Saiz On Armstrong

B. Lafferty said:

Not well liked it appears.

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_040702181108

Luis Ocana was a great cyclist. I find those old films of
the tour fantastic, even in the early 70s they were crossing
unpaved road passes.

This year's cobbled section is about 2km.

It does seem that LA takes a lot from the sport. Maybe
someone better informed can tell me how much he is involved
in his charity work, maybe that is more important to him?

David Off said:

It does seem that LA takes a lot from the sport. Maybe
someone better informed can tell me how much he is
involved in his charity work, maybe that is more
important to him?

I think what they mean is that he's not present for a lot of
big events. His season is the tour, plus, maybe, a few
classics. That irks a lot of tradionalists... although it's
hard to really fault him unless someone who does the full
season can beat him.

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David N. Welton said:

David Off said:

It does seem that LA takes a lot from the sport. Maybe
someone better informed can tell me how much he is
involved in his charity work, maybe that is more
important to him?

I think what they mean is that he's not present for a lot
of big events. His season is the tour, plus, maybe, a few
classics. That irks a lot of tradionalists... although
it's hard to really fault him unless someone who does the
full season can beat him.

It's the same story. If the TdF itself weren't by far the
biggest jewel on the calendar then Armstrong (and those to
come) wouldn't concentrate so heavily on it. If there were
as much prestige to winning the Giro and Vuelta and World
Cup as there is to winning the Tour then this problem
wouldn't even exist. Who wants the TdF to be less important?

But Manolo's suggestion that Lance shouldn't break the
TdF record because 5 is some kind of holy number is
just twaddle.

"David N. Welton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Off said:

It does seem that LA takes a lot from the sport. Maybe
someone better informed can tell me how much he is
involved in his charity work, maybe that is more
important to him?

I think what they mean is that he's not present for a lot
of big events. His season is the tour, plus, maybe, a few
classics. That irks a lot of tradionalists... although
it's hard to really fault him unless someone who does the
full season can beat him.

Drum roll......The Pro Tour!

Saiz needs a reality adjustment. This is a different era,
like it or not. How many of the real Tour contenders are
showing up at many classics? The Tour de France is so big
and touch from beginning to end that it takes a new breed of
rider to win. I, too, think Eddy was the greatest but wonder
how he would do today if he caught a DeLorian ride from 1970
and dropped into tomorrow's start line. I suspect he would
not do too well until he adapted to today's Tour style, at
which case he would still be at the top IMO. I would like to
see more of the top guys in more of the races but suspect
that Tour victory would then be the first casualty. Funny
how Ullrich, who shows up less often than Lance, does not
catch any criticism.

Tim McTeague

Well said...

"Tim McTeague" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Saiz needs a reality adjustment. This is a different era,
like it or not. How many of the real Tour contenders are
showing up at many classics? The Tour de France is so big
and touch from beginning to end that it takes a

new

Quoted message said:

breed of rider to win. I, too, think Eddy was the greatest
but wonder how he would do today if he caught a DeLorian
ride from 1970 and dropped into tomorrow's start line. I
suspect he would not do too well until he

adapted

Quoted message said:

to today's Tour style, at which case he would still be at
the top IMO. I would like to see more of the top guys in
more of the races but suspect

that

Quoted message said:

Tour victory would then be the first casualty. Funny how
Ullrich, who

shows

Quoted message said:

up less often than Lance, does not catch any criticism.

Tim McTeague

I think some of the dislike of Armstrong is from what seems
to me to e his brutal honesty. In his interviews he never
seems to give the typical athlete's answer that will please
the crowd, but he gives hisan honest answer. Most people
really don't like this, they would rather hear what they
want to hear. For instance on OLN when asked by Phil Liggett
what Ullrich meant when he gave him his hand in the 2003
tour Armstrong said he didn't know, most people would have
made something up about sportmanship.

B. Lafferty said:

Not well liked it appears.

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40702181108

Tim McTeague said:

Saiz needs a reality adjustment. This is a different era,
like it or not. How many of the real Tour contenders are
showing up at many classics? The Tour de France is so big
and touch from beginning to end that it takes a new breed
of rider to win. I, too, think Eddy was the greatest but
wonder how he would do today if he caught a DeLorian ride
from 1970 and dropped into tomorrow's start line. I suspect
he would not do too well until he adapted to today's Tour
style, at which case he would still be at the top IMO. I
would like to see more of the top guys in more of the races
but suspect that Tour victory would then be the first
casualty. Funny how Ullrich, who shows up less often than
Lance, does not catch any criticism.

Tim McTeague

Ullrich has actually ridden much more than Armstrong, year-by-
year. Last year, Ullrich did not ride after the Tour de
France, but years before he rode a lot. I think last year
just meant that Ullrich's fitness base was a kilometre wide
but a decimetre deep.

Ullrich has definitely shown up more than Armstrong in the
in the last six years. Great rides (and some wins) in the
Vuelta, World Champs, Olympics, Zurich, Paris-Tours, Luk-
Cup, Hamburg, and so on....

But, you might suggest that Armstrong races before the tour
to prepare for the TdF, while Ullrich races after the tour
to salvage his season.

However, Ullrich definitely has better-rounded palmares than
Armstrong. He just has not beaten Armstrong in the Tour de
France yet.

steve

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Not well liked it appears.

Neither Saiz or Armstrong have many good friends in
the peloton.

Quoted message said:

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040702/sp_wl_afp/cycling_fra_tour_saiz_040702181108

"Tim McTeague" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Saiz needs a reality adjustment. This is a different era,
like it or not. How many of the real Tour contenders are
showing up at many classics? The Tour de France is so big
and touch from beginning to end that it takes a

new

Quoted message said:

breed of rider to win. I, too, think Eddy was the greatest
but wonder how he would do today if he caught a DeLorian
ride from 1970 and dropped into tomorrow's start line. I
suspect he would not do too well until he

adapted

Quoted message said:

to today's Tour style, at which case he would still be at
the top IMO.

Only if he had to race against those that are following the
Armstrong model. Actually, I don't think he would have any
problems and neither would Hinault. Just because Lance does
it a certain way does not make it the only recipe for
success. That is simply how Lance needs to do it.

I

Quoted message said:

would like to see more of the top guys in more of the
races but suspect

that

Quoted message said:

Tour victory would then be the first casualty.

Every time the race is run, there will be a winner. If they
are all racing all year then the playing feild is equal...so
what is the problem? The problem is that this model of
focusing exclusively on the Tour is bad for the Tour because
it favors the incumbent, who is less at risk in doing so. It
does not make as much sense for the other contenders to
follow suit unless they too have won previously. It does
skew the results a bit in light of those facts.

Funny how Ullrich, who shows

Quoted message said:

up less often than Lance, does not catch any criticism.

He would if he won. Besides, Ullrich races about the same as
Lance in the previous months but a lot more after. Ullrich
races a longer season but again, probably because he is not
winning. This is not about something that Lance did. This is
a trend in the sport that has to be addressed and the
Protour is the hoped for solution. Yikes.

Quoted message said:

Tim McTeague

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David N. Welton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Off said:

It does seem that LA takes a lot from the sport. Maybe
someone better informed can tell me how much he is
involved in his charity work, maybe that is more
important to him?

I think what they mean is that he's not present for a
lot of big events. His season is the tour, plus, maybe,
a few classics. That irks a lot of tradionalists...
although it's hard to really fault him unless someone
who does the full season can beat him.

Drum roll......The Pro Tour!

Exactly. This is more about the power struggle between Saiz
and Heiny than it is about Lance although I bet Saiz has a
Lance Voodoo doll with all kinds of abuse inflicted on it.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tim McTeague said:

Funny how Ullrich, who shows up less often than Lance,
does not catch any criticism.

