Speed limit

Brian Drury said:

Is there an enforceable speed limit on cycle paths?

The reason I ask is that today, with a strong tail wind I
was cruising at over 30mph on the Brighton seafront cycle
path and when two of our cycle equipped police riding two
abreast eventually spotted me heading toward them there
was evidence of panic and I suspect some agitation. I know
I should have slowed down but it was amusing.

There were reports of cycle police and local authority
officers attempting to impose a speed limit on the local
downs link cycle/walking path. I did not see this but have
seen the 'SLOW' signs along the path.

So, is there? Has anbody been nicked for this?

The normal speed limits do not apply to bicycles but I'd
need to check the RTRA 1984 to see if it could be done
through a TRO

Tony

Brian Drury said:

Is there an enforceable speed limit on cycle paths?

The reason I ask is that today, with a strong tail wind I
was cruising at over 30mph on the Brighton seafront cycle
path and when two of our cycle equipped police riding two
abreast eventually spotted me heading toward them there
was evidence of panic and I suspect some agitation. I know
I should have slowed down but it was amusing.

There were reports of cycle police and local authority
officers attempting to impose a speed limit on the local
downs link cycle/walking path. I did not see this but have
seen the 'SLOW' signs along the path.

So, is there? Has anbody been nicked for this?

As bikes don't have to have speedometers, any limit would be
unenforceable.

On the public road, speed limits only apply to motor
vehicles, btw. There are a lot of urban myths to the
contrary, and a lot of coppers who should know better.

Zog The Undeniable said:

As bikes don't have to have speedometers, any limit would
be unenforceable.

Not true

Quoted message said:

On the public road, speed limits only apply to motor
vehicles, btw. There are a lot of urban myths to the
contrary, and a lot of coppers who should know better.

True of roads in general but not universally true. Roads in
Royal Parks for example can have speed limits that apply to
bicycles. There has been debate for example about
introducing a 20mph limit including bikes in Richmond Park

Tony

Tony Raven said:

Zog The Undeniable said:

As bikes don't have to have speedometers, any limit would
be unenforceable.

Not true

Quoted message said:

On the public road, speed limits only apply to motor
vehicles, btw. There are a lot of urban myths to the
contrary, and a lot of coppers who should know better.

True of roads in general but not universally true. Roads
in Royal Parks for example can have speed limits that
apply to bicycles. There has been debate for example about
introducing a 20mph limit including bikes in Richmond Park

Tony

I was going to ask about this. The 20mph speed limit in
Richmond Park has bee introduced, and when cars stick to it,
it makes it dangerous for some cyclists as they're now
needing to overtake cars on a regular basis. A copper
informed a friend of mine that the speed limit DID apply to
cyclists and they would start to enforce it.

Anybody have and less anecdotal information?

Pete

Ningi said:

I was going to ask about this. The 20mph speed limit in
Richmond Park has bee introduced, and when cars stick to
it, it makes it dangerous for some cyclists as they're now
needing to overtake cars on a regular basis. A copper
informed a friend of mine that the speed limit DID apply
to cyclists and they would start to enforce it.

Anybody have and less anecdotal information?

The copper is right.

The roads in the Royal Parks are not public highways but
Park Roads. The use of the Park is covered by the Royal Park
and Other Open Spaces Regulations 1997. Section 4(28) says
written permission is required to:

(28) drive or ride any vehicle on a Park road in excess of
the speed specified in relation to that road in Part II
of Schedule 2 to these Regulations;

Schedule 2 says:

Speeds at which vehicles may be driven or ridden on a Park
road

29. On the Park roads in Bushy Park, Greenwich Park,
Hyde Park (except for the Serpentine Road), The
Regent's Park, Richmond Park and St. James's and
The Green Parks, at a speed not exceeding 30 m.p.h.

30. On the Serpentine Road in Hyde Park, and on the
Park road from Kingston Gate leading to the Home
Park Golf Club in Hampton Court Park, at a speed
not exceeding 15 m.p.h.

31. On any Park road (other than one mentioned in
paragraphs 1 or 2 above) at a speed not
exceeding 10 m.p.h.

For Richmond Park the speed limit was reduced from 30mph to
20mph from 10 May 2004 by the Royal Park and Open Spaces
(Amendment) Regulations 2004

It is legally enforcable by the Royal Parks Constabulary
(who are separate from the Metropolitan Police and report to
the Royal Parks Agency, not the Home Office)

Tony

Brian Drury said:

Is there an enforceable speed limit on cycle paths?

The reason I ask is that today, with a strong tail wind I
was cruising at over 30mph on the Brighton seafront cycle
path and when two of our cycle equipped police riding two
abreast eventually spotted me heading toward them there
was evidence of panic and I suspect some agitation. I know
I should have slowed down but it was amusing.

There were reports of cycle police and local authority
officers attempting to impose a speed limit on the local
downs link cycle/walking path. I did not see this but have
seen the 'SLOW' signs along the path.

So, is there? Has anbody been nicked for this?

I know not whether anyone has been nicked for it, but the
cycle path at here:

<URL: tinyurl.comywsz8Open ↗>

is liberally sprinkled with 20 mph signs. I remain curious
as to how the Aged William intend to enforce this...

--

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===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

In "]news:[email hidden],
Tony Raven <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

The copper is right.

The roads in the Royal Parks are not public highways but
Park Roads. The use of the Park is covered by the Royal
Park and Other Open Spaces Regulations 1997. Section 4(28)
says written permission is required to:

(28) drive or ride any vehicle on a Park road in excess of
the speed specified in relation to that road in Part
II of Schedule 2 to these Regulations;

Schedule 2 says:

Speeds at which vehicles may be driven or ridden on a
Park road

1. On the Park roads in Bushy Park, Greenwich Park,
Hyde Park (except for the Serpentine Road), The
Regent's Park, Richmond Park and St. James's and
The Green Parks, at a speed not exceeding 30
m.p.h.

2. On the Serpentine Road in Hyde Park, and on the
Park road from Kingston Gate leading to the Home
Park Golf Club in Hampton Court Park, at a speed
not exceeding 15 m.p.h.

3. On any Park road (other than one mentioned in
paragraphs 1 or 2 above) at a speed not exceeding
10 m.p.h.

So does that include Holyrood park which is also a Royal
Park, or is it mentioned in the equivalent Scottish act?

Ambrose Nankivell said:

So does that include Holyrood park which is also a Royal
Park, or is it mentioned in the equivalent Scottish act?

No. I was responding to a question on Richmond park but the
Royal Park and Open Spaces Regulations only apply to Royal
Parks and open spaces in London. As well as the obvious
parks they include as open space the gardens of the Natural
History Museum, Trafalgar Square, Primrose Hill and the
gardens of 10-12 Downing Street.

Don't know about Scottish Royal Parks

Tony

Tony Raven said:

The roads in the Royal Parks are not public highways but
Park Roads. The use of the Park is covered by the Royal
Park and Other Open Spaces Regulations 1997.

Is it legal to cycle faster than the 20 mph "speed limit" on
the road* that runs through the non-royal Alexandra Park,
north London (N22)? This is a private road (although is
owned by Haringey council).

* has no name, AFAIK.

~PB

Quoted message said:

Ningi said:

I was going to ask about this. The 20mph speed limit in
Richmond Park has bee introduced.........

We're lucky cycling is allowed at all there. Shame about
Windsor Great Park: "No cycles -- ridden or otherwise".

~PB

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:55:05 +0100, "Tony Raven"
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Zog The Undeniable said:

As bikes don't have to have speedometers, any limit would
be unenforceable.

Not true

Not true that bikes do not need to be fitted with
speedometers?

Or not true that that means one cannot therefore expect bike
riders to conform to speed limits?

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Gawnsoft said:

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:55:05 +0100, "Tony Raven" <junk@raven-
family.com> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Zog The Undeniable said:

As bikes don't have to have speedometers, any limit
would be unenforceable.

Not true

Not true that bikes do not need to be fitted with
speedometers?

Or not true that that means one cannot therefore expect
bike riders to conform to speed limits?

Not true that the limit is unenforceable because bikes don't
have speedometers. Same way that drink driving laws are
enforceable despite cars not being fitted with blood alcohol
monitoring equipment. There are parts of the world including
Richmond Park YouK and Marin County YouessAy where speed
limits on bicycles are enforced speedometer or not.

Tony

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:14:17 +0100, "Tony Raven"
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Gawnsoft said:

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:55:05 +0100, "Tony Raven" <junk@raven-
family.com> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Zog The Undeniable wrote:
>
> As bikes don't have to have speedometers, any limit
> would be unenforceable.
>

Not true

Not true that bikes do not need to be fitted with
speedometers?

Or not true that that means one cannot therefore expect
bike riders to conform to speed limits?

Not true that the limit is unenforceable because bikes
don't have speedometers. Same way that drink driving laws
are enforceable despite cars not being fitted with blood
alcohol monitoring equipment. There are parts of the
world including Richmond Park YouK and Marin County
YouessAy where speed limits on bicycles are enforced
speedometer or not.

Of course, drink limits when driving are possible to avoid
by not drinking at all when driving.

It's not possible to have no speed at all, and still be
considered driving. (or cycling. Or travelling at all)

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Gawnsoft said:

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:31:34 +0100, Jeremy Collins <jd.collins@ntlworld-
not.com> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Does it state anywhere that a pedal cycle is a
*vehicle*???

I couldn't find a UK legal definition of "vehicle",

That's becuase it varies from part to part of the UK.

Legally, IIRC, under Scottish law bicycles can be viewed
as a pedestrian with additional equipment, although I've
no idea what the specific phrasing is.

Hansford vs London Express Newspapers (1928):

"I cannot see any reason for putting a limitation on the
meaning of the word "vehicle" and I hold that the word
included a bicycle."

I think the Scottish situation you are thinking about
relates to it being legal in Scotland to cycle on footpaths.

Tony

Gawnsoft said:

Of course, drink limits when driving are possible to avoid
by not drinking at all when driving.

It's not possible to have no speed at all, and still be
considered driving. (or cycling. Or travelling at all)

Its quite possible to cycle slowly enough that you do not
exceed the speed
limit. If you want to drink drive close to the limit,
better get yourself a breathalyser. If you want to
cycle close to a speed limit, where one applies to
bicycles, better get yourself a speedometer. If you
want to believe that you can't be prosecuted for
either if you don't have a measuring device
available, that's your perogative.

Tony

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gawnsoft said:

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:55:05 +0100, "Tony Raven" <junk@raven-
family.com> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Zog The Undeniable wrote:
>
> As bikes don't have to have speedometers, any limit
> would be unenforceable.
>

Not true

Not true that bikes do not need to be fitted with
speedometers?

Or not true that that means one cannot therefore expect
bike riders to conform to speed limits?

Not true that the limit is unenforceable because bikes
don't have speedometers. Same way that drink driving laws
are enforceable despite

cars

Quoted message said:

not being fitted with blood alcohol monitoring equipment.
There are

parts

Quoted message said:

of the world including Richmond Park YouK and Marin County
YouessAy where speed limits on bicycles are enforced
speedometer or not.

I am far from certain about this, but I recall reading
somewhere that there is no obligation for cars to have
speedometers.

On a similar line, there was a discussion on Usenet
somewhere (I forget) about whether cars with speedos in Km/h
only were road legal. The consensus was that they were.

Tony Raven said:

The copper is right.

The roads in the Royal Parks are not public highways but
Park Roads. The use of the Park is covered by the Royal
Park and Other Open Spaces Regulations 1997. Section 4(28)
says written permission is required to:

(28) drive or ride any vehicle on a Park road in excess of
the speed specified in relation to that road in Part
II of Schedule 2 to these Regulations;

Schedule 2 says:

Speeds at which vehicles may be driven or ridden on a
Park road

1. On the Park roads in Bushy Park, Greenwich Park,
Hyde Park (except for the Serpentine Road), The
Regent's Park, Richmond Park and St. James's and
The Green Parks, at a speed not exceeding 30
m.p.h.

2. On the Serpentine Road in Hyde Park, and on the
Park road from Kingston Gate leading to the Home
Park Golf Club in Hampton Court Park, at a speed
not exceeding 15 m.p.h.

3. On any Park road (other than one mentioned in
paragraphs 1 or 2 above) at a speed not exceeding
10 m.p.h.

For Richmond Park the speed limit was reduced from 30mph
to 20mph from 10 May 2004 by the Royal Park and Open
Spaces (Amendment) Regulations 2004

It is legally enforcable by the Royal Parks Constabulary
(who are separate from the Metropolitan Police and report
to the Royal Parks Agency, not the Home Office)

So if you don't fit a computer, how are you expected to know
the difference between 19mph and 22mph (OK, experienced
cyclists will know from their gear and cadence, but it would
be an interesting court case)?

Nathaniel Porter said:

I am far from certain about this, but I recall reading
somewhere that there is no obligation for cars to have
speedometers.

I believe a rev counter has been proved good enough, because
it (sort of) indicates speed.

Zog The Undeniable said:

So if you don't fit a computer, how are you expected to
know the difference between 19mph and 22mph (OK,
experienced cyclists will know from their gear and
cadence, but it would be an interesting court case)?

That's your problem. Your inability to measure your speed no
more exempts you if you break the speed limit than your
inability to measure you blood alcohol exempts you if you
exceed the drink driving limit.

Tony