Wheel truing tips? (John?).

Shaun Rimmer said:

Hi folksies, Like I posted in another thread, I had a knackered wheel rim. I swapped it out for a
new one last night, and that went smoothly.

It came time to true and tension etc. and I bunged the wheel back in the frame, and in not too
much time, had it fairly true laterally. Problem came when I checked it for radial trueness - it
wasn't, it had quite a radial wobble on it.

I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or so mm, but couldn't get it
any better (was late, bad light, awkward position, tired me etc.). Now, I have never had to do
this before, and even though I've read some on the subject, found it a little difficult to get my
head around well.

I was wondering if any of you wheel-wise folks (John G?) might have any tips to make this go
smoothly when I have another go, the sort of tips I prolly won't find in the basic literature - I
don't have a truing stand, or even a work stand for the bike to go in, so I'm stuck bent over an
upturned bike, just using my eyes, the brake blocks, and a metal bar across the underside of the
chain stays to gauge lateral and radial trueness.

Any help _much_ appreciated!

I'm not an expert, but I've built about 8 wheels (so far 🙂). What I do is radial truing first, then
every 3 or so latteral adjustments, I recheck and adjust the radial. I also work in small changes --
no more than 1/4 turn (per spoke) per adjustment.

And remember to check tension as you true (pluck the spokes and listen to the tone) -- you need to
balance loosening one side vs. tighteneing the other vs. working with a loose or tight spoke that
may be 3 or 4 away from the out of alignment spot! AND, (finally) stress relieve every so often as
the wheel comes up to tension and you'll have less problems.

David

David Kunz <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shaun Rimmer said:

Hi folksies, Like I posted in another thread, I had a knackered

wheel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rim. I swapped it out for a new one last night, and that went smoothly.

It came time to true and tension etc. and I bunged the wheel back in the frame, and in not too
much time, had it fairly true laterally. Problem

came

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

when I checked it for radial trueness - it wasn't, it had quite a radial wobble on it.

I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mm, but couldn't get it any better (was late, bad light, awkward

position,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tired me etc.). Now, I have never had to do this before, and even though I've read some on the
subject, found it a little difficult to get my

head

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

around well.

I was wondering if any of you wheel-wise folks (John G?) might have any

tips

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to make this go smoothly when I have another go, the sort of tips I

prolly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

won't find in the basic literature - I don't have a truing stand, or

even a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

work stand for the bike to go in, so I'm stuck bent over an upturned

bike,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just using my eyes, the brake blocks, and a metal bar across the

underside

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the chain stays to gauge lateral and radial trueness.

Any help _much_ appreciated!

I'm not an expert, but I've built about 8 wheels (so far 🙂).

That's nearer to expert than me by 8 wheels ',;~}

Quoted message said:

What I do is radial truing first, then every 3 or so latteral adjustments, I recheck and adjust
the radial.

OK, thanks for that, but how do you know which spokes to tightenand which to loosen to correct a
radial misalignment?

Quoted message said:

I also work in small changes -- no more than 1/4 turn (per spoke) per adjustment.

Yeah - did that.

Quoted message said:

And remember to check tension as you true (pluck the spokes and listen to the tone) -- you need to
balance loosening one side vs. tighteneing the other vs. working with a loose or tight spoke that
may be 3 or 4 away from the out of alignment spot!

OK......

Quoted message said:

AND, (finally) stress relieve every so often as the wheel comes up to tension and you'll have less
problems.

Cheers - I'm actually working with the spokes that were already on, is this gonna lessen the need
for s/relieving?

Quoted message said:

David

Thanks David.

Shaun aRe

"Shaun Rimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi folksies, Like I posted in another thread, I had a knackered

wheel

Quoted message said:

rim. I swapped it out for a new one last night, and that went smoothly.

It came time to true and tension etc. and I bunged the wheel back in the frame, and in not too
much time, had it fairly true laterally. Problem

came

Quoted message said:

when I checked it for radial trueness - it wasn't, it had quite a radial wobble on it.

