Broken Collar Bone

Quoted message said:

Amazing how much can change in a fraction of a second. Wish
I had a do-over.

So sorry to heear of your accident.

I do hope all goes well and you can make your trip!

Never broken anything except my big toe, so my experience is
of little help.

Good luck and best wishes.

members.aol.comfoxcondorsrvtnsOpen ↗ (Colorado
rental condo)

members.aol.comdnvrfoxOpen ↗ (Family Web Page)

X-No-Archive: Yes

Chuck Anderson said:

Does anyone here have any advice or experience to relate?
Should I hold out hope for a cycling camping trip in July?
(My Lufthansa ticket *is* restricted, but they said I can
get a full refund with a medical certificate.) Any therapy
I should consider?

Broke my collarbones 3 times. One of those I flew two days
later, not that I was free ofpain butso it goes. You should
be more comfortable after a week or two, and I expect you're
younger than i was.

--
"The web has got me caught. I'd rather have the blues than what I've
got." <via Nat King Cole

Sorry I don't have any advice. I've never had a broken bone.
My youngest daughter did break a collar bone when she was a
teenager and I don't remember it keeping her from too many
activities. Hopefully you'll have the same experience.

Hope it heals soon and you can do the trip.

Beverly

"Chuck Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:%D8tc.116868$536.21977098@attbi_s03...

Quoted message said:

I don't know why, but I never anticipated injuring myself
so severely. Last Friday I was riding too aggressively,
hammering away when I pegged the inside pedal on a tight
curve (I was pedaling - du-uh) and crashed hard. I broke
my left collar bone (broke the last inch or so right off.)

And wouldn't you know, just a few days earlier I had
purchased my plane ticket to Frankfurt (depart July 5 -
return July 27). Now I don't know if I'll be able to make
that trip. They way I feel today (5 days later), arm in a
sling and still feeling very very very tender and
sensitive, it seems unlikely.

I've heard it could take anything from 4 weeks to 4 months
to heal. And even if I do heal enough to ride (July 5 is
still 5 ½ weeks a way), I don't know if I would be ready
to sleep on the ground in my tent. The Emergency Room doc
said 4 - 6 weeks. Some online searches have indicated it
could be months.

The doctor said that there was nothing that should be done
for the break (other than immobilize my arm in a sling).
The collar bone is the most "mendable" bone in the body,
and the two pieces of bone will find their way back
together and mend on their own. It seems odd, but all
research I've done indicated that is so.

Does anyone here have any advice or experience to relate?
Should I hold out hope for a cycling camping trip in July?
(My Lufthansa ticket *is* restricted, but they said I can
get a full refund with a medical certificate.) Any therapy
I should consider?

Amazing how much can change in a fraction of a second.
Wish I had a

do-over.

Quoted message said:

(I am seeing an orthopedic doctor on Friday, so hopefully
he can tell me more.)

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO cycletourist.comcycletourist.comOpen ↗
Integrity is obvious. The lack of it is common.
*****************************

Norm said:

X-No-Archive: Yes Chuck Anderson said:

Does anyone here have any advice or experience to relate?
Should I hold out hope for a cycling camping trip in July?
(My Lufthansa ticket *is* restricted, but they said I can
get a full refund with a medical certificate.) Any therapy
I should consider?

Broke my collarbones 3 times. One of those I flew two days
later, not that I was free of pain but so it goes. You
should be more comfortable after a week or two, and I
expect you're younger than i was.

I was trying to avoid that issue. Let's just say that I'm in
the first half of my fifties. I'm in pretty good shape,
though, and on the young side for my age (good genes).

I know I wouldn't want to be flying anywhere just quite yet
(even a ride in the car can get too bumpy). I still look
forward to those couple of Vicodins later at night to
eliminate that deep aching. ("I like Vike." .... ... could
give away my age - if you know what that's from.)

It's nice to hear encouraging words. Thanks. I've only ever
sprained an ankle and a wrist. Broke my thumb at about age
10 (in of all things a bike accident - of sorts). This
feels traumatic - and feeling (even seeing) the end of that
broken bone is a little creepy. Watching someone take a
body slam in a movie or TV show makes me cringe inside out
- - - owwwwww!

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO cycletourist.comcycletourist.comOpen ↗
Integrity is obvious. The lack of it is common.
*****************************

2.5 years and my collar bone is healed about 50%. For most
of that time, it had only healed 20%. My non-union is
fairly rare, but it was the last 1" of bone, just like
yours. From what I understand, collar bone non-unions are
less rare when you get out near the end like that. I had
to use two different electro-stimulation units to help
bone growth.

' hope your recovery goes better than mine.

-Bob

Chuck Anderson said:

I don't know why, but I never anticipated injuring myself
so severely.
Last Friday I was riding too aggressively, hammering away
when I pegged
the inside pedal on a tight curve (I was pedaling - du-uh)
and crashed
hard. I broke my left collar bone (broke the last inch or
so right off.)

And wouldn't you know, just a few days earlier I had
purchased my plane ticket to Frankfurt (depart July 5 -
return July 27). Now I don't know if I'll be able to make
that trip. They way I feel today (5 days later), arm in a
sling and still feeling very very very tender and
sensitive, it seems unlikely.

I've heard it could take anything from 4 weeks to 4 months
to heal. And even if I do heal enough to ride (July 5 is
still 5 =BD weeks a way), I don't know if I would be ready
to sleep on the ground in my tent. The Emergency Room doc
said 4 - 6 weeks. Some online searches have indicated it
could be months.

The doctor said that there was nothing that should be done
for the break (other than immobilize my arm in a sling).
The collar bone is the most "mendable" bone in the body,
and the two pieces of bone will find their way back
together and mend on their own. It seems odd, but all
research I've done indicated that is so.

You should have a figure 8 brace that pulls your shoulders
back, With out that, the collarbone will heal short and your
shoulder will be pulled forward.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone here have any advice or experience to relate?
Should I hold out hope for a cycling camping trip in July?
(My Lufthansa ticket *is* restricted, but they said I can
get a full refund with a medical certificate.) Any therapy
I should consider?

Go ahead and do your tour!

I broke my left collarbone - in two places about 2" apart -
eight year ago next week - on Memorial Day - on the first
day of my first cross country ride. I was in Oregon, and
planned to ride back to North Carolina. The Dr said wear
this figure eight brace and in three or four months you'll
be fine. I said 'What a way to waste a summer!"

I broke my collarbone on Monday. On Wednesday I rigged my
bike so I could shift the front derailleur with my right
hand - thumb shifter - and use the front brake with my right
hand. I also took off my aerobars - no way I could use them!-
and raised the handlebars level with the seat. It was
painful working on my bike, but I managed. On Friday I
continued my trip across the country. There were several
painful moments on the ride, but I think I probably hurt
much less than I would have if I abandoned my trip. I camped
several times in the first few weeks. I was a challenge
putting up my tent, but sleeping was OK. I had to sleep on
my back all summer and for several months into the fall.
Other than that, I was able to use my left arm fairly
normally after I finished my tour <grin>.

See
cs.unca.educrossusa.htmlOpen ↗
for the ride report.

=09Mark <http://www.cs.unca.edu/~boyd/bicycling.html>

PS Tomorrow I fly to Portland and Saturday through Monday
I'll be visiting the folks who helped me when I broke
my collarbone. This will be the fourth time I've been
in Dallas Oregon by bicycle. Well, the first time I
arrived in an ambulance, but I left, four days later,
on my bicycle.

Chuck Anderson <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:%D8tc.116868$536.21977098@attbi_s03:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone here have any advice or experience to relate?
Should I hold out hope for a cycling camping trip in July?
(My Lufthansa ticket *is* restricted, but they said I can
get a full refund with a medical certificate.) Any therapy
I should consider?

I found that I could ride gingerly after about 4 weeks and
progress was swift from there on....you have roughly 5 1/2,
tough decision.

Chuck Anderson said:

I don't know why, but I never anticipated injuring myself
so severely.
Last Friday I was riding too aggressively, hammering away
when I pegged
the inside pedal on a tight curve (I was pedaling - du-uh)
and crashed
hard. I broke my left collar bone (broke the last inch or
so right off.)

And wouldn't you know, just a few days earlier I had
purchased my plane ticket to Frankfurt (depart July 5 -
return July 27). Now I don't know if I'll be able to make
that trip. They way I feel today (5 days later), arm in a
sling and still feeling very very very tender and
sensitive, it seems unlikely.

I've heard it could take anything from 4 weeks to 4 months
to heal. And even if I do heal enough to ride (July 5 is
still 5 ½ weeks a way), I don't know if I would be ready
to sleep on the ground in my tent. The Emergency Room doc
said 4 - 6 weeks. Some online searches have indicated it
could be months.

