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Darwinian evolution=Armageddon?

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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5 July 2004
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Michael Ragland
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  1. I disagree with Mr. Buck who is not a scientist but I like
    his spirit. (his brief article is below) He is a socialist
    and of course if one does subscribe to biological
    determinism then the idea of socialism is shattered. But its
    interesting to note there appears to be two camps among
    followers of biological determinism. The first camp sees
    nothing wrong with biological determinism. It's a part of
    our Darwinian nature and should be fully expressed rather
    than attempted to be thwarted or suppressed. The second
    camp, among which I include myself, acknowledges biological
    determinism but don't think it should be fully expressed but
    don't believe ultimately it can be thwarted. This camp seems
    to be in the minority. There is a third camp which takes the
    middle road which neither believes our Darwinian nature
    should be fully expressed but that it can be sufficiently
    controlled. This is probably the majority camp.

    That is why I advocate genetic engineering of people.
    Because I do agree generally with people like Pinker. I
    think if Darwinian evolution is permitted to continue it
    will result in our destruction as a species. Aggression is
    a salient component of Darwinian evolution. Will anybody
    seriously question that. Can anybody seriously question the
    continuation of extreme violence around the world which is
    not primarily culturally fueled but a part of our biology.
    I realize some would take issue with this and state such
    violence was primarily culturally fueled but I don't
    believe that.

    I'd welcome a response from the likes of Wilkins, Atmar,
    Moran, Felsenstein, Dr. Hayes, etc. whether they consider
    the continuation of Darwinian evolution (assuming there is
    no genetic intervention) to ultimately lead to the
    destruction of our species. I know nobody has a direct
    crystal ball to the future but I'm requesting a projection
    based on our evolutionary history up to the present and
    projecting into the future. Based on what Wilkins has
    recently stated regarding NS it would certainly seem that is
    a possibility. But I'm hopefully looking for more than just
    a possibility. I guess I'm asking for your personal opinion
    as opposed to your scientific expertise. The may not be
    warranted in this group but I'd sure be curious.

    I'm also curious where you all fall on the biological
    determinism debate. My "guess" is most of you are neither
    hardliners or the opposite where there is no aspect of our
    biology which isn't somewhat biologically determined. The
    question is how determined and under what circumstances it
    can internationally violently flare up.

    I think I might hear the echoes of the Grand Canyon.

    Michael Ragland

    Evolutionary pseudo-psychology

    Is competition, leadership, aggression, possessiveness, and
    social and

    biologically-determined human nature?

    Socialists have seen it all before. First it was the Social
    Darwinists, then it was the Nazis, then in the 1960s books
    appeared with such titles as The Territorial Imperative, On
    Aggression and The Naked Ape, then there was sociobiology,
    now there's "evolutionary psychology". All put over the same
    basic message: competition, leadership, aggression,

    never have a society without them as they're part of biologically-
    determined human nature.

    In reply, socialists have pointed out that the people
    concerned were not writing as competent scientists but as
    ideologists serving privileged interests and/or pandering to
    popular prejudice. In fact the real scientific evidence
    proved the opposite: humans were of course the product of
    biological evolution but their particular evolutionary
    inheritance in the form of a complex brain allowed them to
    learn and live out a great variety of different behaviour
    patterns; one key feature of human biological nature was
    precisely this capacity for flexible behaviour, the capacity
    to adapt human behaviour to cope with the challenges
    presented by the natural and the social environments which
    humans had to live in.

    Humans can be competitive, aggressive, possessive, etc but
    we can also be—and are—co-operative, friendly and sharing.
    Groups of humans have lived in conditions of social equality
    in the past and so could do so again. The basic position of
    the so-called evolutionary psychologists is put by one of
    their gurus, Steven Pinker, in his book, How The Mind Works:

    "For ninety-nine percent of human existence, people lived as
    foragers in small nomadic herds. Our brains are adapted to
    that long-vanished way of life, not to brand-new
    agricultural and industrial civilisations. They are not
    wired to cope with anonymous crowds, schooling, written
    language, government, police, courts, armies, modern
    medicine, formal social institutions, high technology, and
    other newcomers to the human experience"

    If this figure of 99 percent is meant to be taken literally,
    and assuming that human societies practising agriculture
    first came into being 10,000 years ago, the "people" Pinker
    is talking about would be those living about 1 million years
    ago. These were certainly members of the genus [censored], but of
    the long-extinct species [censored] erectus rather than our own
    species [censored] sapiens. In fact modern humans are generally
    regarded as not having evolved until some 100,000 or perhaps
    150,000 years ago.

    Human embryo: inherently greedy?

    The argument is not that the human brain is not a biological
    adaptation that better fitted humans for surviving, but
    whether this adaptation was just best for living as foragers
    on the African savannah or whether it was a more general
    capacity to adjust to whatever environment humans found
    themselves living in.

    The fact that even [censored] erectus left Africa to settle and
    survive in different environments suggests the latter. This
    is strengthened by the fact that the evolutionary
    psychologists have failed to come up with any credible
    theory as to how complicated behaviour patterns such as they
    speak of could be governed by genes. For that's what their
    argument amounts to—that the behaviour pattern appropriate
    to a foraging life on the African savannah somehow got
    imprinted on the brains of the species that immediately
    preceded us and which we modern humans have inherited
    through our (and their) genes. In fact, it amounts to a
    revival, with regard to mental characteristics, of the long-
    discredited theory that acquired characteristics can be
    inherited.

    As a number of contributors to Alas, Poor Darwin. Arguments
    Against Evolutionary Psychology (ed. Hilary and Steven Rose,
    Jonathan Cape) show, this is not how the brain works. It has
    long been known that the 18th century materialist view such
    as that of Robert Owen of the mind as a blank sheet on which
    the environment can imprint anything is wrong; the brain
    plays a much more active role in the learning process. We
    also know, thanks to recent advances in genetics and
    neuroscience, that some capacities (such as the ability to
    distinguish faces or to tell distance and perspective)
    correspond to certain parts of the brain. It is this that
    the evolutionary psychologists—and others who believe that
    complex behaviour patterns are innate and that there is, for
    instance, a

    ignore is that the brain is not fully "wired up" (to use one
    of their favourite metaphors) at birth but that this "wiring
    up" is a process that takes place as we grow up and learn
    and in fact continues throughout our lives. We are not born
    with pre-programmed patterns of behaviour.

    We learn how to behave after we are born (indeed, this
    starts while we are still in the womb) and in so doing
    "programme" or "wire up", or whatever metaphor you want to
    use, our brains. We are animals that are capable of adopting
    a great variety of behaviour patterns.

    The nature of our brain allows us, as participants in a
    particular system of society, to "programme" ourselves, in
    ways that neuroscience is beginning to understand in more
    detail, for living in that society.

    This means that it is just as natural for us humans to live
    in a society with written language, formal social
    institutions and high technology as on the African savannah.
    If Pinker and his followers really believe that they are
    better adapted genetically to living on the African savannah
    than in contemporary capitalism or future socialist society
    then there is an easy way to test this: dump them naked in
    East Africa and see whether or not the "basic instincts"
    they suppose themselves to have allow them to survive better
    there than in Boston or Los Angeles.

    Unfortunately, Alas, Poor Darwin cannot be recommended as a
    fully effective presentation of the case against
    evolutionary psychology. Some of the contributors do set out
    cogently enough the points made in the previous paragraphs
    but, unfortunately, some of the other "arguments against
    evolutionary psychology" are trivial or wrong. For instance,
    the first contributor merely criticises the form in which
    evolutionary psychologists present their arguments while the
    second (a raving postmodernist) criticises not just
    biological determinism but all determinisms including
    therefore social determinisms such as the materialist
    conception of history. Even Steven Rose himself questions
    the reasonable assumption—in fact the only reasonable
    assumption of evolutionary psychology—that humans won't have
    changed genetically since we modern humans first evolved
    some 100,000 years ago. And a contribution from a physical
    anthropologist is a glaring omission.. Someone like Richard
    Leakey could have delivered a knock-out blow against the
    evolutionary psychologists in the first round.

    ADAM BUICK

    A professor asked a student, "If you had a choice between
    the oppressed and the oppressor which would you choose." The
    student replied, "Neither". The Professor shook his head and
    stated, "You don't have a choice." The student paused and
    said, "The oppressed".

  2. Michael Ragland said:

    I disagree with Mr. Buck who is not a scientist but I like
    his spirit. (his brief article is below) He is a socialist
    and of course if one does subscribe to biological
    determinism then the idea of socialism is shattered. But
    its interesting to note there appears to be two camps
    among followers of biological determinism. The first camp
    sees nothing wrong with biological determinism. It's a
    part of our Darwinian nature and should be fully expressed
    rather than attempted to be thwarted or suppressed. The
    second camp, among which I include myself, acknowledges
    biological determinism but don't think it should be fully
    expressed but don't believe ultimately it can be thwarted.
    This camp seems to be in the minority. There is a third
    camp which takes the middle road which neither believes
    our Darwinian nature should be fully expressed but that it
    can be sufficiently controlled. This is probably the
    majority camp.

    That is why I advocate genetic engineering of people.
    Because I do agree generally with people like Pinker. I
    think if Darwinian evolution is permitted to continue it
    will result in our destruction as a species. Aggression is
    a salient component of Darwinian evolution. Will anybody
    seriously question that. Can anybody seriously question
    the continuation of extreme violence around the world
    which is not primarily culturally fueled but a part of our
    biology. I realize some would take issue with this and
    state such violence was primarily culturally fueled but I
    don't believe that.

    I'd welcome a response from the likes of Wilkins, Atmar,
    Moran, Felsenstein, Dr. Hayes, etc. whether they consider
    the continuation of Darwinian evolution (assuming there is
    no genetic intervention) to ultimately lead to the
    destruction of our species. I know nobody has a direct
    crystal ball to the future but I'm requesting a projection
    based on our evolutionary history up to the present and
    projecting into the future. Based on what Wilkins has
    recently stated regarding NS it would certainly seem that
    is a possibility. But I'm hopefully looking for more than
    just a possibility. I guess I'm asking for your personal
    opinion as opposed to your scientific expertise. The may
    not be warranted in this group but I'd sure be curious.

    You aren't supposed to *ask* me for my opinion - I might
    tell you. Oh, very well... My view is that selection will
    not drive an entire widespread species like ours to
    anything; adaptation is local to the deme or metapopulation.
    *Prior* adaptations may just result in our extinction - I'm
    thinking of our adaptations that lead us to xenophobia and
    violence. But that is not selection, except in the sense
    that these adaptations are pleiotropically linked to genes
    that *are* under selection.

    Quoted message said:


    I'm also curious where you all fall on the biological
    determinism debate. My "guess" is most of you are neither
    hardliners or the opposite where there is no aspect of our
    biology which isn't somewhat biologically determined. The
    question is how determined and under what circumstances it
    can internationally violently flare up.

    Assuming you meant aspect of our *psychology* I am a strong
    determinist
    - nothing we do or say is not strongly biased by our
    biological nature. But biological natures have a norm of
    reaction and a normal distribution (or a skewed one, but
    that is evidence in a largish population of some selective
    pressure). In short, there are a wide range of states that
    our biological natures can attain, and they very much
    depend on contingent effects of the developmental
    environments, social, and ecological.

    It is not a widely accepted viewpoint, I know.

    The essay you quoted reiterates the standard fare - that
    socialists cannot be biological determinists (why not?
    Perhaps Kropotkin was right and we are biological
    cooperators), that determinism is social Darwinism (there
    never was such a thing but once; all the rest is just
    labelling); etc. But the evidence is mounting and we just
    have to deal with it.

    My view on genetic engineering is that, like any technology,
    it all depends on the goals, the sensitivity of the
    practioners to evidence, and the potential cost of failure.
    We build bridges that way - we should employ genetic
    therapies the same way. Eliminate Tay-Sachs? Go for it.
    Engineer thin-hipped women with classic faces? Not on your
    life... the unintended outcomes of that sort of employment
    of technology on a complex developmental program will have
    major side-effects (what if they are subject to breast
    cancer, or are developmentally delayed?). Somewhere in
    between, experience will teach us what is worthwhile and
    what is not.

    So far as eugenics is concerned, the worry is not that the
    techniques will not work, for they will if we apply good
    science (after all, they have for thousands of years). The
    worry is who gets to make those decisions, and what they and
    we must pay when it fails, if it does.

    --
    Dr John Wilkins [email hidden]
    wilkins.id.auwilkins.id.au "Men mark it when they hit, but do not
    mark it when they miss"
    - Francis
    Bacon

  3. Michael Ragland said:

    I disagree with Mr. Buck who is not a scientist but I like
    his spirit. (his brief article is below) He is a socialist
    and of course if one does subscribe to biological
    determinism then the idea of socialism is shattered. But
    its interesting to note there appears to be two camps
    among followers of biological determinism. The first camp
    sees nothing wrong with biological determinism. It's a
    part of our Darwinian nature and should be fully expressed
    rather than attempted to be thwarted or suppressed. The
    second camp, among which I include myself, acknowledges
    biological determinism but don't think it should be fully
    expressed but don't believe ultimately it can be thwarted.
    This camp seems to be in the minority. There is a third
    camp which takes the middle road which neither believes
    our Darwinian nature should be fully expressed but that it
    can be sufficiently controlled. This is probably the
    majority camp.

    That is why I advocate genetic engineering of people.
    Because I do agree generally with people like Pinker. I
    think if Darwinian evolution is permitted to continue it
    will result in our destruction as a species.

    I think that's an absurd assertion. Add up all the people
    who die or are wounded from acts of violence every year and
    compare that number to the total of all human beings -- 6
    billion or so. What percentage do you think you will get?
    The percentage will obviously vary from year to year, but
    what do you think the average is?

    Let's see. Suppose that 1 million people died or were
    wounded in 2003 from all acts of violence. That's a
    number that is probably way high, but let's err on the
    side of overestimation. 1 million people is 0.017% of 6
    billion people.

    Point is, although acts of violence like civil wars,
    terrorism, homicide, executions, and violent repression by
    authoritarian regimes are on the news every day and grab our
    attention, only a very small percentage of the total human
    population falls victim to it. In fact, the vast majority of
    human beings neither commit violence on other human beings
    nor are victims. We control our violent aggressions quite
    successfully as a species.

    Quoted message said:

    Aggression is a salient component of Darwinian evolution.
    Will anybody seriously question that.

    Are you counting human cultural evolution as "Darwinian
    evolution"? If so, not just aggression is a salient
    component of it. So is cooperation, morality, love,
    government, religion and all the other parts of human
    culture that hold societies together. And these components
    taken together completely swamp aggression, as I pointed
    out above.

    Can anybody seriously question the continuation

    Quoted message said:

    of extreme violence around the world which is not
    primarily culturally fueled but a part of our biology. I
    realize some would take issue with this and state such
    violence was primarily culturally fueled but I don't
    believe that.

    What is this either/or [censored]? Aggression is both part of our
    biology and culturally fueled.

    Quoted message said:


    I'd welcome a response from the likes of Wilkins, Atmar,
    Moran, Felsenstein, Dr. Hayes, etc. whether they consider
    the continuation of Darwinian evolution (assuming there is
    no genetic intervention) to ultimately lead to the
    destruction of our species.

    By all means, query the experts.

    [snip the rest]

    [email hidden]

  4. Michael Ragland <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Quoted message said:

    That is why I advocate genetic engineering of people.
    Because I do agree generally with people like Pinker. I
    think if Darwinian evolution is permitted to continue it
    will result in our destruction as a species. Aggression is
    a salient component of Darwinian evolution. Will anybody
    seriously question that. Can anybody seriously question
    the continuation of extreme violence around the world
    which is not primarily culturally fueled but a part of our
    biology. I realize some would take issue with this and
    state such violence was primarily culturally fueled but I
    don't believe that.

    I'd welcome a response from the likes of Wilkins, Atmar,
    Moran, Felsenstein, Dr. Hayes, etc. whether they consider
    the continuation of Darwinian evolution (assuming there is
    no genetic intervention) to ultimately lead to the
    destruction of our species.

    Future organisms *will* be designed.

    Certainly if some members of the human race were to choose
    not to employ design, then they will eventually be wiped out
    by others who do.

    My essay on the subject:

    alife.co.ukengineered future

    Looking at all the stuff humans are currently busy
    designing, them rejecting design seems unlikely to me.

    Assuming we continue to embrace design, the main
    possibilities for life not consisting (in large part) of
    descendants of the human race in the future would then look
    something like:

    * Invasion by aliens too advanced to bother assimilating us;
    * Failure to get off the planet before we run out of
    resources (or the sun explodes);
    * Getting wiped out by our creations;
    * Getting wiped out by intelligent machines;
    * Getting wiped out by nanotechnology;
    * Getting wiped out competitors/predators;
    * Getting wiped out pathogens;

    The only one of these that I reckon might constite a serious
    long-term risk is the first one.
    --
    __________
    |im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.org [email hidden] Remove
    lock to reply.

  5. "John Wilkins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Michael Ragland said:

    I disagree with Mr. Buck who is not a scientist but I
    like his spirit. (his brief article is below) He is a
    socialist and of course if one does subscribe to
    biological determinism then the idea of socialism is
    shattered. [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    Assuming you meant aspect of our *psychology* I am a
    strong determinist
    - nothing we do or say is not strongly biased by our
    biological nature. But biological natures have a norm of
    reaction and a normal distribution (or a skewed one, but
    that is evidence in a largish population of some
    selective pressure). In short, there are a wide range of
    states that our biological natures can attain, and they
    very much depend on contingent effects of the
    developmental environments, social, and ecological.

    It is not a widely accepted viewpoint, I know.

    John has recently directed me to the writings of Susan Oyama
    and the "Developmental Systems Theory" school. You, Michael,
    may also be interested. This movement (primarily one of the
    political left) rejects the conventional dichotomy between
    nature and nurture. It endorses both biological AND cultural
    determinism - we are, say, 90% determined by each - that is,
    many things are jointly determined.

    I would recommend her book "Evolution's Eye: A Systems View
    of the Biology-Culture Divide". It has a good chapter on
    aggression, which, to my mind, hits the nail squarely on the
    head. And I'm not even a leftist.

  6. "dkomo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:


    Let's see. Suppose that 1 million people died or were
    wounded > in 2003


    from all acts of violence. That's a number that is

    Quoted message said:

    probably way high, but let's err on the side of
    overestimation. 1 million people is 0.017% of 6
    billion people.

    Point is, although acts of violence like civil wars,
    terrorism, homicide, executions, and violent repression by
    authoritarian regimes are on the news every day and grab
    our attention, only a very small percentage of the total
    human population falls victim to it. In fact, the vast
    majority of human beings neither commit violence on other
    human beings nor are victims. We control our violent
    aggressions quite successfully as a species.


    The problem with this is that you are extrapolating
    peacetime homicide rates in Western countries to the human
    condtion as a whole. In fact typical hunter-gather homicide
    rates are quite high, and fighting may even be the factor
    that controls the population size. In the West, homicide
    rates are quite low, probably because such incidents are
    always investigated and police techniques are very good.
    However when you look at violence which isn't prosecuted as
    rigorously you will see that the fear of mugging, or of
    drunken brawling, is still very significant. The other thing
    you have forgotten is that though homicide rates are low in
    peacetime, even modern Western societies have frequently
    been at war.

    Quoted message said:


    What is this either/or [censored]? Aggression is both part of
    our biology and culturally fueled.


    I agree with you here. There are no "biological
    determinists", though there are "cultural determinists",
    people who assert that genetic differences between people
    are not a factor in different behaviour.

  7. Michael Ragland <[email hidden]> wrote:

    ...

    Quoted message said:


    John Wilkins: .. My view is that selection will not drive
    an entire widespread species like ours to anything;
    adaptation is local to the deme or metapopulation.

    Ragland: Forgive my ignorance. What is a "deme" and a
    "metapopulation". I get the impression a "metapopulation"
    is a large sized population.

    A deme is a population formed by breeding individuals,
    locally. It is a smaller thing than a species.

    Most species that have an extended range are formed of a
    number of metapopulations, which is a group of demes that
    share their genes. A species at any time may have more than
    one metapopulation (if, for example, a deme or more is
    isolated geographically temporarily).

    As adaptation affects the frequencies of alleles in a
    population, selection can only affect, at most, a
    metapopulation that shares selective pressures. But any
    species that is widely extended will cover a range of
    selective pressures, and so selection will not be uniform
    across the entire range. As a result, for humans, which
    *are* a widely ranging species, selection cannot really
    apply evenly across the entire species.

    Quoted message said:


    John Wilkins: *Prior* adaptations may just result in our
    extinction - I'm thinking of our adaptations that lead us
    to xenophobia and violence. But that is not selection,
    except in the sense that these adaptations are
    pleiotropically linked to genes that *are* under
    selection.

    Ragland: Okay. But at one time aggression, xenophobia,
    etc. were apart of selection. If they are pleiotropically
    linked to genes under selection why wouldn't they
    theoretically still be under selection? For example,
    assuming Darwinian evolution was given enough time
    wouldn't it be possible aggression would be under
    selection and gradually it would be "removed" since it was
    no longer adaptive?

    In environments where aggression is selectively
    disadvantaged. But the majority of humans today, whether
    they live in small tribal arrangements or large cosmopolitan
    environments, live in situations where aggression is not so
    disadvantaged.

    This sets up a situation where group selection may be
    invoked - those groups that are less aggressive may in fact
    be overrun by aggressive groups. It's happened before.

    Quoted message said:


    Ragland: I'm also curious where you all fall on the
    biological determinism debate. My "guess" is most of you
    are neither hardliners or the opposite where there is no
    aspect of our biology which isn't somewhat biologically
    determined. The question is how determined and under what
    circumstances it can internationally violently flare up.

    John Wilkins: Assuming you meant aspect of our
    *psychology* I am a strong determinist
    - nothing we do or say is not strongly biased by our
    biological nature. But biological natures have a norm of
    reaction and a normal distribution (or a skewed one, but
    that is evidence in a largish population of some
    selective pressure).

    Ragland: What is largish. I'm intelligent but not
    well read.

    Selective models tend to apply to panmictic populations
    (where there is a relatively even probability of any two
    alleles mixing), and where the size of the population does
    not force drift to overtake selection by sheer stochastic
    sampling error.

    Quoted message said:


    In short, there are a wide range of states that our
    biological natures can attain, and they very much depend
    on contingent effects of the developmental environments,
    social, and ecological. It is not a widely accepted
    viewpoint, I know.

    Ragland: Your argument is complex and subtle and for that
    reason you're right it is not a widely accepted viewpoint.
    At first glance it appears you confirm my statement, "My
    "guess" is most of you are neither hardliners or the
    opposite where there is no aspect of our biology which
    isn't somewhat biologically determined." But you preface
    that with, "Assuming you meant aspect of our *psychology*
    I am a strong determinist - nothing we do or say is not
    strongly biased by our biological nature. But biological
    natures have a norm of reaction and a normal distribution
    (or a skewed one, but that is evidence in a largish
    population of some selective pressure)."

    This merely means that, no matter how rigidly we are
    determined by biology, biology is capable of attaining a
    range of states rather than a single one, given its
    sensitivities to boundary conditions.

    Quoted message said:


    John Wilkins: The essay you quoted reiterates the standard
    fare - that socialists cannot be biological determinists
    (why not? Perhaps Kropotkin was right and we are
    biological cooperators), that determinism is social
    Darwinism (there never was such a thing but once; all the
    rest is just labelling); etc. But the evidence is mounting
    and we just have to deal with it.

    Ragland: I detect here you are not a "rigid" biological
    determinist. Do you see biological cooperation as being on
    par with biological competition? Do you see biological
    cooperation as being more a feature of our evolution than
    biological competition? Social Darwinism seemed to be born
    out in human experience with Nazi Germany. One can dismiss
    this as an abnormality but I think that is dangerous. My
    own view is humans are more competitive than cooperative.

    This is a usual problem people have mapping genetic "self-
    interest" and "competition" with human behavioral self-
    interest and competition. The former is metaphorical - the
    use of social terms to illustrate the expected dynamics of
    genes. In effect, selfish gene talk is like this: "imagine
    genes are a group of really amoral self-interested agents,
    how would they play out in practice? Genes are like that."
    But that does not mean genetic "selfishness" cannot result
    in actual human cooperation. Indeed, that is what the point
    of the following is:

    Axelrod, Robert. 1990. The evolution of cooperation, Penguin
    politics. London.

    In short, gene selfishness can generate agent altruism as an
    evolutionarily stable strategy, in the right conditions.

    Quoted message said:


    John Wilkins: My view on genetic engineering is that, like
    any technology, it all depends on the goals, the
    sensitivity of the practioners to evidence, and the
    potential cost of failure. We build bridges that way - we
    should employ genetic therapies the same way. Eliminate
    Tay-Sachs? Go for it. Engineer thin-hipped women with
    classic faces? Not on your life

    Ragland: I agree with you. But if the industry remains
    unregulated many unethical and potentially dangerous
    applications are bound to occur.

    I have a political objection to formal regulation - it leads
    to a situation where those regulating have vested interests
    in the continuation of regulation, and this skews the
    objectivity of their judgement. This is not fatal, but it
    means you must counterbalance this tendency, and you cannot
    always do that safely.

    That said, I'll snip the remainder.

    ...

    --
    Dr John Wilkins [email hidden]
    wilkins.id.auwilkins.id.au "Men mark it when they hit, but do not
    mark it when they miss"
    - Francis
    Bacon

  8. Michael Ragland said:

    Ragland: Okay. But at one time aggression, xenophobia,
    etc. were apart of selection. If they are pleiotropically
    linked to genes under selection why wouldn't they
    theoretically still be under selection? For example,
    assuming Darwinian evolution was given enough time
    wouldn't it be possible aggression would be under
    selection and gradually it would be "removed" since it was
    no longer adaptive?

    Wilkins: In environments where aggression is selectively
    disadvantaged. But the majority of humans today, whether
    they live in small tribal arrangements or large
    cosmopolitan environments, live in situations where
    aggression is not so disadvantaged. This sets up a
    situation where group selection may be invoked - those
    groups that are less aggressive may in fact be overrun by
    aggressive groups. It's happened before.

    Ragland: Well I disagree with you Mr. Wilkins. I think we
    currently do live in a cultural environment (scientific
    and technological civilization) where aggression is
    selectively disadvantaged. What do you base your
    statement, "But the majority of humans today, whether they
    live in small tribal arrangments or large cosmopolitan
    environments, live in situations where aggression is not
    so disadvantaged"? I'm glad you spoke your mind here
    because I think it is the majority opinion and that a
    certain number of people on sci.bio.evolution think I'm a
    "friutcake". Do you think as a "species" aggression is not
    selectively disadvantaged?

    Michael, I have no opinion on your dried fruit content. But
    I look about and see that we are relatively as violent as
    chimps; perhaps a bit less. In societies that live in tribal
    groups, most aggression within the group is rigidly
    controlled, while outgroup aggression is generally (but not
    always) ritual. Even so, tribal murder rates are greater
    than urban aggression rates. That said, most people lived in
    a village rather than a city until relatively recently. So I
    think there has been no selection yet against aggression.

    A large part of the problem is that we who grew up after
    WWII, and before the current troubles, seem to think that
    the world is generally a nice place except in those horrid
    places; in fact the world is as violent now as it has ever
    been (one reason why reported violence is on the increase
    is, IMO, because the criteria for reportage is more
    senstivie. In my dad's day, if someone insulted you, nobody
    blinked if you decked him. It certainly never got to the
    police), and the 50s and 60s were the exception - in a very
    few places (ask a Congolese about that time).

    Quoted message said:


    Technically, you are correct since Darwinian evolution
    hasn't moved in the evolutionary direction where it is
    selectively disadvantaged. But I don't think you meant it
    in a purely technical sense and your additional statement
    confirms that.

    You further state due to aggression not being selectively
    disadvantaged (I'm stating in the purely technical sense)
    "This sets up a situation where group selection may be
    invoked - those groups that are less aggressive may in
    fact be overrun by aggressive groups. It's happened
    before." Yes, it happenned in Nazi Germany among
    innumerable other examples. Is group selection selectively
    disadvantaged? Are the majority of humans today, whether
    they live in small tribal arrangements or large
    cosmopolitan environments, live in situations where group
    selection is not so disadvantaged?

    Group selection is weak except in some cases where the
    individual selection is weak relative to the selected
    characters and the groups are highly cohesive. As it
    happens, small tribal groups are indeed genetically highly
    cohesive and the individual survival rates depend a lot on
    how one fits into one's tribe. Nazi Germany was *not* a case
    of group selection, although genetic frequencies were
    massively affected by
    it. It was not group selection because there was no
    iteration of groups outsurviving other groups (Germany
    was not a genetic group as such).

    Quoted message said:


    Not only has it happenned before but it is still occurring
    more or less today Mr. Wilkins. That is group selection.
    If you are talking about more extreme examples such as
    African American slavery or Nazi Germany yes something
    along those lines could happen again. (read my sig
    sometime) It would take different forms but it could
    happen again. Do you consider the possibilities of such
    group selection to be selectively advantageous in
    Darwinian terms?

    In the sense that what survives survives, and what
    reproduces reproduces, then yes, group selection is
    "selectively advantageous" by definition. It is not morally
    preferential, but it is selectively advantaged.

    Quoted message said:


    Or is it possible what has been selectively advantageous
    in Darwinian evolution is not selectively advantageous in
    terms of cultural evolution and the scientitific and
    technological advances which are the 21st century?

    Almost certainly true. Cultural evolution is constrained by,
    but not tightly determined by, the genetic and biological
    selection going on underneath it. I like to think of
    cultural evolution being a laminar flow on the surface, and
    biological evolution being a deep current - sometimes they
    interact, but mostly they are decoupled.

    Quoted message said:


    Ragland: I agree with you. But if the industry remains
    unregulated many unethical and potentially dangerous
    applications are bound to occur.

    They are bound to occur anyway. The question is what way to
    bet will minimise it. And we won't know if we bet correctly
    until the cards are turned over, so to speak.

    Quoted message said:


    Wilkins: I have a political objection to formal regulation
    - it leads to a situation where those regulating have
    vested interests in the continuation of regulation, and
    this skews the objectivity of their judgement. This is not
    fatal, but it means you must counterbalance this tendency,
    and you cannot always do that safely.

    Ragland: Even without formal regulation there are already
    strongly vested interests which skew "objectivity" of
    researcher's judgment. Pharmaceutical companies,
    government, military. The situation has been likened to
    the military industrial complex but a series of relations
    between academia, government, pharamaceuticals, military,
    etc. And it does effect objectivity. There is no such
    thing as pure objectivity of many researchers. If a
    company or the government is paying so much money to
    research this or that then that is what will be
    researched. There is an agenda. I grant you there would be
    and is more independence than if there was formal
    regulation but at some point (I'm not saying necessarily
    now) there will need to be formal regulation.

    John Wilkins: That said, I'll snip the remainder.

    A professor asked a student, "If you had a choice between
    the oppressed and the oppressor which would you choose."
    The student replied, "Neither". The Professor shook his
    head and stated, "You don't have a choice." The student
    paused and said, "The oppressed".

    --
    Dr John Wilkins [email hidden]
    wilkins.id.auwilkins.id.au "Men mark it when they hit, but do not
    mark it when they miss"
    - Francis
    Bacon

  9. Dkomo:

    Well I appreciate your response although it did seem a
    little "irked" to the idea I suggested. I already
    mentioned in my post my position was in the minority. You
    make what appears on the surface a good argument. There
    are something like 6 billion people on earth and although
    there is extreme violence in the world, authoritarian
    regimes, etc. only a tiny fraction of those 6 billion fall
    victim to violent death. Your logic seems impeccable but I
    think what you are possibly ignoring here is we live in a
    world of high science and technology and governments and
    especially terrorists can potentially utilize that science
    and technology for destructive purposes. This is in the
    short term I'm speaking. There are more long term threats
    to the survival of our species which take the form of
    continued environmental destruction of the earth i.e.
    global warming, etc.

    With high science and technology IT DOESN'T MATTER that the
    vast majority of 6 billion people don't fall prey to violent
    crime and/or death. There are two primary ways that I see
    where the human race could become extinct i.e. destroy
    itself. One is nuclear weapons. Admittedly, this is unlikely
    but still a possibility. Enough nuclear weapons would have
    to be detonated to create the so-called "nuclear winter"
    effect. Some still dispute this theory but for the sake of
    argument lets say it is valid. Countries do have nuclear
    weapons and more are likely too. Some of those countries are
    politically and socially unstable. We witnessed the nuclear
    standoff between India and Pakistan. I don't think anybody
    actually thought a nuclear exchange would occur between the
    two countries but the fact remains India and Pakistan have
    had difficulties with each other for many decades..currently
    over Kashmir. North Korea supposedly has a nuclear weapons
    program and is thought to have at least one nuclear warhead
    which could reach to Alaska. Iran is thought to have its own
    nuclear program. All of this is very dangerous. And in
    politics it only takes a certain chain of events to set off
    unexpected and disastrous consequences (look at Iraq) and
    theoretically this could lead to an international nuclear
    exhange someday. All I'm saying is it is a possibility
    however slim it is. Look at one country (Nazi Germany) could
    wreak utter havoc on the world. But Nazi Germany is just one
    country. How many countries in the world are there and what
    are the chances one country could primarily wreak such havoc
    and death?

    The second possibility the human race could end up
    destroyed is through a genetically engineered virus either
    escaped accidentally or created by terrorists. You're a
    geneticist so you should also know this is theoretically a
    possibility. If it escaped accidentally I would hesitate to
    say this was a result of aggression but merely an
    accident..but why are scientifists going around creating
    genetically engineered viruses which wipe out entire
    populations? Ah, to see if it is possible and to point to
    the threat it represents to humans.

    If a deadly genetically engineered virus which was highly
    contagious spread globally through travef and if there was
    no antidote or medical cure it would be an international
    disaster. There would soon be hundreds of thousands of
    corpses everywhere and the emergency medical personnel,
    despite precautions, would be at great risk of falling ill
    and dying as well. Look at the virus like Ebola which is
    extremely contagious and deadly. Imagine a genetically
    engineered virus like that except much worse in terms of
    being contained. This isn't science fiction. The CDC and
    other international agencies work around the clock to
    monitor the epidemiology of these diseases.

    The long term effects of continued Darwinian evolution pose
    a severe long term threat to the well being of planet earth.
    Overpopulation, excessive development, industrial emissions,
    wars, famine, diseases, global warming, acid rain. Just
    because you and I don' really feel the direct effects of
    global warming doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because
    you and I are relatively healthy doesn't mean we couldn't be
    stricken with a genetically engineered virus. Just because
    you and I have never experienced a nuclear blast doesn't
    mean we couldn't experience the direct fall out of one. Just
    because we live in clean houses and are clean ourselves
    doesn't mean many water bodies aren't choked with pollution.
    They often say one has to be personally effected by
    something before they take an interest in it. Well I haven't
    been personally effected by any of these things but I know I
    don't have to be personally effected in order for the
    possibility of these things to happen to me. They may never
    happen. On the other hand nothing is impossible and in 5
    years or 10 or 15 one or more of these things could
    personally effect me. No, I'm not going to mail order my gas
    mask and iodine tablets and build a bunker. I figure when it
    is my time to go I will go and besides I don't think there
    is really anything which can protect you from these threats
    possibly personally effecting you.

    I think your flippant dismissiveness of my question reflects
    poorly on you as well as your snipping and not responding to
    the rest of my post. I know I have come across in the group
    as a doomsdayer but I have also stressed I believe there is
    hope. You never answered the original question I posed i.e.
    whether Darwinian evolution (assuming there is no genetic
    intervention) will result in the destruction of [censored]
    Sapiens. Your answer appear to be "no" but this was based on
    the flimsy argument that because the vast majority of 6
    billion don't fall prey to violent death the idea of the
    human species destroying itself was absurd. I explained to
    you due to advances in science and technology it is now
    possible to murder huge numbers of people...much more than
    in WWII. Whether or not that science and technology will be
    utilized remains to be seen.

