Accident/Insurance advice

Quoted message said:

Originally posted by marcusl

<snip>
Bummer dude.. nice to hear you are okay though.
I can't help with the insurance because all the people that've
hit me have [censored] before I could have words and they've not
been real serious anyway.

Quoted message said:

My main concern is with the frame, whether there is more than >just cosmetic damage (of which there is hardly any)...how do >you go about checking that out? Will a shop mechanic be able to >do it?? or would a frame builder be better??

Hitting front on, a likely place to spot damage will be at the
headtube where the top and downtubes are joined to it.

Look around _all_ the joins for very fine lines that aren't a weld seam - these could be cracked tubes. Look for crumpled paint,
which can also indicate a squished tube.

Check the headset and make sure there's no movement within
the frame, an indication of headtube ovalising.

Check the paintjob all over for scratches, etc. - These could
indicate other places damage has occured.

Suzyj will have some suggestions for any funkier tests I'm sure -
no doubt involving a custom built, custom painted, one-size-fits-all, fully automatic, NASA-approved frame jig. ;-)

Good luck with your insurance.

hippy

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by marcusl
I was involved in a bit of a bingle with a 4wd on Monday night.

[snip]

marcus

PS. sorry for the long winded post

PPS. What irks me the most is that i miss my bike and miss riding and it's only been a couple of days and that any 'replacment' won't be the same. This was THE one, it fit me like a glove and was MY bike. Crazy the attachements we get to inanimate objects!!

Sorry to hear about the accident and I'm glad you're ok.

I once worked on a research project for an insurance company, examining accident claims. My advice (fwiw) is to get your quote but also get an assessment of the pre-accident value of your bike. If it is more costly to restore your bike to its pre-accident condition, it will be cheaper for the insurance company to cut you a cheque (as well as being the correct settlement for the damage to your property).

You'll (probably) need to have a qualified insurance assessor to do that for you - a quote for a new bike from the shop won't do.

Once you have the information, a letter of demand is a pretty powerful tool for making the other insurance company move. From the research I had done, the letter needs to be addressed to the insured, not the company. After all, the insured is liable, whilst the insurer has entered a separate arrangement to indemnify the insured.

Good luck,

Ritch.

PS. F***ing 4wds!

Whoa!
Great to hear your OK

Re the insurance. It seems inane that the onus is on him to have to make a claim before they will act. I guess your note of damages will hurry him along in that regard. make sure you cc thatletter to your insurer and the Police too. Get a copy of their report so they cant blind you with middle-management.
If ,like most insurers' internal policies, and they reject the claim out-of-hand first time round (they do this to weed out half-arsed claims or the naive), dont be put off!
You have been wronged. You deserve recompence

As for the bike. Lay it down in the driveway and drive over it a few times so you can claim for a completely new bike :eek:
Its more than likely if you hit hard enough for thr fork race to snap that there is some crimping around the head-tube anyway

I have often dabbled with the idea of insurance for my bikes but the cost is ridiculous. the BV recommended policy is ridiculous and requires you to change your house policy to them

Hope your spinning again soon

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by hippy
>Originally posted by marcusl
<snip>
Bummer dude.. nice to hear you are okay though.
I can't help with the insurance because all the people that've
hit me have [censored] before I could have words and they've not
been real serious anyway.

After he finished telling me he didn't see me he then said he was very scared for me, his girlfriend was very shaky too. At first i was absolutely P'd off, (threw my bike onto the grass after i picked myself up, angry at him BUT also at myself for letting it happen)....but he seemed genuinely concerned, let me use his mobile to call my wife. And he has been pretty good to talk to since then. when i was waiting for him to cross the road to me, i was building myself up for a confrontation (which i generally avoid) but he was very apologetic....still didn't think it was his fault though....cop told him to reread the road rules!

I'll give the bike a look over (couldn't face looking at it last night)
Thanks hippy...
marcus

Originally posted by marcusl:

Quoted message said:

I was involved in a bit of a bingle with a 4wd on Monday night.

Bummer. Hope you recover quickly.

Quoted message said:

My main concern is with the frame, whether there is more than just
cosmetic damage (of which there is hardly any)...how do you go about
checking that out? Will a shop mechanic be able to do it?? or would
a frame builder be better??

