Saturated Fat

Chad C. said:

Any theories as to why saturated fat might be unhealthy
as well?

Uh, it raises serum cholesterol?

-Jay

"Jay Tanzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chad C. said:

Any theories as to why saturated fat might be unhealthy
as well?

Uh, it raises serum cholesterol?

-Jay

And serum cholesterol is the problem and not a correlation?

-Chad

Chad C. said:

"Jay Tanzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2k1668F14tc4oU2@uni-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Chad C. said:

Any theories as to why saturated fat might be unhealthy
as well?

Uh, it raises serum cholesterol?

-Jay

And serum cholesterol is the problem and not a
correlation?

It's atherogenic.

-Jay

"Chad C." <[email hidden]> pí¹e v diskusním pøíspìvku
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Where is well-done research showing that saturated fat
per se is

unhealthy?

Quoted message said:

I'd really like to see it to believe it, it's such
conventional wisdom

I

Quoted message said:

know but that's not enough for me. Any theories as to why
saturated

fat

Quoted message said:

might be unhealthy as well?

As for theories, it gets stored into liver cells with LDL
receptors and slows down LDL removal from blood.

Interesting is that it applies to medium chain saturated fat
acids only. Longer chain (stearic acid) are considered
benefical w.r.t. LDL levels.

Another theory says that it destroys pancreatic cells when
BG is high.

In practice, it is worth mentioning that. e.g. lard
contains in fact only 40% of fat as saturated, and only
25% is of "dangerous" kind. Rest of fats in lard is
"healthy". "Healthy" olive oil contains 11% of "dangerous"
saturated fat. If you consider that on high-carb diet most
carbohydrates get converted to fat in body, very possibly
into saturated one, I would not be surprised if "lard"
diet in fact reduced actual medium chain saturated fat
levels in body....

Mirek

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:13:05 -0700, "Chad C." <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Where is well-done research showing that saturated fat per
se is unhealthy? I'd really like to see it to believe it,
it's such conventional wisdom I know but that's not enough
for me. Any theories as to why saturated fat might be
unhealthy as well?

Thanks folks,

-Chad

I think the best diet advice is to look at populations that
are noted for their longevity and follow their model.
Having said that, however, it is interesting to see that
not 100 years ago people cooked with lard, drink full fat
milk, used cream in their coffee, ate bacon and eggs, etc
and heart disease wasn't anywhere near as common as it is
today. Obviously there's a lot to be said for an active
lifestyle as well.

Regards.

Rob

"Robert Ruddy" <[email hidden]> píse v diskusním príspevku
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chad C. said:

Where is well-done research showing that saturated fat
per se is

unhealthy?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd really like to see it to believe it, it's such
conventional

wisdom I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

know but that's not enough for me. Any theories as to why
saturated

fat

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

might be unhealthy as well?

Thanks folks,

-Chad

I think the best diet advice is to look at populations
that are noted for their longevity and follow their model.

Well, but you have to choose very wisely to prove
anything 🙂

You could end with indians eating low-fat vegetarian diet
and having high incidence of coronary diseasy and spanish
eating more saturated fat while lowering their numbers...

Quoted message said:

Having said that, however, it is interesting to see that
not 100 years ago people cooked with lard, drink full fat
milk, used cream in their coffee, ate bacon and eggs, etc
and heart disease wasn't anywhere near as common as it is

Nice theory, but obvious answer to this is that people died
much sooner because of other diseases, so that heart disease
did not have time to develop....

Mirek

Jay Tanzman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Chad C. said:

Any theories as to why saturated fat might be unhealthy
as well?

Uh, it raises serum cholesterol?

-Jay

WRONG!

Dr William Castelli, director of the famous Framingham
Heart Study that is always cited as proof of the
dangers of saturated fat and cholesterol eventualy had
to conclude:

"In Framingham, Mass., the more saturated fat one ate, the
more cholesterol one ate, the more calories one ate, the
lower the person's serum cholesterol ... we found that the
people who ate the most cholesterol, ate the most saturated
fat, [and] ate the most calories, weighed the least and were
the most physically active."