The doctor said that there was nothing that should be done
for the break (other than immobilize my arm in a sling).
The collar bone is the most "mendable" bone in the body,
and the two pieces of bone will find their way back
together and mend on their own. It seems odd, but all
research I've done indicated that is so.

Does anyone here have any advice or experience to relate?
Should I hold out hope for a cycling camping trip in July?
(My Lufthansa ticket *is* restricted, but they said I can
get a full refund with a medical certificate.) Any therapy
I should consider?

Amazing how much can change in a fraction of a second.
Wish I had a do-over.

(I am seeing an orthopedic doctor on Friday, so hopefully
he can tell me more.)

Sorry to hear about my accident. My wife came off her bike
and broke her left collarbone last August, probably even
closer to the end than you. She had surgery to put a plate
into it. (Search on google for clavicle hook plate.) She was
running (slowly) within 7 days and we went on holiday after
3 weeks. We were cycling on steep alpine roads and tracks
and she was fine apart from a slight miscomfort after long
descents. She's a bit younger than you and the surgery may
not be an option for you but it does suggest that the injury
need not stop your holiday.

The orthopaedic specialist will undoubtedly be able to
consider all your options.
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He had delusions of
adequacy." - Walter Kerr www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

I have broken two of them, one on each side. The first
healed rather quickly, 6 weeks, the other took forever, 6
mos. Once the soft tissue damage heals, within a week, you
should feel much more comfortable. As sugggested, get a
figure 8 strap, the sooner the better. You will feel much
more comfortable. As far as riding, the doctor warned me
against it saying if I crash I could make matters much
worse. However, he did say that riding itself would do
nothing. Good luck

Jim

Chuck Anderson <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<%D8tc.116868$536.21977098@attbi_s03>...

Quoted message said:

I don't know why, but I never anticipated injuring myself
so severely. Last Friday I was riding too aggressively,
hammering away when I pegged the inside pedal on a tight
curve (I was pedaling - du-uh) and crashed hard. I broke
my left collar bone (broke the last inch or so right off.)

And wouldn't you know, just a few days earlier I had
purchased my plane ticket to Frankfurt (depart July 5 -
return July 27). Now I don't know if I'll be able to make
that trip. They way I feel today (5 days later), arm in a
sling and still feeling very very very tender and
sensitive, it seems unlikely.

I've heard it could take anything from 4 weeks to 4 months
to heal. And even if I do heal enough to ride (July 5 is
still 5 ½ weeks a way), I don't know if I would be ready
to sleep on the ground in my tent. The Emergency Room doc
said 4 - 6 weeks. Some online searches have indicated it
could be months.

The doctor said that there was nothing that should be done
for the break (other than immobilize my arm in a sling).
The collar bone is the most "mendable" bone in the body,
and the two pieces of bone will find their way back
together and mend on their own. It seems odd, but all
research I've done indicated that is so.

Does anyone here have any advice or experience to relate?
Should I hold out hope for a cycling camping trip in July?
(My Lufthansa ticket *is* restricted, but they said I can
get a full refund with a medical certificate.) Any therapy
I should consider?

Amazing how much can change in a fraction of a second.
Wish I had a do-over.

(I am seeing an orthopedic doctor on Friday, so hopefully
he can tell me more.)

Watching someone

Quoted message said:

take a body slam in a movie or TV show makes me cringe
inside out - - - owwwwww!

I know what you mean. I sprained an ACL a couple of years
ago skiing and now it's fine - except that it hurts when I'm
watching a football game and someone twists their knee....

Anyway, can't give you specific advice for the collerbone,
but I found for my knee that it helped to have a good sports-
medicine orthopedist (mine had previous experience with
professional baseball and football teams). If you need
physical therapy, find a PT that is into sports-medicine.

Hope you heal fast and can get back on the bike soon.

Janet

Chuck,

Ask your doc if calcium supplements will help. Probably
couldn't hurt. From what I've read, there is NO benefit from
calcium supplements being made from oyster shell, egg shell
or even emotional shell.

Tom Dillon Lakewood, CO Z to S for email.

Chuck Anderson said:

.... I broke my left collar bone (broke the last inch or
so right off.)

And wouldn't you know, just a few days earlier I had
purchased my plane ticket to Frankfurt (depart July 5 -
return July 27). Now I don't know if I'll be able to make
that trip. They way I feel today (5 days later), arm in a
sling and still feeling very very very tender and
sensitive, it seems unlikely.

I've heard it could take anything from 4 weeks to 4 months
to heal. And

I guess I was lucky, although I didn't think so at the
time. Crashed my bike (it involved a chasing dog). Two
bent wheels, one broken clavicle and road rash. The ER
doctor just took an X-ray, put on a figure-8 bandage and
said it would take 3 or 4 weeks to heal. The most painful
days were in the first week - rolling over the wrong way
in bed really hurt!

The figure-8 bandage didn't restrict motion very much.
Amazing
that it holds the bone in place! I could use my left hand
for light work.

After about 2 weeks it felt much better. I waited 4
weeks before a return visit to a doctor for checkup-
maybe it would have been OK after 3 weeks. I hadn't
looked at my bike in 4 weeks, then it took a week to get
the wheels fixed. 5 weeks after the crash I went on a
100 km ride. The hardest things were carrying my bike (
up a flight of stairs to my apartment) and using a hand
pump- fortunately I didn't get any flat tires the next
few weeks!

In 4 weeks I had turned into a "couch potato"!
Fortunately, I walked about 4 km a day to work, shopping
etc, so that saved my legs. It was amazing how much my
left arm muscles atrophied. It took months to build up
that arm again. I probably should have done some mild
exercises.

I'm not sure if taking calcium supplements and vitamin D
will speed healing of bone.

I can still feel a little bump in my left clavicle, 30
years later. Somewhere I think I read that the bone may
actually become thicker and stronger after healing!

I'm sure I've heard about pro hockey players breaking
clavicles and playing games the next day!- probably pro
bike racers too!

With luck you should be OK by July 5.

--

David Dermott , Wolfville Ridge, Nova Scotia, Canada email:
[email hidden] WWW pages:
www3.ns.sympatico.cadermottOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

hard. I broke my left collar bone (broke the last inch or
so right off.)

And wouldn't you know, just a few days earlier I had
purchased my plane ticket to Frankfurt (depart July 5 -
return July 27). Now I don't know The doctor said that
there was nothing that should be done for the break
(other than immobilize my arm in a sling). The collar
bone is the most "mendable" bone in the body, and the two
pieces of bone will find their way back together and mend
on their own.

I broke mine 15mm from the end 3 years ago at the age of
45.I was off my bike for 8 weeks and rode carefully with no
pedal dancing for another 8weeks. I would say that it is
not clear that you would find sleeping on the ground
tolerable as soon as 5 july. As for it healing so easily, I
am a doctor, and seeing the perfect alignment I had pulled
it into at the scene of the crash while it was still
numb(ish) I expected no problem.Actually the x-ray 8weeks
later looked much worse due to bone resorption.The
orthopaedic surgeons said that at my age a fracture so near
the end might never heal, and they would have screwed it
together.Indeed they were offering it at the start. A young
person will heal much quicker.I was not in a hurry and did
not fancy surgery for the sake of a few months
discomfort.That was not a bad decision except that it was
2years before I could swim more than a mile without the
fracture site loosening up with clicks and rattles.It is
fine now. If you really want to go as planned I would say
surgical fixation right now is the best bet.The Aussie
rider in the TdF a few years ago had his fixed although
young and not fractured so near the end, presumably so that
he could be sure of getting back into training quickly (
and surely not only because he was so well insured?).
Talking of insurance, if it loosens up and gets really
disabling in germany could you just find something less
macho to do? Your travel insurance probably won't be much
use. Good luck, and when you do go, enjoy your trip.

Whichever you do it will fine eventually

TerryJ

I frqactured my right arm's radial head, plus a small bone
in my hand, and disrupted my shoulder's socket in a car-bike
incident where the driver was at fault.

I foumd that although the things healed, they remained
sensitive to any movements that had weight or inordinate
coordinations involved. Thus sleeping in a tent could be a
problem, not so much in poain intensity as in tiresome
awakenings of the physical kind (as op-posed to spiritual
awakenings, haha).

Quoted message said:

I don't know why, but I never anticipated injuring myself
so severely. Last Friday I was riding too aggressively,
hammering away when I pegged the inside pedal on a tight
curve (I was pedaling - du-uh) and crashed hard. I broke
my left collar bone (broke the last inch or so right off.)

[censored], sorry for you.

Quoted message said:

I've heard it could take anything from 4 weeks to 4 months
to heal. And even if I do heal enough to ride (July 5 is
still 5 ½ weeks a way), I don't know if I would be ready
to sleep on the ground in my tent. The Emergency Room doc
said 4 - 6 weeks. Some online searches have indicated it
could be months.

I would bet on that it would be ok after 4 - 6 weeks if they
said so. If it comes to the worst you can still cancel a
week or two before departure.

Per lowdin.nulowdin.nuOpen ↗

Chuck Anderson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<%D8tc.116868$536.21977098@attbi_s03>...

Quoted message said:

I don't know why, but I never anticipated injuring myself
so severely. Last Friday I was riding too aggressively,
hammering away when I pegged the inside pedal on a tight
curve (I was pedaling - du-uh) and crashed hard. I broke
my left collar bone (broke the last inch or so right off.)

At age 46, I broke my left collarbone, 3 ribs, and my
shoulder blade in 1995 when I was hit by a car (while
commuting to work on my road bike). I had surgery to place a
temporary pin in the collarbone (through the left shoulder).
The pin was removed six weeks later. During the time the pin
was in place my left arm was immobolized by a sling.

After the pin was removed, my left shoulder couldn't move
(because I was immobilized) and I needed "rotator cuff"
physical therapy, which I started immediately after the pin
was removed. In retrospect, I should have started physical
therapy a lot sooner. I was able to ride a mountain bike
five months after the accident (I couldn't stretch out on
the road bike) and was able to ride my road bike after 7
months. After 7 months, I no longer needed physical therapy,
at which point I felt about 80% of normal. After 12 months I
felt 95-98% of normal.

Good luck and a speedy recovery. I recommend looking into
physical therapy as soon as possible (if needed).

Lewis

Hi all,

I want to thank everyone for their responses. I have
learned a lot from your experiences, and I really
appreciate all your sentiments. This has been (and will be)
a rough time for me. Cycling had become like my religion
during the last year - relinking me with my inner self
whenever the day to day world had me dazed and confused. I
was riding harder than ever and was in better shape than
I'd ever been in before.

Now - Nothing - Nada - Zip - - - and I must admit. It's hard
keeping a clear focus without my quality cycling time. I had
been worried that I was being a little obsessive about
getting in a good hard ride every day, but now I don't give
it a second thought. I just miss it.

I made it into my follow up exam a week after the crash and
the doctor said that breaks like mine are the kind that
*can* have a hard time mending - not that it would, but in
cases where there is trouble, it is a break like mine (bone
broken off close to the end). His follow up X-ray didn't
seem to show any healing after a week.

(And when I picked up the ER X-rays and the radiologist's
review of them
- done within 24 hours of the pictures being taken - I
discovered that I had also cracked my third rib (left
side). That was "*good*" news, as I'd been having (still
have) some serious pain in that area - front and back -
which had caused me no little amount of worry. That
cracked rib has really given me the most pain.)

The doc put me in a figure 8 brace (strap? - sling?) and
said, "come back in a month."

I am not very happy with that, but I'm going to call back
and see if I can't come in sooner, as I would like to know
where I am a in less time than that.

As much as I appreciate the encouragement to go on my
planned tour this summer I just don't think I'm going to be
able to handle it. It's rare that I have the time and money
to go overseas and cycle and I want to do it in more
"optimum" conditions - not restless nights trying to sleep
comfortably - or being constantly on alert to avoid rough
treatment to my left arm and shoulder. At this point, I'm
worried more about whether I'll even heal in the next few
weeks, or need more treatment (the follow up doc used the
word surgery).

I am about ready to get a refund for the plane ticket
(possible with Lufthansa and a Medical certificate). I
haven't completely decided yet, but after seeing the doc (he
was pretty convinced that I would not be ready in one
month), I think I should bag it.

Every time I think of the crash I want to kick myself for
being my own worst enemy. How could I lose focus like that
and cause such a major injury? ....... I guess all of the
"wounds" will heal with time.

Thank you for all your information and thoughts. I'll let
you know how it goes over the next few weeks.

Chuck

(How is Germany in early September? I know the alps can be
impassible by then. Maybe I should rethink and go somewhere
like Crete at that time.)