There are some checks you can do yourself. Firstly, take the back wheel out, and run some string from the inside face of one dropout, forward round the headtube, and back to the inside face of the other dropout. If the seat tube isn't in the middle, then the front end has been bent sideways.

Check just back from the head tube, underneath the down tube, for any wrinkling or cracked paint. This is the most stressed area when you hit something (especially if you hit something hard enough to bend your forks). Basically, the forks act as a lever, and push the bottom of the head tube back.

Also check the back of the headtube at the bottom for signs of paint chips.

You can check the angle of the head tube wrt the top tube using a straightedge and precise protractor. This would be a good thing to do, but would mean you'd have to take the headset cups out.

Take it to a reputable shop, and make sure they know that it's going to be paid for by insurance.

Hope it all works out for you.

Regards,

Suzy

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by flyingdutch
Whoa!
Great to hear your OK

Re the insurance. It seems inane that the onus is on him to have to make a claim before they will act. I guess your note of damages will hurry him along in that regard. make sure you cc thatletter to your insurer and the Police too. Get a copy of their report so they cant blind you with middle-management.
If ,like most insurers' internal policies, and they reject the claim out-of-hand first time round (they do this to weed out half-arsed claims or the naive), dont be put off!
You have been wronged. You deserve recompence

As for the bike. Lay it down in the driveway and drive over it a few times so you can claim for a completely new bike :eek:
Its more than likely if you hit hard enough for thr fork race to snap that there is some crimping around the head-tube anyway

I have often dabbled with the idea of insurance for my bikes but the cost is ridiculous. the BV recommended policy is ridiculous and requires you to change your house policy to them

Hope your spinning again soon

Thanks flyingdutch - it'll be interesting to see how i go that first ride....probably do me some good to have that little bit of fear maybe.
I think the idea of the letter of demand is for him to take to his insurance company (if that's the way he wants to proceed) but if he doesn't want to invlove insurance then it becomes a personal thing between myself and him....and could end up in small claims court (or something like that from what I've gleened) I defintley fit into the naive category (when it comes to these matters), but am working on fixing that!!

I have the COPS Event number (it's actually called that) and the officer said that could be used for insurance purposes...they must be able to access the police report...but yes wouldn't mind having a copy of it myself!
Not sure about 'my' insurer....i was a member of BNSW but it lapsed a few months ago....had some personal accident insurance with them.....as a bike user does my car insurance company care? guess i'll have to give them a buzz....

I have thought about running the bike over in the driveway 🙂, but i remeber when we had that huge hail storm here in Sydney and there were people getting out there with golf balls in sock and all sorts putting dents in their cars...trying to claim. Only to have the insurer almost forensically examine the bloody things and find golf ball dimples in the dents, socks fibres etc. 🙂

Cheers Marcus

Marcus,
1) get a copy of the police report (they don't automatically
give it to you in my experience
2) I suggest you get a bike shop that also builds frames to
assess the bike, eg Hillman, Cecil Walker, there must be
several others. That way they can put the frame in a jig
to check for straightness etc as well as quote the
various bits & pieces
3) Send the quote(s) with a letter of demand to the driver,
and send a copy to his insurer. As I understand it you
demand from the driver and then he can decide if he wants
to involve his insurance by making the claim, or pay from
his own pocket.

If the driver is charged with not giving way etc (and you
might encourage the cops to do so) that should make your
case convincing.

There must be a few consumer rights websites with sample
letters of demand for such things.

If you are a Bicycle Victoria member, contact them and
they will help with the letter etc and other advice. If
you are not a member, I'd highly recommend you join for
the accident insurance (both medical, income & damnage to
other party coverage) and their advice and advocacy role
in these situations, especially if you are commuting
often. best of luck

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by ritcho
Sorry to hear about the accident and I'm glad you're ok.

I once worked on a research project for an insurance company, examining accident claims. My advice (fwiw) is to get your quote but also get an assessment of the pre-accident value of your bike. If it is more costly to restore your bike to its pre-accident condition, it will be cheaper for the insurance company to cut you a cheque (as well as being the correct settlement for the damage to your property).

You'll (probably) need to have a qualified insurance assessor to do that for you - a quote for a new bike from the shop won't do.

Once you have the information, a letter of demand is a pretty powerful tool for making the other insurance company move. From the research I had done, the letter needs to be addressed to the insured, not the company. After all, the insured is liable, whilst the insurer has entered a separate arrangement to indemnify the insured.

Good luck,

Ritch.

PS. F***ing 4wds!

How do you find a qualified insurance assessor for bicycles? Might give BNSW a call they may know if there is one in Sydney....
How do you get a pre-accident value assessment of your bike if it's not from a bike shop...hmm....don't have the receipts...actually got it from my brother in law who USED to run a bike shop on the Gold Coast for an extreme discount ($700 instead of $1500)
As for the letter, i read somewhere to send it to both the insured and their insurer....it was actually his dad's car and is probably insured thus....but i don't have his fathers name....
Defintley more research required!
In a way I'm kind of glad it was a 4wd...if it had've been lower then i would have been catapulted over the top and landed who knows how....
thanks for the advice
marcus

marcusl <[email hidden]> wrote in news:NOpEc.51016
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Miracurously (sp?) the only injuries i recieved were some
sore and slightly swollen knees with some skin off (i
think from hitting the handle bars on the way over), a
bruised hip , plus shoulder and lats that feel like I've
just done a huge session at the gym

You seem to be worried mainly about the bike (I'd
probably be the same), but remember you have been injured
and a course of physio or whatever should also be part of
the deal. Get yourself to a doctor NOW so he can say
you've done x, y & z to yourself. You can then claim for
personal injury.

Graeme

Originally posted by marcusl

Quoted message said:

I was involved in a bit of a bingle with a 4wd on Monday night.

Glad you're not badly hurt.

Quoted message said:

...I slid side ways a bit....
Ended up rolling in midair and landing on my side/back in the middle of the road with my bike beside me.....
the only injuries i recieved were some sore and slightly swollen knees with some skin off (i think from hitting the handle bars on the way over), a bruised hip ,......

After all that you may need to claim for damage to or replacement of your helmet, gloves, riding clothes, back pack etc. Your losses aren't limited to 'just' your bike.

Quoted message said:

...I was just wondering if anyone has any advice dealing with insurance companies on this.

Put it all in writing!

Quoted message said:

...send a letter of demand to him personally with a quote for repairs/replacement. If the letter goes ignored to send another giving a time limit and advising that your going to commence legal proceedings...and if that expires then to commence legal proceedings.

Do this when you have quote/s. Don't wait for the other party.

Quoted message said:

My main concern is with the frame, whether there is more than just cosmetic damage (of which there is hardly any).

Get a quote for a custom replacement frame! 😉

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Graeme

You seem to be worried mainly about the bike (I'd
probably be the same), but remember you have been injured
and a course of physio or whatever should also be part of
the deal. Get yourself to a doctor NOW so he can say
you've done x, y & z to yourself. You can then claim for
personal injury.

Graeme [/B]

You sound like my wife 🙂 - which is a good thing as she's only concerned for me...so it's nice to have your concern....
She didn't want me to go to work the next day...after all i had the perfect excuse BUT it's just not in my nature...
I'll probably open a new kettle of worms...but our society has become way too litigious anyway. Like these guys that get drunk, break into a bar, get injured and then sue. For F*&%'s sake take some responsibility for yourselves. There was no need for a doctor/ambulance - so it would seem dishonest to me.
If anything I'm suffering more mental anguish from not being able to ride 🙂 I'm just much happier if i'm riding. I get home from work on a high....but i think i'll get over it 🙂 (when i get the bike back on the road!!)
Obviously if I'd broken anything, had any major grazes, bruising I'd consider it....but like i said miracurously (for me and disappointingly so for others that I've told about it - they want to see blood and gore!)there is nothing like that.....

anyway have spoken to several people and for those that are interested....here's what I've found out.....
to get a copy of the police report will cost $38 from the Freedom Of Information Insurance Unit....
According to BNSW taking the bike to a reputable LBS for assessment should be enough...have spoken to Clarence St and Renegade's they seemed to know what they were talking about and have done it before.....I'll probably speak to a BS who also build frames in NSW and see what they've got to say....would appreciate their advice.