Of course this admission came years too late and the
steam roller that is the diet-heart/anti cholesterol
anti saturated fat campeign was already at full speed.
Gotta love modern mainstream medical research.

"Mirek Fidler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Robert Ruddy" <[email hidden]> píse v diskusním
príspevku
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chad C. said:

Where is well-done research showing that saturated fat
per se is

unhealthy?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd really like to see it to believe it, it's such
conventional

wisdom I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

know but that's not enough for me. Any theories as to
why saturated

fat

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

might be unhealthy as well?

Thanks folks,

-Chad

I think the best diet advice is to look at populations
that are noted for their longevity and follow their
model.

Well, but you have to choose very wisely to prove
anything 🙂

You could end with indians eating low-fat vegetarian diet
and having high incidence of coronary diseasy and spanish
eating more saturated fat while lowering their numbers...

Quoted message said:

Having said that, however, it is interesting to see that
not 100 years ago people cooked with lard, drink full
fat milk, used cream in their coffee, ate bacon and
eggs, etc and heart disease wasn't anywhere near as
common as it is

Nice theory, but obvious answer to this is that people
died much sooner because of other diseases, so that heart
disease did not have time to develop....

Mirek

Actualy your "obvious answer" is totaly wrong. People
did not have any shorter life span than we do now. The
so called "average life span" calculations are extremely
missleading and you are dooped if you believe the
distortion that a so called "longer life span" of todays
people is the reason for heart disease and other
degenerative diseases or as they are sometimes WRONGLY
called "diseases of aging" The fact is people DID live
to old ages and there was very little heart disease,
diabetes or many of the other degenerative conditions
that are rampant today. Not only that but they are
striking younger and younger people than ever including
teenagers and young children. 100+ years ago before the
human diet was changed so drasticly americans ate a much
healthyer diet full of saturated fat and cholesterol
from animal sources and lacking modern fake foods like
trans fat, polyunsaturated vegetable oils, refined
flower, and sugar. These are the major causes of modern
degenerative conditions like heart disease and diabetes.
Most people simply do not understand the magnitude of
the change in the human diet that started around 100
years ago.

Good example:

In 1956, an American Heart Association (AHA) fund-raiser
aired on all three major networks. The MC interviewed, among
others, Irving Page and Jeremiah Stamler of the AHA, and
researcher Ancel Keys. Panelists presented the lipid
hypothesis as the cause of the heart disease epidemic and
launched the Prudent Diet, one in which corn oil, margarine,
chicken and cold cereal replaced butter, lard, beef and
eggs. But the television campaign was not an unqualified
success because one of the panelists, Dr. Dudley White,
disputed his colleagues at the AHA. Dr. White noted that
heart disease in the form of myocardial infarction was
nonexistent in 1900 when egg consumption was three times
what it was in 1956 and when corn oil was unavailable. When
pressed to support the Prudent Diet, Dr. White replied: "See
here, I began my practice as a cardiologist in 1921 and I
never saw an MI patent until 1928. Back in the MI free days
before 1920, the fats were butter and lard and I think that
we would all benefit from the kind of diet that we had at a
time when no one had ever heard the word corn oil."

Notice that the Prudent Diet seems perfectly designed to
maximise profits of the food industry, removing such low
profit traditional, healthy foods from animal sources and
replacing them with high profit easily produced fake
processed foods. All this began around 100 years ago and
within one generation of these MAJOR changes in the american
diet severe health effects began to apear in the public.
this trend can be seen in every modernized country as it
replaced its traditional diet with modern "prudent diet"
style eating habits. Within about 20 years (one generation)
degenerative conditions such as heart disease wich were once
rare began to become widespread. This is really not some
kind of secret. This isnt rocket science. Its all right
there for anyone to see and understand. THIS is the "obvious
answer" not some fabricated excuse to shift the blame like
"diseases of aging" do to "longer life spans" That is a joke
and anyone who cares to open their eyes can see the truth.