Tim McTeague

Last year Saiz was saying exactly the same thing about
Ullrich in an interview to l'Équipe (sometime before the
final ITT). Although, as someone else already mentioned in a
message in this thread, Ullrich has in general a pretty good
post-TdF course schedule, I think that his use of the Giro
as a way to lose fat is something that has offended many
traditionalists.

jyh.

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mail --> [email hidden] and Statistics /\ University of
Rhode Island \/ Tel. --> (401) 874-4400 Kingston, RI 02881-
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in article [email hidden], jean-yves hervé at
[email hidden] wrote on 7/2/04 6:54 PM:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Tim

McTeague said:

Funny how Ullrich, who shows up less often than Lance,
does not catch any criticism.

Tim McTeague

Last year Saiz was saying exactly the same thing about
Ullrich in an interview to l'Équipe (sometime before the
final ITT). Although, as someone else already mentioned in
a message in this thread, Ullrich has in general a pretty
good post-TdF course schedule, I think that his use of the
Giro as a way to lose fat is something that has offended
many traditionalists.

Ullrich hasn't done that in a few years, and neither has
anyone else it seems. Simoni is being the rigid
traditionalist.

-Sonarrat.

"Tim McTeague" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Saiz needs a reality adjustment.

<snip>

Dumbass -

It's sour grapes.

Saiz is [censored] that he was never able to win the TdF with
his team, mainly because of Armstrong and Indurain, both of
whom shared the same similar formula.

Poor Manolo. My heart bleeds for him.

Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende!

As an aside, the concentration of publicity on the TdF is
outside of the control of the UCI. No other bike race can be
as big because of:

1) the tradition of the TdF
2) the fact that it coincides w/ the European holiday
season.

Unless the Euro holiday season moves from July or the TdF
moves from July, it will always be the biggest race by far.

No need to thank me for enlightening you. I am a Good
Samaritan. Take care and have a nice day.

K. Gringioni

K. Gringioni said:

Saiz is [censored] that he was never able to win the TdF with
his team, mainly because of Armstrong and Indurain, both
of whom shared the same similar formula.

Quoted message said:

Poor Manolo. My heart bleeds for him.

Quoted message said:

Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende! Vende!

Dumbass,

I think you just said "Sell! Sell! Sell! Sell!" What are you
now, a broker?

In addition to his sour grapes, who the hell is Manolo to
talk? After Jalabert left ONCE, their main results were a
talent for taking 2nd and 3rd in grand tours. Okay, maybe
they, and now Liberty Seguros, have won some one week
Spanish stage races while we weren't looking, but they've
hardly taken all of those, and they are of course invisible
in most one day races. This is "riding all season"?

Ben Venga! Venga!

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:K6-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David N. Welton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Off <[email hidden]> writes:

> It does seem that LA takes a lot from the sport.
> Maybe someone better informed can tell me how much
> he is involved in his charity work, maybe that is
> more important to him?

I think what they mean is that he's not present for a
lot of big events. His season is the tour, plus,
maybe, a few classics. That irks a lot of
tradionalists... although it's hard to really fault
him unless someone who does the full season can beat
him.

Drum roll......The Pro Tour!

Exactly. This is more about the power struggle between
Saiz and Heiny than it is about Lance although I bet Saiz
has a Lance Voodoo doll with all

kinds

Quoted message said:

of abuse inflicted on it.

I wonder if Kristin picked up a gris gris in New Orleans
this year.

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:26-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Not well liked it appears.

Neither Saiz or Armstrong have many good friends in the
peloton.

It depends who you ask. Most of the guys that have cycled
for Sainz say he is great and many more around that have
not yet cycled for one of his teams, openly say they would
love to do it.

"alex" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message new-
s:[email hidden].-
net...

Quoted message said:

Not well liked it appears.

Neither Saiz or Armstrong have many good friends in the
peloton.

It depends who you ask. Most of the guys that have cycled
for Sainz say

he

Quoted message said:

is great and many more around that have not yet cycled for
one of his

teams,

Quoted message said:

openly say they would love to do it.

Sure, he has the authority to offer nice contracts to those
riders. Why burn bridges unless it is already up in flames?
That is when you sometimes hear how they really feel.
Jalabert did not send any Christmas cards after he left for
Riis' team and neither did Zulle. Those are the 2 biggest
stars by far to ever work for him. Let's just hope that he
has learned from some of his many many mistakes.

"Chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Tim McTeague" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Saiz needs a reality adjustment. This is a different
era, like it or not. How many of the real Tour
contenders are showing up at many classics? The Tour de
France is so big and touch from beginning to end that it
takes a

new

Quoted message said:

breed of rider to win. I, too, think Eddy was the
greatest but wonder how he would do today if he caught a
DeLorian ride from 1970 and dropped into tomorrow's
start line. I suspect he would not do too well until he

adapted

Quoted message said:

to today's Tour style, at which case he would still be
at the top IMO.

Only if he had to race against those that are following
the Armstrong model. Actually, I don't think he would have
any problems and neither would Hinault. Just because Lance
does it a certain way does not make it the only recipe for
success. That is simply how Lance needs to do it.

I

Quoted message said:

would like to see more of the top guys in more of the
races but suspect

that

Quoted message said:

Tour victory would then be the first casualty.

Every time the race is run, there will be a winner. If
they are all racing all year then the playing feild is
equal...so what is the problem? The problem is that this
model of focusing exclusively on the Tour is bad for the
Tour because it favors the incumbent, who is less at risk
in doing so. It does not make as much sense for the other
contenders to follow suit unless they too have won
previously. It does skew the results a bit in light of
those facts.

Unfortunately, the riders compete under very uneven
circumstances, which skew the results. The TdF is a
team event, and the reigning Tour Champion is usually
able get the sponsor to make the team flush with
talent. Being the leader of a strong team is a major
advantage. Certainly, somebody like Hinault was able to
take advantage of this. Indeed, the fact that Hinault
had Lemond on his team greatly enhanced his chances of
winning his 5th Tour, especially since Lemond would
otherwise probably have been his most dangerous rival.

There are certain aspects in Cycling where chivalry
still remains. However, the sport has vastly changed
since Eddy Merckx was racing. If armstrong wins the
2004 TdF, it will be a great achievement (unless it is
found that the accusations about LA using performance
enhancing drugs are correct), irrespective of the
advantages that he has from having a powerful team of
mercenaries willing to fight to make sure that
Armstrong wins the Yellow, and his ability to leverage
from the wealth and status gained from his successes
in the TdF.

Naturally, Armstrong should not be praised for his
extreme specialization, even if it is an effective
method to prepare for the TdF. And Armstrong's
reputation should--and will-- suffer, because of the
relatively few Palmares that he has won.

Hopefully, now that the USPS sponsorship is ending,
Armstrong might be freed from competing in the 2005 TdF.
If he wins this TdF, there won't be much incentive for
him to try to break his own record, and risk getting
beaten. This would allow him to strive for a bit more, by
committing to a fuller schedule. It's quite unlikely that
he would attempt them, but if he could pull off a win in
the Giro d'Italia, or the Vuelta de Espana, he would go a
long ways towards bolstering his reputation, and being
considered to be on a par with the likes of Anquetil and
Hinault. In this respect, his first win in Spain or Italy
would be worth more than a 7th win at the TdF.

Quoted message said:

Funny how Ullrich, who shows

Quoted message said:

up less often than Lance, does not catch any criticism.

He would if he won. Besides, Ullrich races about the same
as Lance in the previous months but a lot more after.
Ullrich races a longer season but again, probably because
he is not winning. This is not about something that Lance
did. This is a trend in the sport that has to be addressed
and the Protour is the hoped for solution. Yikes.

Quoted message said:

Tim McTeague