Where's Lance?

I'm with you. I don't get it, either. I'm trying hard to
follow this thing, but, being completely dumb about how
the TDF works, I'm totally perplexed when I see everybody
else winning, yet I hear the announcers talking about how
Lance is on his way to another sureshot victory. Maybe
that's why they don't bother to cover it much on network
TV or basic cable.

Somebody help!!!!

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The announcers were just talking about Lance hanging in
like 8th place to stay out of trouble and stuff, and I
don't see him in any of the stages, except for the 2nd
place in the Prologue. Yet they're talking about this

as

Quoted message said:

a winning strategy.

How can he do this. Uh, I'm pretty clueless about how they
score and get "points" and stuff, so if there's a FAQ for
TdF dummies, a pointer

perhaps?

Quoted message said:

Do you have to win a certain number of stages, or do you
just hang back

and

Quoted message said:

then get a time lead in the mountains or something?

Sorry for the possibly dumb questions on this... ;-)

-B

No such thing as a dumb question, Badger. Lance is trying to
put time on his primary rivals(Ullrich, Hamilton, Mayo). The
first couple of stages are for the sprinters--long, and
fairly flat, with a bunch finish. Sprinters die in the
mountains and on time trials, which is where the Tour is
won. The race will start to get interesting on Wednesday,
which is the Team Time Trial. Watch for USPS to win, and win
big. Armstrong will be in yellow before long, but not today
or tomorrow.

Lance will pretty much take it easy and just try to stay
within an easy reach of the leaders for the first few
stages. When it comes to the really brutal mountain stages
and the time trials, that is where he will excel and blow
away the competition. Winning in the flatter stages is
pretty meaningless in the TDF. Usually some no names win
the first few stages. Also, winning a stage is a way for
some of the "lesser" riders to gain recognition. The big
name guys usually don't try to showboat and win a lot of
stages. The winner of the TDF is usually the strongest time
trialist who is also one of the better climbers. It's also
a function of who has the strongest team. A strong team
will protect a good rider and enable him to stay rested for
the key moments.

Watch for Lance to take the lead in either the first time
trial or the first severe climbing stage.

"NYRides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm with you. I don't get it, either. I'm trying hard to
follow this thing, but, being completely dumb about how
the TDF works, I'm totally perplexed when I see everybody
else winning, yet I hear the announcers talking about how
Lance is on his way to another sureshot victory. Maybe
that's why they don't bother to cover it much on network
TV or basic

cable.

Quoted message said:

Somebody help!!!!

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The announcers were just talking about Lance hanging in
like 8th place

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stay out of trouble and stuff, and I don't see him in
any of the stages, except for the 2nd place in the
Prologue. Yet they're talking about this

as

Quoted message said:

a winning strategy.

How can he do this. Uh, I'm pretty clueless about how
they score and get "points" and stuff, so if there's a
FAQ for TdF dummies, a pointer

perhaps?

Quoted message said:

Do you have to win a certain number of stages, or do you
just hang back

and

Quoted message said:

then get a time lead in the mountains or something?

Sorry for the possibly dumb questions on this... ;-)

-B

Badger_South said:

The announcers were just talking about Lance hanging in
like 8th place to stay out of trouble and stuff, and I
don't see him in any of the stages, except for the 2nd
place in the Prologue. Yet they're talking about this as a
winning strategy.

Quoted message said:

How can he do this.

Quoted message said:

Do you have to win a certain number of stages, or do you
just hang back and then get a time lead in the mountains
or something?

The overall winner is the rider with the least agregate time
at the end of the three weeks of racing, less any time
bonuses picked up along the way (for example, for winning
stages or intermediate sprints).

The overwhelming aerodynamic advantage of the peloton on
flat stages means that breakaways rarely succeed, and most
of the riders (because they arrive in a pack) receive the
same time.