Just for fun why dont you look up some famous or well
known people who lived 100 200 or even 300 years ago
and see how long they lived. For example take the first
15 presidents who lived in the 1700-1800s. I do not
think even one of them lived less than 60 years old who
died of natural causes and several lived into the 80s
and even 90s back in the late 1700!! Look up the ages
of famous classical music or opera composers. Many of
them lived several hundred years ago and lived to
similar ages. Really the only exeptions are accidental
deaths or from infections or infectious diseases.
Gengis Khan who lived around 800 years ago! was
fighting wars in his 60s untill he died from falling
off his horse around the age of 65. This not only shows
longevity but superb health well into old age. How many
65 year olds do you know today that could be leading
armies into battle on horseback? They would have leave
their rest homes and wheel chairs first. These are just
a few examples. People die from heart disease now in
their 30s and 40s so do not tell me its from old age.
Get some real information and discern answers for
YOURSELF. Do not just spout out apologist mainstream
drivel that is simply designed to make excuses for
their own failure.

"Wolfbrother" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

WRONG!

Dr William Castelli, director of the famous
Framingham Heart Study that is always cited as proof
of the dangers of saturated fat and cholesterol
eventualy had to conclude:

"In Framingham, Mass., the more saturated fat one ate, the
more cholesterol one ate, the more calories one ate, the
lower the person's serum cholesterol ... we found that the
people who ate the most cholesterol, ate the most
saturated fat, [and] ate the most calories, weighed the
least and were the most physically active."

Of course this admission came years too late and the
steam roller that is the diet-heart/anti cholesterol
anti saturated fat campeign was already at full speed.
Gotta love modern mainstream medical research.

You'll find that Dr. William Castelli's quote has been
misinterpreted by Atkins and others.

Here's what Dr. Castelli has to say about that frequently
misinterpreted quote:

"That quote is correct but its interpretation by Atkins and
Sugar Busters and others is wrong. The data are diet history
data. Very weak science!!! For example, the people who eat
the most weigh the least. You mean that we all need to eat
more so we can lose weight. Only an idiot would believe
that. When you find such a finding in an epidemiological
study you must look for the confounder. At least one of the
confounders is exercise. The people who ate the most,
exercised the most and burned off the excess calories and
ended up weighing the least. Better science, where I lock
you up in a metabolic ward has taught us that lowering the
saturated fat, the cholesterol in the diet lowers
cholesterol. Even better, over a dozen diet trials in the
history of medicine which took people off the high fat diet
lowered their cholesterols and 4-5 years out they lowered
their heart attack."

You can read more from Dr. Castelli about that quote here:
vegsource.com833.htmlOpen ↗

Dr Castelli believes we should cut down on saturated fat,
but he doesn't believe all fats are bad though. He has
written a book called Good Fat, Bad Fat where he promotes
the use of healthy oils like olive oil (a staple of the
Mediterranean diet).

Trudy Thelander mediterrasian.commediterrasian.comOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Actualy your "obvious answer" is totaly wrong. People
did not

FYI, my have found this "obvious anwser" on Weston
Price pages...

Quoted message said:

have any shorter life span than we do now. The so called
"average life span" calculations are extremely missleading
and you are dooped if you believe the distortion that a so
called "longer life span" of todays people is the reason
for heart disease and other degenerative diseases or as
they are sometimes WRONGLY called "diseases of aging" The
fact is people DID live to old ages and there was very
little heart disease, diabetes or many of the other
degenerative conditions that are rampant today. Not only
that but they are striking younger and younger people than
ever including teenagers and young children. 100+ years
ago before the human diet was changed so drasticly
americans ate a much healthyer diet full of saturated fat
and cholesterol from animal sources and lacking modern
fake foods like trans fat, polyunsaturated vegetable oils,
refined flower, and sugar. These are the major causes of
modern degenerative conditions like heart disease and
diabetes. Most people simply do not understand the
magnitude of the change in the human diet that started
around 100 years ago.

Sorry, but what you described just another hypothesis.

What I wanted to suggest with my post is that epodemiologic
dietary studies are always fussy bussines..

Quoted message said:

Good example:

In 1956, an American Heart Association (AHA) fund-raiser
aired on all three major networks. The MC interviewed,
among others, Irving Page and Jeremiah Stamler of the AHA,
and researcher Ancel Keys. Panelists presented the lipid
hypothesis as the cause of the heart disease epidemic and
launched the Prudent Diet, one in which corn oil,
margarine, chicken and cold cereal replaced butter, lard,
beef and eggs. But the television campaign was not an
unqualified success because one of the panelists, Dr.
Dudley White, disputed his colleagues at the AHA. Dr.
White noted that heart disease in the form of myocardial
infarction was nonexistent in 1900 when egg consumption
was three times what it was in 1956 and when corn oil was
unavailable. When pressed to support the Prudent Diet, Dr.
White replied: "See here, I began my practice as a
cardiologist in 1921 and I never saw an MI patent until
1928. Back in the MI free days before 1920, the fats were
butter and lard and I think that we would all benefit from
the kind of diet that we had at a time when no one had
ever heard the word corn oil."

OK, list to the end of that article (which I of course have
read). There should be chapter "Epidemy that has not
happened" or something like that...

Mirek

Wasn't the average mortality rate skewed because it factored
in a very high infant mortality? {To use a very simplified
example, if an infant dies at 1 year and an adult dies at 75
years, the the average mortality rate is 38. My great-
grandmother had 18 children; 6 died in childbirth or under
the age of one year, but my great grandparents lived to
their late 80s.}

On 25 Jun 2004 17:46:37 -0700, [email hidden]

(Wolfbrother) said:

"Mirek Fidler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<2k322dF17g9ccU1@uni-
berlin.de>...

Quoted message said:

"Robert Ruddy" <[email hidden]> píse v diskusním
príspevku
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:13:05 -0700, "Chad C."
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>Where is well-done research showing that saturated fat
>per se is

unhealthy?

Quoted message said:

>I'd really like to see it to believe it, it's such
>conventional

wisdom I

Quoted message said:

>know but that's not enough for me. Any theories as to
>why saturated

fat

Quoted message said:

>might be unhealthy as well?
>
>Thanks folks,
>
>-Chad
>

I think the best diet advice is to look at populations
that are noted for their longevity and follow their
model.

Well, but you have to choose very wisely to prove
anything 🙂

You could end with indians eating low-fat vegetarian diet
and having high incidence of coronary diseasy and spanish
eating more saturated fat while lowering their numbers...

Quoted message said:

Having said that, however, it is interesting to see
that not 100 years ago people cooked with lard, drink
full fat milk, used cream in their coffee, ate bacon
and eggs, etc and heart disease wasn't anywhere near as
common as it is

Nice theory, but obvious answer to this is that people
died much sooner because of other diseases, so that heart
disease did not have time to develop....

Mirek

Actualy your "obvious answer" is totaly wrong. People
did not have any shorter life span than we do now. The
so called "average life span" calculations are
extremely missleading and you are dooped if you believe
the distortion that a so called "longer life span" of
todays people is the reason for heart disease and other
degenerative diseases or as they are sometimes WRONGLY
called "diseases of aging" The fact is people DID live
to old ages and there was very little heart disease,
diabetes or many of the other degenerative conditions
that are rampant today. Not only that but they are
striking younger and younger people than ever including
teenagers and young children. 100+ years ago before the
human diet was changed so drasticly americans ate a
much healthyer diet full of saturated fat and
cholesterol from animal sources and lacking modern fake
foods like trans fat, polyunsaturated vegetable oils,
refined flower, and sugar. These are the major causes
of modern degenerative conditions like heart disease
and diabetes. Most people simply do not understand the
magnitude of the change in the human diet that started
around 100 years ago.

