidents they expect. If they cannot avoid accidents they expect then its not
an accident its recklessness.

Velvet said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hundreds of kids are killed every by year by cars, which would be lessened if the speed of cars
is reduced, something he is against.

Death and injury would certainly be lessened if the speed of traffic was reduced in exactly the
right places.

Speed cameras and speed enforcement generally appear to reduce the speeds of traffic in exactly
the wrong places.

Drivers mostly know the right places and succeed in avoiding accidents, a behaviour that should
be encouraged and nurtured.

Quoted message said:

That'll be why the drivers down my road think that with parked cars to each side, only room for one
car to drive between them, a sharp bend with bad visibility, children around with footballs and
bikes, it's safe to drive down at 40mph most of the time, with some *obviously* enlightened
individuals realising this is a safe environment to do anything up to 60mph along?

Your description of the use of a road does not match any traffic surveys I've ever read.

In general we get at least 85% of vehicles travelling at "safe speeds" which leads to traffic
engineers using the "85th percentile rule" as an important design guide.

That's not to say that we don't have a percentage of drivers exceeding safe limits. We do, and they
need to be dealt with. But the percentage is pretty small.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK safespeed.org.uksafespeed.org.ukOpen ↗ please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives