Protein during exercise

Its in endurox and accelerade - great prods I've been using
for a few years. And yea seems to make a difference...

Phil M. wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

I came across this article at poweringmuscles.c-poweringmuscles.c-Open ↗
om/mountainbiking.asp?article_number=1

According to this study, protein during exercise may have
substantial benefits. The article doesn't state how long
the cyclists exercised to get to the exhaustion state. Is
anyone taking some protein during long runs or hard
training runs?

snipped key points:

"powerful evidence that consuming a modest amount of
protein in a sports drink during exercise can increase
endurance, reduce muscle damage, and enhance recovery."

"Fifteen male cyclists completed a stationary ride to
exhaustion while drinking either a conventional sports
drink containing 7.3% carbohydrate or a sports drink
containing an equal amount of carbohydrate plus 1.8%
protein."

"On average, the subjects were able to cycle 29% longer in
the first ride and 40% longer in the second ride when given
the carbohydrate-protein drink during the first ride than
they were when given the drink without protein. In
addition, the carbohydrate-protein drink was found to
reduce CPK levels by 83%, indicating significantly less
muscle damage."

"the additional calories in the former could account for no
more than 12% of the differences in performance. Also,
scientists have long known that simply adding more
carbohydrate to a sports drink does not make it more
effective. There seems to be a special synergy between
carbohydrate and protein."

Phil M.

--
"I gotta go. You're killin' me."

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I came across this article at poweringmuscles.-poweringmuscles.-Open ↗
com/mountainbiking.asp?article_number=1

According to this study, protein during exercise may have
substantial benefits. The article doesn't state how long
the cyclists exercised to get to the exhaustion state. Is
anyone taking some protein during long runs or hard
training runs?

I always drink a recovery drink with protein and some fat
as well. I like the Boost-type ones.It's always seemed
obvious to me that sugar and water (Gatorade, etc) isn't as
good of a deal.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see putting other people
down constantly."

Phil M. said:

I came across this article at poweringmuscles.-poweringmuscles.-Open ↗
com/mountainbiking.asp?article_number=1

Is anyone taking some protein during long runs or hard
training runs?

yes (clip) although more likely to use something with amino
acids and no fat (cytomax) at this point for hard efforts
like my xt class. I used to use watered-down endurox post-
exercise but prefer slim-fast (if I'll be an hr or more
getting home) or milk (home) now. And I've got an envelope
of Accelerade waiting for testing.

Were you able to find the citation of this "remarkable new
study"? I tried browsing the TOC's of the last several years
of July issues of Medicine and Science in Sports and
Exerices without luck - but I may have overlooked it. I
noticed the copyright on the web page was 2002-2003, and the
July issue for 2004 isn't out yet. It does sound more recent
than the Texas studies that Burke used and at least
mentioned the issue of more cals in the protein, carb drink
than in carb-only drink. But I'm still curious what they
used for their comparisons (controls).

I did notice the page is sponsored by the makers of
Acclerade and Endurox, which is why I was looking for
original literature.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Let this be a lesson to ya maties, especially you Donovan,
don't swallow before a race. I know you love to, so save it
for your post race celebration.

Quoted message said:

I came across this article at
poweringmuscles.commountainbiking.aspOpen ↗

Thanks for the research article.

The idea has been around for quite a few years, but it good
to see supporting research.

Gleshna - Multi-Thousandaire

DA LAKES: Da Lake Tube:
greatlakesurfing.compoint.jpgOpen ↗ Da
new Lake Movie: unsalted.tvunsalted.tvOpen ↗ Da Bears ???????

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I came across this article at poweringmuscles.-poweringmuscles.-Open ↗
com/mountainbiking.asp?article_number=1

Thanks for the replies. So this is nothing new. It's just
more supporting evidence. The article is not clear as to
how long an exercise session has to be for added protein to
be of some benefit. The Succeed! site seems to suggest
ultra race type distances or 6+ hours. Can anyone clarify
this for me?

Phil M.

--
"I gotta go. You're killin' me."

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I came across this article at

poweringmuscles.commountainbiking.aspOpen ↗
e_number=1

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the replies. So this is nothing new. It's
just more

supporting

Quoted message said:

evidence. The article is not clear as to how long an
exercise

session has

Quoted message said:

to be for added protein to be of some benefit. The
Succeed! site

seems to

Quoted message said:

suggest ultra race type distances or 6+ hours. Can
anyone clarify

this for

Quoted message said:

me?

I can only be anecdotal. I use CLIP for all my runs and
races of more than 3 hours. I can get by with only water for
under three hours. Clip was designed to be more than just
another sport drink, but a liquid food. SUCCEED!Ultra is
their sport drink so to speak, but made from maltodextrin.
From the web page, " It contains easily digested
carbohydrate for muscle fuel, Branched Chain Amino Acids and
protein to preserve the athlete's muscle, and Medium Chain
Triglyceride to provide energy from fat, and stabilize the
digestive tract."

One of the most common problems in ultra races is too many
carbs and then experiencing a highly acidic stomach. When
you stomach goes south and you can't or don't feel like
eating or drinking, break out the body bag. Others can't eat
much or any whole food and Clip serves that function. It
works for me and from reading the ultra forum many use it
successfully. I have no financial interest but I am guilty
of being friends with the guy that makes it.

-DougF

Phil M. said:

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I came across this article at poweringmuscles-poweringmuscles-Open ↗
.com/mountainbiking.asp?article_number=1

I *think* (no guarantee) this is an abstract of a
presentation by the same group of authors (different study,
but it's the same journal and authors are from James Madison
University), but haven't tracked down the full journal
article of the paper referred to in your original link.
(I've got a few choice words for web pages that refer to
journal articles but give neither the authors, date, nor
title.) I'm assuming the protocols *may* be similar, but may
not be. (I know I do similar studies but may change
protocols to focus on a particular hypothesis.)

tinyurl.com2b3elOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the replies. So this is nothing new. It's just
more supporting evidence.

Yep, it's been discussed before including the 1:4
protein:carb ratio that pops up every so often. But it's
good to rehash things since ideas come up and people
experiment and come back with new observations the next time
it pops up.

Quoted message said:

The article is not clear as to how long an exercise session
has to be for added protein to be of some benefit.

Nor is it clear on intensity of exercise ("to exhaustion"
doesn't provide a clue) or on type of carb (simple, complex)
or type of protein (whey, casein). The abstract may provide
approximate clues on the intensity and duration, but looks
like exact contents of drink will have to be reaped from the
original paper.

I'm assuming by "benefit" you mean something like is quoted
on the web page ("modest amount of protein in a sports drink
during exercise can increase endurance, reduce muscle
damage, and enhance recovery"😉 vs improved speed or
something like that.

Quoted message said:

The Succeed! site seems to suggest ultra race type
distances or 6+ hours. Can anyone clarify this for me?

Assuming the above type benefits (as opposed to increased
speed), I would assume with workouts on the order of 1-2
hr, but I think it depends on the person (esp. ability to
process protein at certain effort levels), temperature
(e.g. 90F vs -20F), prior training, recovery, etc. You'll
note that all 3 of Succeed's sports drinks are listed for
general training.

FWIW, a lot of my fuelling trials and philosophy dates back
about 2 yr to some comments that Mike T. made about IM
training tinyurl.com2ktu2Open ↗ (when I had misjudged some
things after a race with another race 2.5 days later, and
these were only my 2nd and 3rd races. Note: I learn
quickly.). While you're doing one workout, you're already
recovering for the next. That is, stay hydrated and fueled.
The issue isn't whether you can run for 2 hr without fluid
(unless you're testing that), but rather what to drink to
minimize recovery.

My anecdotal data (for whatever a beginner's observations
are worth). I don't usually carry fluid for <1 hr, unless
it's obnoxiously hot since I'm seldom heat adapted. If I'm
expecting it to be hard (either effort-wise or pounding-
wise, like the plyometrics in my xt class, about 1.5 hr),
I'll tend to use cytomax (I tend to believe web pages and
benefits of things if they provide numbers. I'm also
gullible. Has amino acids and electrolytes) If it's just an
easy run < 1.5-2 hr, I've used Ultra (has electrolytes,
complex carbs, but no protein or amino acids). If I'm going
to be out for >2 hr, I generally use Clip. In warm weather,
though, I would need electrolytes in addition to it -
actually with any drink. I've just used wheat thins in the
past, but just got some electrolyte capsules.

Part of my reasoning is that Ultra is much cheaper than the
others. Cytomax, when bought on sale by the 4.5 lb can, is
somewhere between Ultra and Clip 2, costwise. I started
using Clip 2 before I needed it since I'm not a raspberry
fan and wanted to see if I could even tolerate it on shorter
runs before I depended on it for long runs. I tend to do
this with all my training (test longer-run techniques on
short runs), so that when I'm increasing duration, the only
thing I'm increasing is duration - not a change in fluids or
camelbak or taping or foot treatment (vaseline or not) for
wet days, etc. But that's just me.

I definitely noticed a positive difference when I switched
from water or gatorade to cytomax (1st of my non-grocery
store fluids) - even around 1 hr. Since my runs are so
variable with conditions, they're not all that long yet, and
I'm still making beginners' gains, I can't say that I see a
real difference between Ultra, Cytomax (prefer this over
ultra for xt class), and Clip 2, hence the decision based on
cost. But I do know I need electrolytes on hot days (and why
I hadn't planned on using it for my race that was
cancelled). The slim-fast and milk products are basic -
which is why I started using them for recovery (will
probably use slim-fast during long runs in a couple years) -
but they also provide casein as well as the more common whey
protein. From some of the reading I've done, I've gotten the
impression that fats (Clip 2) are used more in cold weather
(like Alaska winter cold), which is another reason I might
tweak differently than others here. There's always a basis
for my weirdness 😉 (At least now there is. Before it used
to just happen.)

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is anyone taking some protein during long runs or hard
training runs?

yes (clip) although more likely to use something with amino
acids and no fat (cytomax) at this point for hard efforts
like my xt class. I used to use watered-down endurox post-
exercise but prefer slim-fast (if I'll be an hr or more
getting home) or milk (home) now. And I've got an envelope
of Accelerade waiting for testing.

Were you able to find the citation of this "remarkable new
study"? I tried browsing the TOC's of the last several
years of July issues of Medicine and Science in Sports and
Exerices without luck - but I may have overlooked it. I
noticed the copyright on the web page was 2002-2003, and
the July issue for 2004 isn't out yet. It does sound more
recent than the Texas studies that Burke used and at least
mentioned the issue of more cals in the protein, carb drink
than in carb-only drink. But I'm still curious what they
used for their comparisons (controls).

I did notice the page is sponsored by the makers of
Acclerade and Endurox, which is why I was looking for
original literature.

Dot

mmmooooooooooooo....

This one, I think is not good news for the makers of
"scientific" recovery drinks:

"Metabolic response to provision of mixed protein-
carbohydrate supplementation during endurance exercise.

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2002 Dec;12(4):384-97 Miller
SL; Maresh CM; Armstrong LE; Ebbeling CB; Lennon S;
Rodriguez NR Department of Nutritional Sciences, University
of Connecticut, Storrs, CT 06269, USA.

The interaction of substrates and hormones in response to
ingestion of intact proteins during endurance exercise is
unknown. This study characterized substrate and hormone
responses to supplementation during endurance exercise. Nine
male runners participated in 3 trials in which a non-fat
(MILK), carbohydrate (CHO), or placebo (PLA) drink was
consumed during a 2-hour treadmill run at 65% VO2max.
Circulating levels of insulin, glucagon, epinephrine,
norepinephrine, growth hormone, testosterone, and cortisol
were measured. Plasma substrates included glucose, lactate,
free fatty acids, and select amino acids. Except for insulin
and cortisol, hormones increased with exercise. While post-
exercise insulin concentrations declined similarly in all 3
trials, the glucagon increase was greatest following MILK
consumption. CHO blunted the post-exercise increase in
growth hormone compared to levels in
MILK. Free fatty acids and plasma amino acids also were
responsive to nutritional supplementation with both
CHO and MILK attenuating the rise in free fatty acids
compared to the increase observed in PLA.
Correspondingly, respiratory exchange ratio increased
during CHO. Essential amino acids increased
significantly only after MILK and were either
unchanged or decreased in CHO. PLA was characterized
by a decrease in branched-chain amino acid
concentrations. Modest nutritional supplementation in
this study altered the endocrine response as well as
substrate availability and utilization following and
during an endurance run, respectively."

This one is prior research, that used 7.75%/1.94% for
CHO/Protein. The cycling time here was 3 hours @ 45-75%
VO2max, and the times to exhaustion were 12.7 min (placebo),
19.7 (cho only), and 26.9 min (cho + protein)

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2003 Sep;13(3):382-95 Ivy
JL; Res PT; Sprague RC; Widzer MO Department of
Kinesiology and Health Education, The University of
Texas, Austin, TX

Also note that research findings concerning cho/protein
feeding during exercise for specifically running (most
papers are for cycling) are very limited. Given the data
that is out there, I'm in the milk camp (Starbucks
doubleshot before exercise or cappocino during a workout--
if I can handle this), and I stay away from direct cho
intake until after the workout to maximize the effect on
growth hormone.

Lyndon

"Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US
Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

Lyndon said:

mmmooooooooooooo....

This one, I think is not good news for the makers of
"scientific" recovery drinks:

Thanks for the citations and abstracts. That provides some
primary literature for some things I'd seen elsewhere.

Actually, I'll bet many people will continue to use the
chemical cocktails because that's what gets plastered in
front of their faces on ads, and I'll bet it's a small
percentage that reads the scientific literature (or
interpretations thereof, like RRN or PP). Until I started
reading RRN, I know I had never thought of milk as a
recovery drink, but since then have seen it many places in
that context.

Quoted message said:

Also note that research findings concerning cho/protein
feeding during exercise for specifically running (most
papers are for cycling) are very limited.

ok, thanks. Cycling probably easier to measure outputs on.

Given

Quoted message said:

the data that is out there, I'm in the milk camp
(Starbucks doubleshot before exercise or cappocino during
a workout--if I can handle this), and I stay away from
direct cho intake until after the workout to maximize the
effect on growth hormone.

ok, thanks.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

My problem with these study methodologies is that they are
not real world. When is there a race where the object is to
ride (or run) to exhaustion.

Part of the answer to the question below is that the
additional energy from adding protein to the mix added some
endurance. The studies really need to be done with
isocaloric beverages (that is both having the same amount of
energy). In the CHO+PRO, the energy content of this drink is
greater than just the CHO drink.

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I came across this article at poweringmuscles.-poweringmuscles.-Open ↗
com/mountainbiking.asp?article_number=1

According to this study, protein during exercise may have
substantial benefits. The article doesn't state how long
the cyclists exercised to get to the exhaustion state. Is
anyone taking some protein during long runs or hard
training runs?

snipped key points:

"powerful evidence that consuming a modest amount of
protein in a sports drink during exercise can increase
endurance, reduce muscle damage, and enhance recovery."

"Fifteen male cyclists completed a stationary ride to
exhaustion while drinking either a conventional sports
drink containing 7.3% carbohydrate or a sports drink
containing an equal amount of carbohydrate plus 1.8%
protein."

"On average, the subjects were able to cycle 29% longer in
the first ride and 40% longer in the second ride when
given the carbohydrate-protein drink during the first ride
than they were when given the drink without protein. In
addition, the carbohydrate-protein drink was found to
reduce CPK levels by 83%, indicating significantly less
muscle damage."

"the additional calories in the former could account for
no more than 12% of the differences in performance. Also,
scientists have long known that simply adding more
carbohydrate to a sports drink does not make it more
effective. There seems to be a special synergy between
carbohydrate and protein."

Phil M.

--
"I gotta go. You're killin' me."

"Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"On average, the subjects were able to cycle 29% longer in
the first ride and 40% longer in the second ride when
given the carbohydrate-protein drink during the first ride
than they were when given the drink without protein.

Oh, would that it were true...that changing your sports
drink would have the same effect as increasing your base
mileage by 30 miles/week....

I've done a head-to-head comparison of Cytomax (CHO +
ginseng) and Accelerade (CHO + 25% of calories from
whey protein).

The run is a 20 mile out-and-back climb up Mt. Wilson. 5,000
feet of climb. Best time to the top with Cytomax: 2:00:20.
Best time with Accelerade:
2:03:30.

Effort: The uphill is run mostly at 155 pulse (79% max hr),
and drifts up to 165 to 170 pulse in the last 30 minutes
above 4500' elevation (84% max to 89% max).

The downhill times are similar. This is expected since
downhill is mostly technique and my heart rate stays around
or below 140 even at a 6:40 pace down the mountain.

Quoted message said:

In addition, the carbohydrate-protein drink was found to
reduce CPK levels by 83%, indicating significantly less
muscle damage."

Now this one gets thinking...muscle damage, or speed? Can I
get back to you on that? Actually, I eat protein and fat
when racing ultras, so I race with a pretty normal mix of
nutrients.

-- Dan

Dan Stumpus said:

I've done a head-to-head comparison of Cytomax (CHO +
ginseng) and Accelerade (CHO + 25% of calories from whey
protein).

The run is a 20 mile out-and-back climb up Mt. Wilson.
5,000 feet of climb. Best time to the top with Cytomax:
2:00:20. Best time with Accelerade:
2:03:30.

Does this mean I don't have to test the Accelerade in my
closet? 😉 (I keep putting it off remembering how bad
Endurox tasted to me originally.)

Did you clone yourself for the head-to-head? 😉

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sam said:

My problem with these study methodologies is that they are
not real world. When is there a race where the object is to
ride (or run) to exhaustion.

For these purposes, what constitutes 'exhaustion'?

When I race 5k and up (er, race _well_), I certainly don't
cross the finish line with much left. But that doesn't
seem to be the sort of 'exhaustion' that's meant.

[snipped]
--
Robert Grumbine radix.net~bobgOpen ↗ Science faqs and
amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo
Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less
appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a
more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

"Dot" <dot.h@#att.net> wrote

Quoted message said:

Does this mean I don't have to test the Accelerade in my
closet? 😉 (I keep putting it off remembering how bad
Endurox tasted to me originally.)

I forgot to mention that the Accelerade goes down nicely. My
stomach also feels better with Accelerade. I just don't run
quite as fast...maybe it's the Ginseng in the Cytomax (a
mild stimulant).

Quoted message said:

Did you clone yourself for the head-to-head? 😉

Good catch; I forgot to mention that the two of me ran that
run together...

-- Dan
----
I always like to know everything about my new friends, and
nothing about my old ones. --Oscar Wilde

Races typically are to cover a set distance as fast as
possible, not to run at a given pace for as long as you can.
That might be a strategy to achieve the goal.

One might argue even that the goal of a race is merely to
beat everyone else and that the time does not matter.

Many exercise science studies want to know about
"endurance" so they have a person run or ride at some
percentage of VO2max for as long as they can. Not real life
even in training.

"Robert Grumbine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Sam said:

My problem with these study methodologies is that they
are not real

world.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When is there a race where the object is to ride (or run)
to exhaustion.

For these purposes, what constitutes 'exhaustion'?

When I race 5k and up (er, race _well_), I certainly
don't cross the finish line with much left. But that
doesn't seem to be the sort of 'exhaustion' that's
meant.

[snipped]
--
Robert Grumbine radix.net~bobgOpen ↗ Science faqs
and amateur

activities notes and links.

Quoted message said:

Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite
matters with too

much

Quoted message said:

evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less
appreciated than

they

Quoted message said:

would be had they been presented in a more abstruse
manner." Two New

Sciences