Mass finishes are contested by sprint specialists (like
Robbie McEwen and Mario Cipolini) who try to win glory for
themselves and their sponsors and cash for their teams by
snatching stage wins. Those who expect to make it across the
Alps and Pyrenees also have an eye on the green jersey,
awarded to the rider who collects the most points from stage
wins and intermediate sprints. Sprints can be dangerous, and
the risk of a crash means that no overall contender will
risk taking part. The ideal position is near the front of
the peloton (to reduce the risk of being trapped behind a
major crash) but not too near.

A few flat stages are won by lucky breakaway riders who time
their escapes well, or whose chance of an overall victory is
deemed so slim that the peloton doesn't deign to expend the
energy required to chase them down. Any attempt at a break
by a major player would prompt an immediate response from
his rivals and their team mates, so again, the big names sit
tight in the peloton while the small fry are allowed a
little glory.

The mountain stages and time trials are where big gains can
be made. The aerodynamic advantage of the peloton
disappears, and large amounts of time can be gained and
lost. The climbing specialists and overall contenders fight
it out in the Alps and Pyrenees, while the sprinters either
pack their bags and head for the beach, or straggle home
inside the daily time limit to remain in contention for the
green jersey in Paris. The domestiques do everything they
can to provide support for their team leaders, while
conserving as much energy as possible to allow them to do
the same day after day.

This year's first hilly stage is stage 10 in the Massif
Central from Limoges to St-Flour, with the first real
mountain stage two days later. With the new rules for losses
in the team time trial, I wouldn't expect to see any major
gaps opening up before then.

Quoted message said:

Uh, I'm pretty clueless about how they score and get
"points" and stuff, so if there's a FAQ for TdF dummies, a
pointer perhaps?

There's a FAQ from 1999 on the TdF site that should answer
some of your questions:

letour.frfaq2.htmlOpen ↗

and the BBC website is a pretty good introduction:

news.bbc.co.ukcycOpen ↗
ling/newsid_3022000/3022950.stm

or

tinyurl.com2gv7nOpen ↗

HTH

James Thomson

or:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=features/FAQ

This is true, but I believe they have changed the TTT. They
can only lose something like 2 minutes 30 seconds at the
most. There is some sort of cap I believe, which seems
strange to me. I mean if a team is not going to be in the
running, they can just kick back and ride like a Sunday
stroll because they know they will only lose 2 1/2 minutes.

Curt

"Gooserider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No such thing as a dumb question, Badger. Lance is trying
to put time on

his

Quoted message said:

primary rivals(Ullrich, Hamilton, Mayo). The first couple
of stages are

for

Quoted message said:

the sprinters--long, and fairly flat, with a bunch finish.
Sprinters die

in

Quoted message said:

the mountains and on time trials, which is where the Tour
is won. The race will start to get interesting on
Wednesday, which is the Team Time Trial. Watch for USPS to
win, and win big. Armstrong will be in yellow before

long,

Quoted message said:

but not today or tomorrow.

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 03:02:54 +0200, "James Thomson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

There's a FAQ from 1999 on the TdF site that should answer
some of your questions:

letour.frfaq2.htmlOpen ↗

and the BBC website is a pretty good introduction:

news.bbc.co.ukcyOpen ↗
cling/newsid_3022000/3022950.stm

or

tinyurl.com2gv7nOpen ↗

HTH

James Thomson

JT, Thanks a bunch. Makes sense. Appreciate your typing that
out - I'm sure a lot of other ng members found it
interesting and greatly helpful.

Looks like both sites give a pretty good overview.

-B

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is true, but I believe they have changed the TTT.
They can only lose something like 2 minutes 30 seconds at
the most. There is some sort of

cap

Quoted message said:

I believe, which seems strange to me. I mean if a team is
not going to be in the running, they can just kick back
and ride like a Sunday stroll because they know they will
only lose 2 1/2 minutes.

I think it's 3 minutes. It's bogus. It does give teams the
possibility of laying up, but Postal's in a good position
because they should be starting last.

"Gooserider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is true, but I believe they have changed the TTT.
They can only

lose

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

something like 2 minutes 30 seconds at the most. There
is some sort of

cap

Quoted message said:

I believe, which seems strange to me. I mean if a team
is not going to

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the running, they can just kick back and ride like a
Sunday stroll because they know they will only lose 2
1/2 minutes.

I think it's 3 minutes. It's bogus. It does give teams the
possibility of laying up, but Postal's in a good position
because they should be starting last.

Yes, my mistake. It is 3 minutes.

The TdF is sort of hard to understand if you are not into
cycling and now they do this crazy new math deal for the
TTT. I think it is a mistake, but what can you do?

I will say this however...I do enjoy watching it and it will
be getting pretty interesting when the TTT starts and we get
into the mountains. Hope Lance can stay out of trouble and I
am also hoping that Jan does very well too. I am wanting to
see those two battle it out like last year. It was awesome.

Curt

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

James Thomson said:

There's a FAQ from 1999 on the TdF site that should
answer some of your questions:

letour.frfaq2.htmlOpen ↗

and the BBC website is a pretty good introduction:

news.bbc.co.ukcyOpen ↗
cling/newsid_3022

000/3022950.stm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or

tinyurl.com2gv7nOpen ↗

HTH

James Thomson

JT, Thanks a bunch. Makes sense. Appreciate your typing
that out - I'm

sure

Quoted message said:

a lot of other ng members found it interesting and greatly
helpful.

Looks like both sites give a pretty good overview.

-B

Maybe you've come across this fact elsewhere, but I
haven't seen it covered here. When a group of riders cross
the line in a big bunch, it doesn't matter who crosses
first and who crosses 50th ... they're all awarded the
same time. On most stages, time bonuses are added for the
top three finishers. I can't recall exactly how much the
bonuses are ... something like 12 seconds for first, 6 for
second and 3 for third.

On a stage like today's, the sprinters are vying for those
12 second bonuses and killing themselves at the front. But
Lance and his main rivals are content to roll in 20 or 30
riders down the line because they'll get the same time. The
bonuses won't matter 'cuz the sprinters suffer badly in the
mountains. Lance and his main rivals will easily put
several minutes into the sprinters on each of the key
mountain stages.

So, again, all the riders arriving together in a big bunch
will get the same time. If there's a gap between riders that
can be measured, you'll see a gap in the results. The reason
for doing this is to keep the size of the sprinting field
smaller for safety. It's one thing to have a dozen top
sprinters vying for the win and the rest of the peloton just
cruising across the line in their wake. It would be another
thing altogether if the entire peloton were all sprinting
like crazy for every second they could get. That would be a
crash-fest.

Bob C.

Sherry Katz said:

Lance will pretty much take it easy and just try to stay
within an easy reach of the leaders for the first few
stages. When it comes to the really brutal mountain stages
and the time trials, that is where he will excel and blow
away the competition.

I'm with you so far.

Quoted message said:

Winning in the flatter stages is pretty meaningless in the
TDF. Usually some no names win the first few stages.

You mean like Robbie McEwen, Baden Cooke, Erik Zabel and
Alessandro Petacchi? Did you mean those no names?

Winning any stage means something. It's points. It's money.
It's prestige. It's bragging rights. Yes, the guys who win
the flatter regular road stages tend not to be the people on
the podium in Paris. That doesn't make their achievements
meaningless.

Quoted message said:

Also, winning a stage is a way for some of the "lesser"
riders to gain recognition. The big name guys usually
don't try to showboat and win a lot of stages.

The big name sprinters do. See above. However, yes, some
younger, lesser known riders win some of these and yes, it
does get them some recognition. That translates to more
demand for their services in the future (and higher
salaries). I think that means something.

Quoted message said:

The winner of the TDF is usually the strongest time
trialist who is also one of the better climbers. It's also
a function of who has the strongest team. A strong team
will protect a good rider and enable him to stay rested
for the key moments.

Generally true.

Quoted message said:

Watch for Lance to take the lead in either the first time
trial or the first severe climbing stage.

Maybe. We don't know his exact tactics. He does tend to
attack in the mountains though.

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Gooserider" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>

I will say this however...I do enjoy watching it and it
will be getting pretty interesting when the TTT starts and
we get into the mountains.

Hope

Quoted message said:

Lance can stay out of trouble and I am also hoping that
Jan does very well too. I am wanting to see those two
battle it out like last year. It was awesome.

The TTT should be great. I think Hamilton is going to be
Lance's biggest rival this year. Two Americans on the final
podium is not impossible. Ullrich is a threat but I don't
think he can hang on in the mountains, and he's not a great
descender. Should be a heck of a Tour, for certain.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

The announcers were just talking about Lance hanging in
like 8th place to stay out of trouble and stuff, and I
don't see him in any of the stages, except for the 2nd
place in the Prologue. Yet they're talking about this as a
winning strategy.

How can he do this. Uh, I'm pretty clueless about how they
score and get "points" and stuff, so if there's a FAQ for
TdF dummies, a pointer perhaps?

Do you have to win a certain number of stages, or do you
just hang back and then get a time lead in the mountains
or something?

Sorry for the possibly dumb questions on this... ;-)

There a couple of key things to remember: one is that it's
total TIME, not POINTS which matter. Two is that if you
finish with the peloton (pack), everybody in the pack gets
the same time except the winner and 2nd place (and maybe
3rd), who get bonuses of (IIRC) 20 seconds and 12 seconds,
respectively.

In a flat stage, the sprinters go for the stage win to get
the time bonuses, and everybody else just tries to stay with
the pack so they get the same time as everybody else. The
real time separation comes in the mountains (when there is
usually no pack by the end) and the time trials, when
everybody gets the time they actually earn.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in
the newsgroups if possible).

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The announcers were just talking about Lance hanging in
like 8th place

to

Quoted message said:

stay out of trouble and stuff, and I don't see him in
any of the stages, except for the 2nd place in the
Prologue. Yet they're talking about this

as

Quoted message said:

a winning strategy.

How can he do this. Uh, I'm pretty clueless about how
they score and get "points" and stuff, so if there's a
FAQ for TdF dummies, a pointer

perhaps?

Quoted message said:

Do you have to win a certain number of stages, or do you
just hang back

and

Quoted message said:

then get a time lead in the mountains or something?

Sorry for the possibly dumb questions on this... ;-)

-B

The winner is the rider who completes the entire tour in
the shortest time. The fact that Armstrong Hamilton
Ullrich et al are currently within one minute of the
leader means nothing until the going gets tough. Then the
above could easily get the deficit back plus several more
minutes in one day.

It's important to remember that the tour isn't 23
separate races but that each days time is cumulative.
There are of course special bonuses on each day for
sprints, and hill climbs and the daily first past the
post but they all in seconds and pale compared to the
deadly mountain stages. This is why many riders are in it
for the special "jerseys" for sprints etc. They have
little chance of winning the general classification but
excel in certain elements.

"James Thomson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

A few flat stages are won by lucky breakaway riders who
time their escapes well, or whose chance of an overall
victory is deemed so slim that the peloton doesn't deign
to expend the energy required to chase them down.

Any

Quoted message said:

attempt at a break by a major player would prompt an
immediate response from his rivals and their team mates,
so again, the big names sit tight in the peloton while the
small fry are allowed a little glory.

The mountain stages and time trials are where big gains
can be made. The aerodynamic advantage of the peloton
disappears, and large amounts of time can be gained and
lost. The climbing specialists and overall contenders
fight it out in the Alps and Pyrenees, while the sprinters
either pack their bags and head for the beach, or straggle
home inside the daily time limit to remain in contention
for the green jersey in Paris.

I believe the rule is that the last rider must finish each
day within 10 percent of that day's ride time of the leader,
thus a 5 hr. finish time for the stage win means that the
Lantern Rouge (red lantern, or last rider on the train, or
however it's spelled in French) must finish no more then 30
minutes back.

Wasn't it in '02 (if memory serves) that a breakaway of "non-
contenders" (so to speak) got a huge lead, finishing so far
ahead of the peloton that, according to the rules, ALL of
the trailing peloton finished outside the time cut ?, and
should have been eliminated from the rest of the Tour ?. The
peloton consisted of all of the big names of course and it
would have left the Tour with 12 riders or so. Couldn't have
that of course, especially in the first week.

Can't remember what part of the rule book they quoted to
keep the race alive....

Steve B.

"Gooserider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Gooserider" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
>>

I will say this however...I do enjoy watching it and it
will be getting pretty interesting when the TTT starts
and we get into the mountains.

Hope

Quoted message said:

Lance can stay out of trouble and I am also hoping that
Jan does very

well

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

too. I am wanting to see those two battle it out like
last year. It

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

awesome.

The TTT should be great. I think Hamilton is going to be
Lance's biggest rival this year. Two Americans on the
final podium is not impossible. Ullrich is a threat but I
don't think he can hang on in the mountains, and he's not
a great descender. Should be a heck of a Tour, for
certain.

I feel Jan is the biggest competitor to Lance as Lance
himself believes. I really don't feel Tyler is strong
enough to really be a contender...JMHO. Regardless, it was
fun to watch today and I feel it is really going to be a
great tour again.

Curt

curt said:

Quoted message said:

The TTT should be great. I think Hamilton is going to be
Lance's biggest rival this year. Two Americans on the
final podium is not impossible. Ullrich is a threat but I
don't think he can hang on in the mountains, and he's not
a great descender. Should be a heck of a Tour, for
certain.

I feel Jan is the biggest competitor to Lance as Lance
himself believes. I really don't feel Tyler is strong
enough to really be a contender...JMHO. Regardless, it was
fun to watch today and I feel it is really going to be a
great tour again.

Curt

Most recently the oddsmakers are putting Lance as the
favorite 1:1.6, with Ulrich ~ 2.6:1, and Tyler at
~12:1, FWIW.

-B

Steve said:

I believe the rule is that the last rider must finish each
day within 10 percent of that day's ride time of the
leader, thus a 5 hr. finish time for the stage win means
that the Lantern Rouge (red lantern, or last rider on the
train, or however it's spelled in French) must finish no
more then 30 minutes back.

The Tour website says that:

Depending on the type of stage and the difficulties
involved, finishing deadlines are calculated based
coefficients.

In practice, the organisers publish a table of time limits
based on a percentage of the time of the winner that varies
with his average speed. Different percentages are used based
on the length and hilliness of the stage.

Quoted message said:

Wasn't it in '02 (if memory serves) that a breakaway of
"non- contenders" (so to speak) got a huge lead,
finishing so far ahead of the peloton that, according to
the rules, ALL of the trailing peloton finished outside
the time cut ?, and should have been eliminated from the
rest of the Tour ?. The peloton consisted of all of the
big names of course and it would have left the Tour with
12 riders or so. Couldn't have that of course, especially
in the first week.

Colmar - Pontarlier (stage 8) in 2001.

letour.frlive.oftOpen ↗
ceType=TDF&RaceYear=2001&StageNumber=800&Language=ANG

or

tinyurl.com2k2jkOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Can't remember what part of the rule book they quoted to
keep the race alive....

"All rules shall be applied at the discretion of the race
committee"

James Thomson

James Thomson said:

In practice, the organisers publish a table of time limits
based on a percentage of the time of the winner that
varies with his average speed. Different percentages are
used based on the length and hilliness of the stage.

The coeffecients (and the clause on the committee's
discretion) are published here:

letour.frreglement us.pdfOpen ↗

Article 22 - Permitted finishing times (page 12)

James Thomson