    Michael Ragland

    A professor asked a student, "If you had a choice between
    the oppressed and the oppressor which would you choose." The
    student replied, "Neither". The Professor shook his head and
    stated, "You don't have a choice." The student paused and
    said, "The oppressed".

  10. You sound angry-frustrated dkomo🙂

    Michael Ragland

    Michael Ragland wrote: I disagree with Mr. Buck who is not a
    scientist but I like his spirit. (his brief article is
    below) He is a socialist and of course if one does subscribe
    to biological determinism then the idea of socialism is
    shattered. But its interesting to note there appears to be
    two camps among followers of biological determinism. The
    first camp sees nothing wrong with biological determinism.
    It's a part of our Darwinian nature and should be fully
    expressed rather than attempted to be thwarted or
    suppressed. The second camp, among which I include myself,
    acknowledges biological determinism but don't think it
    should be fully expressed but don't believe ultimately it
    can be thwarted. This camp seems to be in the minority.
    There is a third camp which takes the middle road which
    neither believes our Darwinian nature should be fully
    expressed but that it can be sufficiently controlled. This
    is probably the majority camp. That is why I advocate
    genetic engineering of people. Because I do agree generally
    with people like Pinker. I think if Darwinian evolution is
    permitted to continue it will result in our destruction as a
    species. I think that's an absurd assertion. Add up all the
    people who die or are wounded from acts of violence every
    year and compare that number to the total of all human
    beings -- 6 billion or so. What percentage do you think you
    will get? The percentage will obviously vary from year to
    year, but what do you think the average is? Let's see.
    Suppose that 1 million people died or were wounded in 2003
    from all acts of violence. That's a number that is probably
    way high, but let's err on the side of overestimation. 1
    million people is 0.017% of 6 billion people. Point is,
    although acts of violence like civil wars, terrorism,
    homicide, executions, and violent repression by
    authoritarian regimes are on the news every day and grab our
    attention, only a very small percentage of the total human
    population falls victim to it. In fact, the vast majority of
    human beings neither commit violence on other human beings
    nor are victims. We control our violent aggressions quite
    successfully as a species. Aggression is a salient component
    of Darwinian evolution. Will anybody seriously question
    that. Are you counting human cultural evolution as
    "Darwinian evolution"? If so, not just aggression is a
    salient component of it. So is cooperation, morality, love,
    government, religion and all the other parts of human
    culture that hold societies together. And these components
    taken together completely swamp aggression, as I pointed out
    above.     Can anybody seriously question the continuation
    of extreme violence around the world which is not primarily
    culturally fueled but a part of our biology. I realize some
    would take issue with this and state such violence was
    primarily culturally fueled but I don't believe that. What
    is this either/or [censored]? Aggression is both part of our
    biology and culturally fueled. I'd welcome a response from
    the likes of Wilkins, Atmar, Moran, Felsenstein, Dr. Hayes,
    etc. whether they consider the continuation of Darwinian
    evolution (assuming there is no genetic intervention) to
    ultimately lead to the destruction of our species. By all
    means, query the experts. [snip the rest]                 --
    [email hidden]

    A professor asked a student, "If you had a choice between
    the oppressed and the oppressor which would you choose." The
    student replied, "Neither". The Professor shook his head and
    stated, "You don't have a choice." The student paused and
    said, "The oppressed".

  11. Michael Ragland <[email hidden]> wrote:

    I disagree with Mr. Buck who is not a scientist but I like
    his spirit. (his brief article is below) He is a socialist
    and of course if one does subscribe to biological
    determinism then the idea of socialism is shattered. But its
    interesting to note there appears to be two camps among
    followers of biological determinism. The first camp sees
    nothing wrong with biological determinism. It's a part of
    our Darwinian nature and should be fully expressed rather
    than attempted to be thwarted or suppressed. The second
    camp, among which I include myself, acknowledges biological
    determinism but don't think it should be fully expressed but
    don't believe ultimately it can be thwarted. This camp seems
    to be in the minority. There is a third camp which takes the
    middle road which neither believes our Darwinian nature
    should be fully expressed but that it can be sufficiently
    controlled. This is probably the majority camp. That is why
    I advocate genetic engineering of people. Because I do agree
    generally with people like Pinker. I think if Darwinian
    evolution is permitted to continue it will result in our
    destruction as a species. Aggression is a salient component
    of Darwinian evolution. Will anybody seriously question
    that. Can anybody seriously question the continuation of
    extreme violence around the world which is not primarily
    culturally fueled but a part of our biology. I realize some
    would take issue with this and state such violence was
    primarily culturally fueled but I don't believe that. I'd
    welcome a response from the likes of Wilkins, Atmar, Moran,
    Felsenstein, Dr. Hayes, etc. whether they consider the
    continuation of Darwinian evolution (assuming there is no
    genetic intervention) to ultimately lead to the destruction
    of our species. I know nobody has a direct crystal ball to
    the future but I'm requesting a projection based on our
    evolutionary history up to the present and projecting into
    the future. Based on what Wilkins has recently stated
    regarding NS it would certainly seem that is a possibility.
    But I'm hopefully looking for more than just a possibility.
    I guess I'm asking for your personal opinion as opposed to
    your scientific expertise. The may not be warranted in this
    group but I'd sure be curious.

    John Wilkins: You aren't supposed to *ask* me for my opinion
    - I might tell you. Oh, very well

    Ragland: Sorry, guess it was inappropriate to ask you. I
    just asked people who I thought were intelligent...some of
    whom I don't even agree with some times.

    John Wilkins: .. My view is that selection will not drive an
    entire widespread species like ours to anything; adaptation
    is local to the deme or metapopulation.

    Ragland: Forgive my ignorance. What is a "deme" and a
    "metapopulation". I get the impression a "metapopulation" is
    a large sized population.

    John Wilkins: *Prior* adaptations may just result in our
    extinction - I'm thinking of our adaptations that lead us to
    xenophobia and violence. But that is not selection, except
    in the sense that these adaptations are pleiotropically
    linked to genes that *are* under selection.

    Ragland: Okay. But at one time aggression, xenophobia, etc.
    were apart of selection. If they are pleiotropically linked
    to genes under selection why wouldn't they theoretically
    still be under selection? For example, assuming Darwinian
    evolution was given enough time wouldn't it be possible
    aggression would be under selection and gradually it would
    be "removed" since it was no longer adaptive?

    Ragland: I'm also curious where you all fall on the
    biological determinism debate. My "guess" is most of you are
    neither hardliners or the opposite where there is no aspect
    of our biology which isn't somewhat biologically determined.
    The question is how determined and under what circumstances
    it can internationally violently flare up.

    John Wilkins: Assuming you meant aspect of our *psychology*
    I am a strong determinist
    - nothing we do or say is not strongly biased by our
    biological nature. But biological natures have a norm of
    reaction and a normal distribution (or a skewed one, but
    that is evidence in a largish population of some selective
    pressure).

    Ragland: What is largish. I'm intelligent but not well read.

    In short, there are a wide range of states that our
    biological natures can attain, and they very much depend on
    contingent effects of the developmental environments,
    social, and ecological. It is not a widely accepted
    viewpoint, I know.

    Ragland: Your argument is complex and subtle and for that
    reason you're right it is not a widely accepted viewpoint.
    At first glance it appears you confirm my statement, "My
    "guess" is most of you are neither hardliners or the
    opposite where there is no aspect of our biology which isn't
    somewhat biologically determined." But you preface that
    with, "Assuming you meant aspect of our *psychology* I am a
    strong determinist - nothing we do or say is not strongly
    biased by our biological nature. But biological natures have
    a norm of reaction and a normal distribution (or a skewed
    one, but that is evidence in a largish population of some
    selective pressure)."

    John Wilkins: The essay you quoted reiterates the standard
    fare - that socialists cannot be biological determinists
    (why not? Perhaps Kropotkin was right and we are biological
    cooperators), that determinism is social Darwinism (there
    never was such a thing but once; all the rest is just
    labelling); etc. But the evidence is mounting and we just
    have to deal with it.

    Ragland: I detect here you are not a "rigid" biological
    determinist. Do you see biological cooperation as being on
    par with biological competition? Do you see biological
    cooperation as being more a feature of our evolution than
    biological competition? Social Darwinism seemed to be born
    out in human experience with Nazi Germany. One can dismiss
    this as an abnormality but I think that is dangerous. My own
    view is humans are more competitive than cooperative.

    John Wilkins: My view on genetic engineering is that, like
    any technology, it all depends on the goals, the
    sensitivity of the practioners to evidence, and the
    potential cost of failure. We build bridges that way - we
    should employ genetic therapies the same way. Eliminate Tay-
    Sachs? Go for it. Engineer thin-hipped women with classic
    faces? Not on your life

    Ragland: I agree with you. But if the industry remains
    unregulated many unethical and potentially dangerous
    applications are bound to occur.

    John Wilkins: .. the unintended outcomes of that sort of
    employment of technology on a complex developmental program
    will have major side-effects (what if they are subject to
    breast cancer, or are developmentally delayed?). Somewhere
    in between, experience will teach us what is worthwhile and
    what is not.

    Ragland: Yes.

    John Wilkins: So far as eugenics is concerned, the worry is
    not that the techniques will not work, for they will if we
    apply good science (after all, they have for thousands of
    years). The worry is who gets to make those decisions, and
    what they and we must pay when it fails, if it does.

    Ragland: Well I think selective breeding is a bit different
    from genetic engineering. I think genetic engineering offers
    many more opportunities and its not merely breeding animals.
    I don't see it failing if its based on "good science". But
    there are those who will argue certain genetic engineering
    applications are "good science" when in fact they are "bad
    science". If it fails there will be consequences and I think
    to some extent this is inevitable. As you states through
    trial and error we will discover what has worth and what
    doesn't. Assuming genetic engineering techniques and
    applications were currently advanced I would have no faith
    whatsoever in the present American political-corporate
    system to regulate the industry. In fact, I would think some
    kind of other political system would have to replace it.
    Indeed, I anticipate eventually Congress and the President
    (whoever he is) will at some point outlaw genetic
    engineering...at least certain applications of it. A gag
    will be put on research.

    So the current American political-corporate system needs to
    slowly deteriorate and degenerate and despite the ban on
    many types of genetic engineering some scientists will still
    proceed in other countries where it is permitted. Even if it
    is not permitted anywhere it won't be stopped.

    As I stated in a previous post of mine if there is money to
    be made by these genetic engineering applications will occur
    and nothing will stop them..not the Catholic Church, society
    or whatever else. It's likely at first the rich will have
    access to these genetic engineering applications and after a
    relatively long period of time it will eventually trickle
    down to the middle class and poor.

    A long time ago there was a thread concerned about what
    would happen if only the rich had access to these genetic
    engineering applications while the rest of society was left
    un-genetically engineered. The fear was the rich would get
    all the benefits and being superior specimens while the rest
    of society was left to languish with common genetic
    diseases, low intelligence, aggression, etc. I expressed
    this was unlikely because of the extreme social and
    political polarization which would result. It would make
    much more sense to offer genetic engineering to all classes
    of society to create as even a playing field as possible.
    But initially at least it does seem the rich will have
    access to it.

    Some types of genetic engineering will be allowed and others
    won't be but there ultimately will need to be a governmental
    regulatory body. When it comes to eliminating certain
    diseases through genetic engineering and this has proven
    safe one would like to think the American corporate-
    political system would set up a regulatory body for genetic
    engineering and that any person with such a disease could
    free of charge receive this genetic engineering if "they
    wanted it"

    There also needs to be a national regulatory body regarding
    genetic engineering research. What is permitted and what is
    not. These are issues in the future which will have to be
    addressed. To the best of my knowledge there is no specific
    genetic engineering regulatory body or a national regulatory
    body regarding genetic engineering research. I suppose the
    field is still too embryonic. There use to be a bioethics
    advisory council to the President and I believe there still
    is but they are a joke.

    But for the time being Congress is making these kinds of
    decisions. In France a scientists did gene therapy on 11
    boys who had "bubble boy" disease. In two of the boys the
    gene therapy cured their immunodeficiency disorder but also
    activated caner genes. The two boys were treated and the
    caner went into remission and they are doing fine but
    Congress decided to suspend 27 gene therapy research
    protocols.

    If there has been a national regulatory body for
    genetic engineering research that outcome may not have
    been the same.

    Michael Ragland

    A professor asked a student, "If you had a choice between
    the oppressed and the oppressor which would you choose." The
    student replied, "Neither". The Professor shook his head and
    stated, "You don't have a choice." The student paused and
    said, "The oppressed".

  12. Assuming we continue to embrace design, the main possibilities for life
    not consisting (in large part) of descendants of the human race in the
    future would then look something like:
    * Invasion by aliens too advanced to bother assimilating us;
    * Failure to get off the planet before we run out of
    resources   (or the sun explodes);
    * Getting wiped out by our creations;       * Getting wiped
    out by intelligent machines;       * Getting wiped out by
    nanotechnology;
    * Getting wiped out competitors/predators;
    * Getting wiped out pathogens; The only one of these that I
    reckon might constite a serious long-term risk is the
    first one.

    Tim Tyler

    I agree with you Tim but your projecting way into the future
    when we have embraced design and the main possibilities for
    life not consisting (in large part) of descendants of the
    human race in the future. I suppose you consider whether
    [censored] Sapiens will destroy themselves is a rather moot
    question but I believe it is this period of our evolution
    when there is the greatest risk of doing so. My original
    question was Darwinian evolution=Armageddon (permanent
    extinction no descendants to be less biblical) if there is
    no genetic intervention. You haven't exactly answered that.
    I gather you believe we will design ourselves and I would
    take this as genetic intervention in Darwinian evolution.
    Perhaps its a given to you we will design ourselves but time
    is running out in the hourglass. There is a race between
    Darwinian evolution (or are Darwinian nature and certain
    features which have been selected in the past such as
    aggression) and scientific and technological advances in
    genetics and genetic engineering and applying those advances
    to humans on a widespead scale. My fear is before those
    advances and their widespead application can occur the
    international political, social and economic situation will
    worsen to the point where there will be more nuclear war and
    the possibility of bio-warfare or mishaps. Depending on the
    severity of these "possible" events it could plunge much of
    the world into a sort of Dark Ages (much more dark than
    currently). It could take many decades to even begin to come
    out of if...assuming we survived as a species. Even without
    nuclear weapons or bio-warfare societies could become more
    totalitarian and belligerant. Those are my concerns, not
    after we have signifigantly embraced design. You know a
    movie was made called "Planet of the Apes" but it just as
    well could have been "Planet of the Humans".