--
*****************************
Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO cycletourist.comcycletourist.comOpen ↗
Integrity is obvious. The lack of it is common.
*****************************

Chuck Anderson said:

I made it into my follow up exam a week after the crash
and the doctor said that breaks like mine are the kind
that *can* have a hard time mending - not that it would,
but in cases where there is trouble, it is a break like
mine (bone broken off close to the end). His follow up X-
ray didn't seem to show any healing after a week.

That may be a bit soon to see anything. It takes at least
six weeks and then some before sensitivity abates. This is
good because even then you won't overload it.

Quoted message said:

(And when I picked up the ER X-rays and the radiologist's
review of

them > - done within 24 hours of the pictures being taken -
I discovered that I > had also cracked my third rib (left
side). That was "*good*" news, as > I'd been having (still
have) some serious pain in that area - front and > back -
which had caused me no little amount of worry. That cracked
rib > has really given me the most pain.)

Ribs hurt for a long time with the same protective pain but
they usually don't stop you from riding. I rode much of this
winter with a cracked rib that finally quit bothering me
after eight weeks. The old joke is "Don't make me laugh"
because that hurts. You'll be surprised that sneezes that
are otherwise unsuppressible are easily suppressed if you
have a cracked rib. It's hard to believe but that's what I
and friends have experienced.

Quoted message said:

The doc put me in a figure 8 brace (strap? - sling?) and
said, "come back in a month."

That's good and a month is fine from my experience with such
things. It won't be mended by that time but it is worth it
for him to look at
it.

Quoted message said:

I am not very happy with that, but I'm going to call back
and see if I can't come in sooner, as I would like to know
where I am a in less time than that.

I doubt that he will be interested in your attempt to
accelerate healing. Just be careful when you ride
learning to brake with your good hand over the brake
hood. I've ridden many miles that way with the busted arm
am my hip or thigh.

Quoted message said:

As much as I appreciate the encouragement to go on my
planned tour this summer I just don't think I'm going to
be able to handle it. It's rare that I have the time and
money to go overseas and cycle and I want to do it in more
"optimum" conditions - not restless nights trying to sleep
comfortably - or being constantly on alert to avoid rough
treatment to my left arm and shoulder. At this point, I'm
worried more about whether I'll even heal in the next few
weeks, or need more treatment (the follow up doc used the
word surgery).

Don't worry, you cannot affect that. Just take your time. By
the way, the Stelvio pass was open until Christmas 2003 just
to give you an idea when winter closes the Alps. In
contrast, remember, it can snow any day of the year on the
big passes (2000+m) and it does on almost all my tours. I
have also seen flocks of Swifts trying to get over the
Gotthard pass in a snowstorm as they circled in Hospental in
mid August. Weather is Variable.

Quoted message said:

I am about ready to get a refund for the plane ticket
(possible with Lufthansa and a Medical certificate). I
haven't completely decided yet, but after seeing the doc
(he was pretty convinced that I would not be ready in one
month), I think I should bag it.

Well I missed when you planned to go but I wouldn't cancel
the whole idea until about eight weeks from the break.

Quoted message said:

Every time I think of the crash I want to kick myself for
being my own worst enemy. How could I lose focus like that
and cause such a major injury?... I guess all of the
"wounds" will heal with time.

Sure will!

Quoted message said:

(How is Germany in early September? I know the alps can be
impassable by then. Maybe I should rethink and go
somewhere like Crete at that time.)

Forget about Germany, that could be rainy any time but South
Tirol and the Dolomites is worth a stab at that time.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Chuck Anderson said:

(How is Germany in early September? I know the alps can be
impassible by then. Maybe I should rethink and go
somewhere like Crete at that time.)

No, the Alps aren't impassable in September. We go on
holiday in June and September and I wouldn't say that the
weather is noticeably different. You can get bad weather
at any time. The main problem with September is that the
days are already shorter. We've been both north and south
of the Alps in September and had awful weather. We've
also had excellent weather. I've been completely rained
out in Munich in August and South Tyrol in early
September. It just depends on which way the weather
systems are moving. If you're after sun then Crete or
Cyprus or southern Italy (Sicily?) or Spain would be more
reliable, I'm sure. Mind you, I've been on Sardinia in
September and found it very cold!

I would never suggest to anyone that there is an ideal time
of year to visit most parts of Europe!
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "I didn't attend the
funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it."
- Mark Twain www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk