TI Freestyle

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (ronenta)

Question:

Quoted message said:

So the bottom line is I guess, would you say that the TI
freestyle is a good model to go by?

Earlier answer:

Quoted message said:

While browsing through past threads I noticed that most of
you agree that the Total Immersion freestyle is healthy for
the shoulder

Now what exactly is your question?

Gleshna

Overheard at 2004 ESA Northeastern Regional Surf Contest:

"F%&*, I got beaten by a guy from the Great Lakes!"

On 15 Jun 2004 00:24:26 -0700, [email hidden]

(ronenta) said:

Total Immersion freestyle the freestyler's body is
perpendicular to the surface but his hand is palm down,
internally rotated and facing the bottom. This a no no, no?

I'd say so, yes. For someone with a suspect shoulder there's
no reason to glide with your shoulder internally rotated.

Look at this page:
donalfagan.comstreamline.htmlOpen ↗

Look at the pic under the following caption: Clips from the
1997 Total Immersion video show Terry Laughlin swimming in a
streamlined position without extreme internal rotation.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

[email hidden] (ronenta) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello all, As you may know, I am trying to rework my
freestyle into something more shoulder friendly. I'm
looking for photos and videos that I can model my stroke
by. While browsing through past threads I noticed that
most of you agree that the Total Immersion freestyle is
healthy for the shoulder. So I went to their site
(www.totalimmersion.net) and browsed through the videos.
Now in most of them the freestyler's body is perpendicular
to the surface but his hand is palm down, internally
rotated and facing the bottom. This a no no, no?

Besides that though, the stroke looks really smooth.

So the bottom line is I guess, would you say that the TI
freestyle is a good model to go by?

Thanks again, Ronen

P.S Oh, and I saw all kinds of books on the site. Any you
would specifically recommend?

Terry Laughlin says very little about exact arm positions
during the strokes. It's not his deal. He's into balanced,
streamlined swimming while trying to generate as much power
as possible from the rotation of the hips.

Having said that, some of his videos depict swimmers kicking
across the poool in a "side-balance" position with palm of
the out-stretched hand facing the bottom of the pool. This
is certainly a position you should AVOID. If you do such
drills, keep your palm pointed to the side of the pool,
thumb up. Rotate your hand down only as you go to a catch
position and start your body rotating to the opposite hip.

Eric

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (ronenta)

Question:

Quoted message said:

So the bottom line is I guess, would you say that the TI
freestyle is a good model to go by?

A good model? Of course! Terry Laughlin is pushing 60 and
competes in open water ultra marathons. If you could swim
like him, I'd say you were doing well.

For that matter, the closest person to being the TI poster
child would be Adrienne Binder. She's an Olympic hopeful in
the 800 free. If you could swim like her, I'd certainly say
you were doing well.

If you compare videos of Terry and Adrienne, you'll notice
that they don't look alike. (Well, besides the obvious. :-)
They have each adjusted their styles to suit their own
needs. Are either of their styles the best for you? Maybe,
maybe not. The only way to find out is to experiment.

Ross

It's a nice page you have there, Donal. I want to check,
with your help, if I got it right.

I read: according to the published study of Yanai and Hay,
40% of impingement occurs during recovery, 40% at entry, and
only 20% at pull through.

I want to try to have my pinky pointing down during recovery
and entry, and actually also during the pull through, with
the palm perpendicular to the body (this means I have to
bend the forearm at the elbow). Would this technique
minimize impingement?

thanks, haim

==================================================

"Donal Fagan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 15 Jun 2004 00:24:26 -0700, [email hidden]

(ronenta) said:

Total Immersion freestyle the freestyler's body is
perpendicular to the surface but his hand is palm
down, internally rotated and facing the bottom. This a
no no, no?

I'd say so, yes. For someone with a suspect shoulder
there's no reason to glide with your shoulder internally
rotated.

Look at this page:
donalfagan.comstreamline.htmlOpen ↗

Look at the pic under the following caption: Clips from
the 1997 Total Immersion video show Terry Laughlin
swimming in a streamlined position without extreme
internal rotation.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

[email hidden] (4precious) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Terry Laughlin says very little about exact arm positions
during the strokes. It's not his deal. He's into balanced,
streamlined swimming while trying to generate as much
power as possible from the rotation of the hips.

Having said that, some of his videos depict swimmers
kicking across the poool in a "side-balance" position with
palm of the out-stretched hand facing the bottom of the
pool. This is certainly a position you should AVOID. If
you do such drills, keep your palm pointed to the side of
the pool, thumb up. Rotate your hand down only as you go
to a catch position and start your body rotating to the
opposite hip.

Here's a photo with caption from the "Kick in the skating
position" drill section in "Freestyle Made Easy", (c) Terry
Laughlin 2001:

shorl.comgykydibrenidroOpen ↗

It specifically says to keep the palm facing down. However,
the drill before it has the option of keeping the palm of
the outstretched arm "up, down or sideways". Also, I
remember seeing footage of Terry swimming, and where he
comments on his palm facing up when reaching forwards, but I
can't remember where I saw that, and whether he said it was
a flaw or not.

/Par

Haim Guivon said:

I read: according to the published study of Yanai and Hay,
40% of impingement occurs during recovery, 40% at entry,
and only 20% at pull through.

I want to try to have my pinky pointing down during
recovery and entry, ...

Yes

Quoted message said:

... and actually also during the pull through,

I doubt you're going to push/pull much water with your pinky
down. I think there has to be some impingement during the
pulling part of the stroke.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

Adrienne Binder? I watched her racing last week at the JEI
and I counted her strokes. 42-43 for 50M, just like all
other swimmers. I am not sure you can call her a TI swimmer
in her race.

Yes, I have all 4 TI tapes and she appeared in some of them
as a 11-12 years old swimmer with beautiful strokes.

TI is part of the story. If you really want to learn free
style, there is a tape called "What is the limit?" about
Aleksandr Popov and a DVD just came out about Ian Thorpe
named "Beneath the suit". They are very good instruction
tapes from the best.

Hugo

Ross Bogue <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<rbogue-
[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (ronenta)

Question:

Quoted message said:

So the bottom line is I guess, would you say that the
TI freestyle is a good model to go by?

A good model? Of course! Terry Laughlin is pushing 60 and
competes in open water ultra marathons. If you could swim
like him, I'd say you were doing well.

For that matter, the closest person to being the TI poster
child would be Adrienne Binder. She's an Olympic hopeful
in the 800 free. If you could swim like her, I'd certainly
say you were doing well.

If you compare videos of Terry and Adrienne, you'll notice
that they don't look alike. (Well, besides the obvious.
:-) They have each adjusted their styles to suit their own
needs. Are either of their styles the best for you? Maybe,
maybe not. The only way to find out is to experiment.

Ross

I am starting to get the idea. Thinking about it, I feel
that the culprit of my shoulder pain is the backstroke,
where I enter the water pinky down above the head (there
is no other way to catch water, I think). If I could I
find a way to minimize impingement in this style, I'd be
happy, because backstroke is wonderful to keep a nice
standing posture.

Otherwise I'll discontinue using backstroke till the
pain subsides.

Thanks for any comment,

haim

===============================================

"Donal Fagan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Haim Guivon said:

I read: according to the published study of Yanai and
Hay, 40% of impingement occurs during recovery, 40% at
entry, and only 20% at pull through.

I want to try to have my pinky pointing down during
recovery and entry, ...

Yes

Quoted message said:

... and actually also during the pull through,

I doubt you're going to push/pull much water with your
pinky down. I think there has to be some impingement
during the pulling part of the stroke.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

Haim Guivon said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am starting to get the idea. Thinking about it, I feel
that the culprit of my shoulder pain is the backstroke,
where I enter the water pinky down above the head (there
is no other way to catch water, I think). If I could I
find a way to minimize impingement in this style, I'd be
happy, because backstroke is wonderful to keep a nice
standing posture.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The more you roll over, the less you'll have to twist your
hand, but it requires a very decisive roll from one side to
the other during recovery. Otherwise you'll be waiting at
the end of recovery to finish your roll before hand entry.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

"Donal Fagan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Haim Guivon said:

Quoted message said:

>

I am starting to get the idea. Thinking about it, I feel
that the culprit of my shoulder pain is the backstroke,
where I enter the water pinky down above the head (there
is no other way to catch water, I think). If I could I
find a way to minimize impingement in this style, I'd be
happy, because backstroke is wonderful to keep a nice
standing posture.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

The more you roll over, the less you'll have to twist
your hand, but it requires a very decisive roll from one
side to the other during recovery. Otherwise you'll be
waiting at the end of recovery to finish your roll before
hand entry.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

I see. Your insights have been most useful. I must improve
my technique, specially learn to roll over. It'll be
difficult after many years of doing it the wrong way (almost
not rolling over at all). I understand better now shoulder
anatomy and mechanics. In any case I'll get a better view of
the world and its beauties staring at the pool sides during
roll over. :-).

Thanks a lot.

haim

====================================================

[email hidden] (Par Svensson) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (4precious) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Terry Laughlin says very little about exact arm
positions during the strokes. It's not his deal. He's
into balanced, streamlined swimming while trying to
generate as much power as possible from the rotation of
the hips.

Having said that, some of his videos depict swimmers
kicking across the poool in a "side-balance" position
with palm of the out-stretched hand facing the bottom of
the pool. This is certainly a position you should AVOID.
If you do such drills, keep your palm pointed to the
side of the pool, thumb up. Rotate your hand down only
as you go to a catch position and start your body
rotating to the opposite hip.

Here's a photo with caption from the "Kick in the skating
position" drill section in "Freestyle Made Easy", (c)
Terry Laughlin 2001:

shorl.comgykydibrenidroOpen ↗

It specifically says to keep the palm facing down.
However, the drill before it has the option of keeping the
palm of the outstretched arm "up, down or sideways". Also,
I remember seeing footage of Terry swimming, and where he
comments on his palm facing up when reaching forwards, but
I can't remember where I saw that, and whether he said it
was a flaw or not.

/Par

Well while you are waiting for Terry to come down from the
mountain with the stone tablets and let you know that the
final word is "up, down or sideways", do your yourself and
your shoulders a favor and don't point your thumbs at the
bottom of the pool. 🙂

Eric