    Even though you and I are products of Darwinian evolution
    and possess traits such as aggression which were selected in
    our evolutionary past I believe it is possible for [censored]
    Sapiens to begin to make the transition to a designed
    species. That is because one of the traits of Darwinian
    evolution is intelligence and if we use that intelligence in
    science I believe we can gradually design ourselves.
    Ultimately this will result in few descendants of [censored]
    Sapiens and a new species (singular or plural) will be
    created although the definition and meaning of species has
    been contested in this context.

    Wilkins has pointed out who will make these decisions in
    designing ourselves. It's likely there will be many more
    genetic engineering applications before the master genes for
    aggression have been discovered and there are genetic
    engineering techniques to modify/remove aggression. One
    possibility is to employ genetic engineering techniques
    towards "racial ends". How this would exactly be done I
    don't have a clue but it is a possibility. What if a
    country/government favored blond hair and blue eyes
    (Germany, Britain, etc.) and encouraged or forced its
    citizens to be genetically engineered to have blond hair and
    blue eyes? It sounds absurd but then again Nazi Germany's
    ideas were absurd. The difference here is where Nazi Germany
    attempted this on a very limited basis with selective
    breeding of humans (which was not guaranteed or precise and
    the results were negligible) with genetic engineering the
    ratio of success would be much higher and arguably
    foolproof. Of course, other ethnic groups would have to be
    marginalized and disenfranchised. I personally would not
    want to live in a society like that. There has been enough
    oppression over the centuries of various ethnic groups.

    The point is that designing ourselves as a species need not
    really lead to a genetic intervention in Darwinian
    evolution. Merely eliminating genetic diseases or selecting
    traits such as eye color and hair color aren't going to
    change our basic Darwinian nature which is based on
    aggression, xenophobia, territoriality, competition, etc.
    There is a danger we will not be socially and politically
    advanced enough and we will use genetic engineering for
    reactionary purposes and goals (some of the same purposes
    and goals which have been pursued for centuries) but this
    time in a bright new package called genetic engineering.

    There is also the fear of a "genetic underclass". Those
    individuals who suffer from various genetic diseases (from
    which there is no cure) and heavily discriminated by
    insurance companies. What happens when a person's DNA
    becomes common property and that information is either found
    out or sold to insurance companies, employers, etc.? There
    needs to be a specific law that genetic discrimination is
    outlawed but that won't totally protect DNA privacy or still
    prevent employers from finding out about such information.
    And arguably the powerful insurance lobby would fight tooth
    and nail to prevent any genetic discrimination law which
    prevented them from outrageous premiums or denying coverage
    for any genetic disease or predisposition they saw fit.

    In another post I mentioned there is not even a national
    genetic engineering regulatory body or a national genetic
    engineering research regulatory body. I mentioned in France
    a scientist treated 11 boys with immunodefinciency disorder
    with gene therapy. The gene therapy was successful in all 11
    cases but in two of the boys the gene therapy also activated
    caner genes. The cancer was treated and it is in remission.
    U.S. Congress decided to suspend 27 gene therapy
    experiments. That's who makes these decision...Congress.
    There is a bioethics "advisory" commission to the President
    but it is stacked with his appointees.

    Michael Ragland

    A professor asked a student, "If you had a choice between
    the oppressed and the oppressor which would you choose." The
    student replied, "Neither". The Professor shook his head and
    stated, "You don't have a choice." The student paused and
    said, "The oppressed".

  13. << * Invasion by aliens too advanced to bother
    assimilating us; >>

    This comment may tie in with what Ragland is saying too. And
    its fun to think about anyway.

    IF I am correct and violence is mostly a male fear response,
    and its excess is treatable by therapies that resolve the
    inner conflicts causing the excess violent reaction:

    THEN advanced aliens will
    1. be built on the same model
    2. have advanced enough to resolve their repressed anger too
    thus being reasonably kind and non violent to even us
    lowly creatures.

    IF life is a response to an energy cycle that sets up a
    basic food in/waste out pattern wherever it starts - then
    aliens will be based on the same model, and advanced aliens
    will have resolved their repressed inner conflicts and not
    be the danger all of us (who still are plagued by those
    conflicts), now fear.

  14. Michael Ragland <[email hidden]> wrote or quoted:

    Quoted message said:

    I agree with you Tim but your projecting way into the
    future when we have embraced design and the main
    possibilities for life not consisting (in large part) of
    descendants of the human race in the future. I suppose you
    consider whether [censored] Sapiens will destroy themselves is a
    rather moot question but I believe it is this period of
    our evolution when there is the greatest risk of doing so.

    I agree. Organisms are at their most vulerable when they are
    young - and our species is still fairly near start of its
    development - and we could - in principle - still be wiped
    out by a big enough asteroid.

    Quoted message said:

    My original question was Darwinian evolution=Armageddon
    (permanent extinction no descendants to be less biblical)
    if there is no genetic intervention. You haven't exactly
    answered that.

    Since I don't see much chance of it happening, it seems
    rather hypothetical.

    However, I suppose it is at least possible that humans could
    resist designing themselves up to the point where machines
    formed 99% of the planetary "biomass" - and outflanked
    humans in every way. At that point, the human element would
    be pretty redundant and dispensible - and might be in danger
    of disappearing.

    ...but seriously, I don't think moral codes or prohibition
    will be in the least effective at preventing engineered
    humans from arising. A war on genetic engineered humans
    would be about as effective as the war on drugs has been.

    In this respect, stuff like Star Trek seems ridiculously
    unrealistic - massive machine advance - but apparently
    practically no progress with engineering humans - and indeed
    a deliberate failure to get to grips with the subject.
    --
    __________
    |im |yler timtyler.orgtimtyler.org [email hidden] Remove
    lock to reply.

  15. [email hidden] (Michael Ragland) wrote in
    :"]news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Jim Menegay: John has recently directed me to the writings
    of Susan Oyama and the "Developmental Systems Theory"
    school. You, Michael, may also be interested. This
    movement (primarily one of the political left) rejects the
    conventional dichotomy between nature and nurture. It
    endorses both biological AND cultural determinism - we
    are, say, 90% determined by each - that is, many things
    are jointly determined.

    Response: Well my own view is strongly biologically
    deterministic. I also think the dichotomy between nature
    and nurture is false but instead of believing its is both
    biological and cultural I see nature/nurture as being ONE
    biological system.

    Jim Mengay: I would recommend her book "Evolution's Eye: A
    Systems View of the Biology-Culture Divide". It has a good
    chapter on aggression, which, to my mind, hits the nail
    squarely on the head. And I'm not even a leftist.

    Response: Thanks. You've peaked my curiousity. I think I
    will at least read that chapter and give my feedback on
    this newsgroup.

    Well I admit I have on occasion thought that your curiosity
    was out of balance with your erudition (I suffer from the
    same problem), but I would be unhappy to learn that your
    curiosity had actually peaked. Hopefully your curiosity has
    just been piqued :-)

    Another book on this subject is "The Dependent Gene", which
    also discusses the deep interaction between "nature" and
    "nurture" in development.

    Yours,

    Bill Morse

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