Having said all this about letters of demand etc. I think I'd like to give the guy a chance to do the right thing before such heavy handedness....ask him if he's prepared to compensate me OR if he wants to use insurance etc and proceed that way. (rather than him suddenly receiving such a demand/threat)

Thanks all for the advice and if you like i'll keep you posted on how things proceed
marcus

Good to hear you are OK.

When I had a similar accident the driver of the ute also
expressed that he hadn't seen me. I then explained that
I would have been worried if he had seen me and still
cut me off.

The driver just paid for all damage. I hope you are as
lucky.

Cheers.

marcusl <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was involved in a bit of a bingle with a 4wd on Monday
night. Basically the guy pulled out of a side street to
turn right onto the street i was on, across in front of me
just in time for me to plow into him just behind the
drivers door. I saw him going but as it was a slight
downhill i was getting along at about 40kph (i checked my
computer AFTER and it said 47kph was my max so far for the
ride and as this was the fastest section in the ride so
far I'm assuming about 40) and just did not have time to
stop. Slammed on the brakes and just remember thinking
"F%@$ I am going to hit him!" Because he was slighty
turned and I slid side ways a bit it, I hit at an angle
and not directly into his side which i think saved me.
After the intial impact i must have slid along the side of
his vehicle (putting a nice new dent (with the bar ends i
think) all the way along)and being spat out the back end.
Ended up rolling in midair and landing on my side/back in
the middle of the road with my bike beside me.
Miracurously (sp?) the only injuries i recieved were some
sore and slightly swollen knees with some skin off (i
think from hitting the handle bars on the way over), a
bruised hip , plus shoulder and lats that feel like I've
just done a huge session at the gym. I consider myself
VERY lucky!! The bike was not so lucky....suspension forks
snapped at the crown/arch (?) and the front wheel bent
back on itself, rim snapped and spokes that look like
spaghetti, and the disc is buckled (thank god for crumple
zones, right ?? 🙂 ) Frame LOOKS straight, handle bars
look fine and lights still work!! And what was the first
thing the guy said (all together now) "Sorry mate - didn't
see you" WTF??!! Didn't see me?!! I had twin halogen
headlights, bright orange jumper - there are street lights
all the way along??! Sentiments that were echoed by the
cops when they arrived. They gave him a bit of a serve
about it because he didn't seem to think it was his fault,
he even asked the cop if it was because it was a cyclist
that he getting so much grief and that just set the cop
off again. I actually felt slightly sorry for the guy
(only slightly) because i know that i've been in the car
before and have just not seen another car/bus/bike on some
occasion....but it was the feeling that he didn't think he
was to blame that extinguished that my feeling sorry for
him!! I sincerely hope he has learnt from this - I know i
have!! I've never had an accident of any sort in 13 yrs of
driving. I've had some close calls since i started
commuting 3 days per week 2.5 years ago, but i don't think
i truly realise what fine line it is we walk (drive/ride
🙂 ) when we're on the road - in any form of transport. I
just trusted other road users to do the right thing TOO
much (looking back now any amount of trust in other road
users is too much!!) My wife handled it fine until she
came to pick me up and saw the condition of the bike and i
must admit a shiver goes up the spine when i look at my
poor bike. Anyway enough of the therapy session...I was
just wondering if anyone has any advice dealing with
insurance companies on this. I've contacted his insurance
company and they've said that until he makes a claim
they're unable to help me and only then if he's at fault
(which i am pretty sure would be the result of the police
report judging by what was said at the scene) The advice
I've recieved from NRMA (who i am insured with for my car)
and from his company is to get a quote (only one required)
and either wait for him to make a claim OR to send a
letter of demand to him personally with a quote for
repairs/replacement. If the letter goes ignored to send
another giving a time limit and advising that your going
to commence legal proceedings...and if that expires then
to commence legal proceedings. (i hope things don't get
that far!!) As far as getting quotes i've contacted some
bike shops on this and they're more than willing to do it,
and that they'd get their mechanic (hopefully not some
18yo who knows how to adjust gears/brakes and that's all)
to inspect it and give aquote. Some shops want a payment
for this service which they'll take from the price if i
end up getting the bike from them. Fair enough really
(they have a business to run)but it means i don't want to
have to lug the bike to too many places and incur any cost
my self (which i really can't afford). My main concern is
with the frame, whether there is more than just cosmetic
damage (of which there is hardly any)...how do you go
about checking that out? Will a shop mechanic be able to
do it?? or would a frame builder be better?? Any
advice/experience would be very much appreciated (what
i've been receiving is skewed towards cars it seems) I
haven't got a regular LBS, am not a member of a BUG and
none of my mates ride....I lurk here on cyclingforums.com
sometimes and would appreciate a 'cyclists' point of view!

marcus

PS. sorry for the long winded post

PP What irks me the most is that i miss my bike and miss
riding and it's only been a couple of days and that any
'replacment' won't be the same. This was THE one, it fit
me like a glove and was MY bike. Crazy the attachements
we get to inanimate objects!!

--

marcusl <[email hidden]> wrote in news:EFsEc.37360$Io3.7562
@fe05.usenetserver.com:

Quoted message said:

You sound like my wife 🙂

...quick check.... Nope, I've got all the wrong bits to be
anyone's wife
:-)

Graeme

Had an accident very similar to this riding along main road
downhill about 40 km/h car drives staight into me from a
side street. The lady was very apologetic about it all
agreeing to pay. So about 2 weeks later I give her the bill
then she starts crapping on the police said she didn't have
to pay, I must have pulled out from the footpath otherwise
she would have seen me. Tried ringing the ladys insurance
and was told they wouldn't do anything unless she lodged a
claim. So I decided to let it go and just pay the damages
myself about $300. Around 3 weeks after getting my bike back
the frame snapped. So I took it to a bike shop and got a
quote for a replacement around $1000 then lodged a
prelodgement notice which cost me $10 and can be done online
(here in SA).

About a week after putting the notice in her letterbox I had
a call from her insurance telling me they were liable and
agreeing at first to only pay for the repairs (becuase I
rode it after the repairs they claimed the cracked frame
wasn't caused by the accident). It didn't take much to get
them to send an assessor around to look at the bike and he
agreed to pay for a new bike as well as a helmet and a few
other damaged accessories. I'm probably lucky she didn't
agree to pay at first otherwise I would have ended up with
only the obvious damage fixed instead of a whole new bike.

So if the driver gives you the run around definately send a
letter of demand/prelodgement notice. Don't worry to much
about the insurance the other guy is clearly at fault. In my
case the police didn't attend the scene and the lady
probably bent the truth abit in her police report but the
insurance company still paid out no problems.

marcusl said:

Obviously if I'd broken anything, had any major grazes,
bruising I'd consider it....but like i said miracurously
(for me and disappointingly so for others that I've told
about it - they want to see blood and gore!)there is
nothing like that.....

A couple of years ago I had a much more minor bingle than
you - I avoided the car and fell off, no real impact with
the car. Didn't seem to have any injuries except grazes.

HOWEVER, I found out a week later (from an x-ray) that I had
a broken scaphoid bone (in the wrist). Needed 6 weeks in
plaster and 6 more in a brace. If this injury isn't picked
up, the bone tends to die and cause arthritis etc...

(engage nagging mother tone) So, definitely get yourself
checked out properly!!

"Graeme" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

marcusl <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:NOpEc.51016 [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Miracurously (sp?) the only injuries i recieved were
some sore and slightly swollen knees with some skin off
(i think from hitting the handle bars on the way over),
a bruised hip , plus shoulder and lats that feel like
I've just done a huge session at the gym

You seem to be worried mainly about the bike (I'd probably
be the same), but remember you have been injured and a
course of physio or whatever should also be part of the
deal. Get yourself to a doctor NOW so he can

say

Quoted message said:

you've done x, y & z to yourself. You can then claim for
personal injury.

Graeme

BINGO! also take pictures of your knees. i know i'm late on
this. my appologies, but get the pictures asap! also
pictures of the bike and the accident spot. (if ya made
marks through the grass and tore up turf it can show how
hard you hit.)

3 years ago i got hit from behind by a guy who was driving
WAY too fast. he hit me going 70 mph (120-130 kmph) his PU
drug me 140 feet, i flew another 50 feet and skid on my
knees another 20 feet. got all that on film about two days
later. you can see in the pictures where his tire blew, how
far he traveled before hitting me, where he slammed into me,
where the vehicule stopped at and where i landed and skid.
we had used one of those really long tape measures and tooke
pictures from one place to the next. makes for a very good
case in court. also i had gotten pictures of all the damage
to my body (quite embarrassing to have my poor mother take
pictures of my bare tush and other bare body parts but had
to be done.) had pictures taken of the bike along w/ all the
gear that got smooshed. (bike went under the truck, i went
through the truck.) and had gotten pictures of the other
vehicule as he had signed it over to the police. it wasn't
drivable after the accident seeing as i had moved the engine
block through the dashboard via my tail end. (i really
shouldn't be alive)

anyway i degress here. pictures are one of the best things
you can use in court. they don't lie. (well usually they
don't lie... now a days however.... )

good luck and get pictures!

cheers kat

marcusl <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

How do you find a qualified insurance assessor for
bicycles? Might give BNSW a call they may know if there is
one in Sydney....

Aah, you are in Sydney. I'd suggest giving Bike Addiction a
call (9938 3511), especially if you're on the North Side.
Hugh really knows his stuff wrt to broken bikes, having
killed his fair share over the years. In my experience, BA
are also honest and enthusiastic about bikes - I can't go
there if I'm in a hurry, because I always end up chatting
for a while.

Quoted message said:

How do you get a pre-accident value assessment of your
bike if it's not from a bike shop...hmm....don't have the
receipts...

A good bike shop will be able to make an assessment of
replacement value for the equivalent, probably devalued for
wear and tear.

I'd also go to a doctor and get a full checkup, just to be
sure. If there is anything wrong, you want to know *now*, so
you can a) have a better chance of getting it fixed, and b)
have a better chance of showing it's a result of the prang.

Dave - who found a Crumpler sticker under his brake cable
last night at the pub.

--
Dave Hughes | [email hidden] "...and trogdor smote
the kerrek. And all was laid to burnination." -- Strongbad

marcusl wrote: *snip*

Quoted message said:

Having said all this about letters of demand etc. I think
I'd like to give the guy a chance to do the right thing
before such heavy handedness....ask him if he's prepared
to compensate me OR if he wants to use insurance etc and
proceed that way. (rather than him suddenly receiving such
a demand/threat)

Once you have the quotes, sending a letter of demand isn't
heavy handedness, it's a formality. All claims should be
addressed to the driver, regardless of who owns/insures the
vehicle, it is then up to him to pass the matter on to the
insurance company.

If you are in NSW there is a good page from the Attorney
Generals Dept regarding debt recovery, and it has links to
sample letters of demand.

<http://www.agd.nsw.gov.au/lc.nsf/pages/info_issueclaims>

Don't rush into a quick settlement until you have seen the
doctors and results are finalised - it is very important to
get a thorough medical checkup, and make sure you claim any
costs involved.

- Munk3y

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Vixen2yall


3 years ago i got hit from behind by a guy who was driving
WAY too fast. he hit me going 70 mph (120-130 kmph) his PU
drug me 140 feet, i flew another 50 feet and skid on my
knees another 20 feet. got all that on film about two days
later. you can see in the pictures where his tire blew, how
far he traveled before hitting me, where he slammed into me,
where the vehicule stopped at and where i landed and skid.
we had used one of those really long tape measures and tooke
pictures from one place to the next. makes for a very good
case in court. also i had gotten pictures of all the damage
to my body (quite embarrassing to have my poor mother take
pictures of my bare tush and other bare body parts but had
to be done.) had pictures taken of the bike along w/ all the
gear that got smooshed. (bike went under the truck, i went
through the truck.) and had gotten pictures of the other
vehicule as he had signed it over to the police. it wasn't
drivable after the accident seeing as i had moved the engine
block through the dashboard via my tail end. (i really
shouldn't be alive)

anyway i degress here. pictures are one of the best things
you can use in court. they don't lie. (well usually they
don't lie... now a days however.... )

good luck and get pictures!

cheers kat

Ouch-erama!!!

sounds lik an episode of Jackass!