Good example:

In 1956, an American Heart Association (AHA) fund-raiser
aired on all three major networks. The MC interviewed,
among others, Irving Page and Jeremiah Stamler of the AHA,
and researcher Ancel Keys. Panelists presented the lipid
hypothesis as the cause of the heart disease epidemic and
launched the Prudent Diet, one in which corn oil,
margarine, chicken and cold cereal replaced butter, lard,
beef and eggs. But the television campaign was not an
unqualified success because one of the panelists, Dr.
Dudley White, disputed his colleagues at the AHA. Dr. White
noted that heart disease in the form of myocardial
infarction was nonexistent in 1900 when egg consumption was
three times what it was in 1956 and when corn oil was
unavailable. When pressed to support the Prudent Diet, Dr.
White replied: "See here, I began my practice as a
cardiologist in 1921 and I never saw an MI patent until
1928. Back in the MI free days before 1920, the fats were
butter and lard and I think that we would all benefit from
the kind of diet that we had at a time when no one had ever
heard the word corn oil."

Notice that the Prudent Diet seems perfectly designed to
maximise profits of the food industry, removing such low
profit traditional, healthy foods from animal sources and
replacing them with high profit easily produced fake
processed foods. All this began around 100 years ago and
within one generation of these MAJOR changes in the
american diet severe health effects began to apear in the
public. this trend can be seen in every modernized country
as it replaced its traditional diet with modern "prudent
diet" style eating habits. Within about 20 years (one
generation) degenerative conditions such as heart disease
wich were once rare began to become widespread. This is
really not some kind of secret. This isnt rocket science.
Its all right there for anyone to see and understand. THIS
is the "obvious answer" not some fabricated excuse to shift
the blame like "diseases of aging" do to "longer life
spans" That is a joke and anyone who cares to open their
eyes can see the truth.

Just for fun why dont you look up some famous or well
known people who lived 100 200 or even 300 years ago
and see how long they lived. For example take the
first 15 presidents who lived in the 1700-1800s. I do
not think even one of them lived less than 60 years
old who died of natural causes and several lived into
the 80s and even 90s back in the late 1700!! Look up
the ages of famous classical music or opera composers.
Many of them lived several hundred years ago and lived
to similar ages. Really the only exeptions are
accidental deaths or from infections or infectious
diseases. Gengis Khan who lived around 800 years ago!
was fighting wars in his 60s untill he died from
falling off his horse around the age of 65. This not
only shows longevity but superb health well into old
age. How many 65 year olds do you know today that
could be leading armies into battle on horseback? They
would have leave their rest homes and wheel chairs
first. These are just a few examples. People die from
heart disease now in their 30s and 40s so do not tell
me its from old age. Get some real information and
discern answers for YOURSELF. Do not just spout out
apologist mainstream drivel that is simply designed to
make excuses for their own failure.

john <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Wasn't the average mortality rate skewed because it
factored in a very high infant mortality? {To use a very
simplified example, if an infant dies at 1 year and an
adult dies at 75 years, the the average mortality rate is
38. My great-grandmother had 18 children; 6 died in
childbirth or under the age of one year, but my great
grandparents lived to their late 80s.}

Bingo. The widespread belief that people are living longer
than ever today is simply and that it is the reason for our
massive health problems is a dirty lie meant to excuse
modern medicine of its failures. People believe it because
it is "common sense" We are a modern technologicaly advanced
society so we must be healthyer and living longer than
people used to. To believe otherwise would be to accept the
fact that our modern society is a disasster and in decline
and people would rather be self dilusional than accept
reality in most cases.

john said:

Wasn't the average mortality rate skewed because it
factored in a very high infant mortality? {To use a very
simplified example, if an infant dies at 1 year and an
adult dies at 75 years, the the average mortality rate is
38. My great-grandmother had 18 children; 6 died in
childbirth or under the age of one year, but my great
grandparents lived to their late 80s.}

It never ceases to amaze me that in a sci newsgroup, at all
places, there are so many people who think that just because
life expectancy, for instance, in 1900 was 47 years, people
just didn't live till their 70s and 80s.