I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or so mm, but couldn't get it
any better (was late, bad light, awkward position, tired me etc.). Now, I have never had to do
this before, and even though I've read some on the subject, found it a little difficult to get my
head around well.

I was wondering if any of you wheel-wise folks (John G?) might have any

tips

Quoted message said:

to make this go smoothly when I have another go, the sort of tips I prolly won't find in the basic
literature - I don't have a truing stand, or even

a

Quoted message said:

work stand for the bike to go in, so I'm stuck bent over an upturned bike, just using my eyes, the
brake blocks, and a metal bar across the underside of the chain stays to gauge lateral and radial
trueness.

Any help _much_ appreciated!

Cheers folks ',;~}

Shaun aRe - gonna have at it again tonight.

If your really off 3mm, I'd suggest that you dis-assemble it completely and start over. Then I'd
somehow check the rim for roundness. Hold it beside another wheel? Sounds like it's not round to
begin with. If it's not round maybe you could return it. if OK try again. Here's a good guide.

execulink.comfaq.htmOpen ↗

--
DTW .../\.../\.../\...

D T W .../\... <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Shaun Rimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi folksies, Like I posted in another thread, I had a knackered

wheel

Quoted message said:

rim. I swapped it out for a new one last night, and that went smoothly.

It came time to true and tension etc. and I bunged the wheel back in the frame, and in not too
much time, had it fairly true laterally. Problem

came

Quoted message said:

when I checked it for radial trueness - it wasn't, it had quite a radial wobble on it.

I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mm, but couldn't get it any better (was late, bad light, awkward

position,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tired me etc.). Now, I have never had to do this before, and even though I've read some on the
subject, found it a little difficult to get my

head

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

around well.

I was wondering if any of you wheel-wise folks (John G?) might have any

tips

Quoted message said:

to make this go smoothly when I have another go, the sort of tips I

prolly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

won't find in the basic literature - I don't have a truing stand, or

even

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

work stand for the bike to go in, so I'm stuck bent over an upturned

bike,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just using my eyes, the brake blocks, and a metal bar across the

underside

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the chain stays to gauge lateral and radial trueness.

Any help _much_ appreciated!

Cheers folks ',;~}

Shaun aRe - gonna have at it again tonight.

If your really off 3mm,

About, but that's a guess, as I didn't measure it and it was late at the time.

Quoted message said:

I'd suggest that you dis-assemble it completely and start over. Then I'd somehow check the rim for
roundness. Hold it beside another wheel? Sounds like it's not round to begin with.

It was - I strapped it to the wheel with the knackered (wornthrough) rim, and just moved everything
over. The old rim had a 1 mm flat spot, and that showed when they were fastened together.

Quoted message said:

If it's not round maybe you could return it. if OK try again. Here's a good guide.

execulink.comfaq.htmOpen ↗

Cheers!

Shaun aRe

Shaun Rimmer said:

David Kunz <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Shaun Rimmer wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hi folksies,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Like I posted in another thread, I had a knackered wheel rim. I swapped it
out for a new one last night, and that went smoothly. It came time to true
and tension etc. and I bunged the wheel back in the frame, and in not too
much time, had it fairly true laterally. Problem came when I checked it for
radial trueness - it wasn't, it had quite a radial wobble on it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or so mm, but couldn't get
it any better (was late, bad light, awkward position, tired me etc.). Now, I have never had to
do this before, and even though I've read some on the subject, found it a little difficult to
get my head around well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was wondering if any of you wheel-wise folks (John G?) might have any tips to make this go
smoothly when I have another go, the sort of tips I prolly won't find in the basic literature -
I don't have a truing stand, or even a work stand for the bike to go in, so I'm stuck bent over
an upturned bike, just using my eyes, the brake blocks, and a metal bar across the underside of
the chain stays to gauge lateral and radial trueness.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Any help _much_ appreciated!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not an expert, but I've built about 8 wheels (so far 🙂).

Quoted message said:

That's nearer to expert than me by 8 wheels ',;~}

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What I do is radial truing first, then every 3 or so latteral adjustments, I recheck and adjust
the radial.

Quoted message said:

OK, thanks for that, but how do you know which spokes to tightenand which to loosen to correct a
radial misalignment?

The vast majority of my radial adjustments have been to tighten to remove a high spot. Even when I'm
building and not truing, I start with the high side and tighten -- often over wide areas.

To bring in a high spot, you need to equally tighten 2 spokes on each side. I check the tension of
the spokes across the high spot and about 2 or 3 on each side of it. If I find a loose one or
pair, I start with a 1/4 turn on those and see how that changes the high spot -- continuing to
work lose pairs until the spot is in true or the spokes are evenly tensioned across the high spot.
If the spokes are about equal through that area, I take 1/4 turn on a pair of spokes in the center
of the high spot and if the high spot is wide, I contine outward on both sides across it --
checking for truness with each couple of pairs. Towards the end of truing, I find that an 1/8 turn
is all it takes.

For low spots, loosen pairs of spokes in a similar fashion -- starting with tight spokes and then
spreading out the loosening. I'm not very good with this side -- it's much easier to remove a high
spot 🙂. I once loosened a good 1/4 of my wheel and retrued because I couldn't get rid of a low
spot. <sigh>.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also work in small changes -- no more than 1/4 turn (per spoke) per adjustment.

Quoted message said:

Yeah - did that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And remember to check tension as you true (pluck the spokes and listen to the tone) -- you need
to balance loosening one side vs. tighteneing the other vs. working with a loose or tight spoke
that may be 3 or 4 away from the out of alignment spot!

Quoted message said:

OK......

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AND, (finally) stress relieve every so often as the wheel comes up to tension and you'll have
less problems.

Quoted message said:

Cheers - I'm actually working with the spokes that were already on, is this gonna lessen the need
for s/relieving?

I still do it. Makes less of a difference, but with the wheel in a stand it doesn't take long -- I
haven't done truing on the bike in quite a while (since I switched to discs 2 years ago 🙂). In this
case, it reseats the nipples which may have shifted slightly during the truing. I also take the rim
and push hard to try to warp it to do the same thing. That way I don't have to do a small fixup
after a ride or two.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

David

Quoted message said:

Thanks David.

Quoted message said:

Shaun aRe

David

David Kunz <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shaun Rimmer said:

David Kunz <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Shaun Rimmer wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Hi folksies,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Like I posted in another thread, I had a knackered wheel rim. I swapped it
> out for a new one last night, and that went smoothly. It came time to true
> and tension etc. and I bunged the wheel back in the frame, and in not too
> much time, had it fairly true laterally. Problem came when I checked it for
> radial trueness - it wasn't, it had quite a radial wobble on it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or so mm, but couldn't
>get it any better (was late, bad light, awkward position, tired me etc.). Now, I have never
>had to do this before, and even though I've read some on the subject, found it a little
>difficult to get my head around well.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I was wondering if any of you wheel-wise folks (John G?) might have any tips to make this go
>smoothly when I have another go, the sort of tips I prolly won't find in the basic literature
>- I don't have a truing stand, or even a work stand for the bike to go in, so I'm stuck bent
>over an upturned bike, just using my eyes, the brake blocks, and a metal bar across the
>underside of the chain stays to gauge lateral and radial trueness.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Any help _much_ appreciated!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not an expert, but I've built about 8 wheels (so far 🙂).

Quoted message said:

That's nearer to expert than me by 8 wheels ',;~}

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What I do is radial truing first, then every 3 or so latteral adjustments, I recheck and adjust
the radial.

Quoted message said:

OK, thanks for that, but how do you know which spokes to tightenand which to loosen to correct
a radial misalignment?

The vast majority of my radial adjustments have been to tighten to remove a high spot. Even when
I'm building and not truing, I start with the high side and tighten -- often over wide areas.

To bring in a high spot, you need to equally tighten 2 spokes on each side. I check the tension of
the spokes across the high spot and about 2 or 3 on each side of it. If I find a loose one or
pair, I start with a 1/4 turn on those and see how that changes the high spot -- continuing to
work lose pairs until the spot is in true or the spokes are evenly tensioned across the high spot.
If the spokes are about equal through that area, I take 1/4 turn on a pair of spokes in the center
of the high spot and if the high spot is wide, I contine outward on both sides across it --
checking for truness with each couple of pairs. Towards the end of truing, I find that an 1/8 turn
is all it takes.

For low spots, loosen pairs of spokes in a similar fashion -- starting with tight spokes and then
spreading out the loosening. I'm not very good with this side -- it's much easier to remove a high
spot 🙂. I once loosened a good 1/4 of my wheel and retrued because I couldn't get rid of a low
spot. <sigh>.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also work in small changes -- no more than 1/4 turn (per spoke) per adjustment.

Quoted message said:

Yeah - did that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And remember to check tension as you true (pluck the spokes and listen to the tone) -- you need
to balance loosening one side vs. tighteneing the other vs. working with a loose or tight spoke
that may be 3 or 4 away from the out of alignment spot!

Quoted message said:

OK......

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AND, (finally) stress relieve every so often as the wheel comes up to tension and you'll have
less problems.

Quoted message said:

Cheers - I'm actually working with the spokes that were already on, is this gonna lessen the
need for s/relieving?

I still do it. Makes less of a difference, but with the wheel in a stand it doesn't take long -- I
haven't done truing on the bike in quite a while (since I switched to discs 2 years ago 🙂). In
this case, it reseats the nipples which may have shifted slightly during the truing. I also take
the rim and push hard to try to warp it to do the same thing. That way I don't have to do a small
fixup after a ride or two.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

David

Quoted message said:

Thanks David.

Quoted message said:

Shaun aRe

David

Thanks again David - taken on board and started to be digested.

Shaun aRe

Shaun Rimmer said:

I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or so mm, but couldn't get it
any better (was late, bad light, awkward position, tired me etc.). Now, I have never had to do this
before, and even though I've read some on the subject, found it a little difficult to get my head
around well.

I agree with the other poster who suggested taking the wheel back down and starting over. It's been
my experience that you CAN force a really out-of-true wheel back into submission, but because of all
the interactions going on, it's going to be a long, tedious process.

Here's what I'd recommend.

1) Back off all the nipples until you can see a good number of threads.
2) Tighten them up until the same number of threads show (normally you can get the nipple to obscure
the threads without getting too much tension on the spoke).

Normally, the above steps will net a wheel that's pretty round and pretty true. The important thing
is it will provide a very good starting point to begin truing the wheel, which should be a lot less
work than taking it from where you are now (3mm runout? Yikes!).

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

Mark Hickey <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shaun Rimmer said:

I managed to get it down to a couple of flat and high spots, maybe 3 or

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mm, but couldn't get it any better (was late, bad light, awkward

position,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tired me etc.). Now, I have never had to do this before, and even though I've read some on the
subject, found it a little difficult to get my head around well.

I agree with the other poster who suggested taking the wheel back down and starting over.

Arrrgggg - yer just takin' the [censored] now - tryin' to get yer own back because I disagreed with ya ;-|

Quoted message said:

It's been my experience that you CAN force a really out-of-true wheel back into submission, but
because of all the interactions going on, it's going to be a long, tedious process.

Here's what I'd recommend.

1) Back off all the nipples until you can see a good number of threads.
2) Tighten them up until the same number of threads show (normally you can get the nipple to
obscure the threads without getting too much tension on the spoke).

Normally, the above steps will net a wheel that's pretty round and pretty true. The important
thing is it will provide a very good starting point to begin truing the wheel, which should be a
lot less work than taking it from where you are now (3mm runout? Yikes!).

Cheers Mark - not sure the 3 mm is accurate - might be a _lot_ less. I'll take it all on board, and
may well do as you and DTW suggest - prolly give it a few minutes first. It may just be I'd had
enough by 10 last night, and things looked worse than they are.

I did start off with all the spokes wound on the same as each other in fact, maybe I was a little
inaccurate somewhere along the line....

Thanks again.

Shaun aRe - Maybe 4 1/2 ltr cans of 5% strength Danish Export beer wasn't enough for a job of this
calibre? I'll try more tonight....

I'd start over by completely slackening the entire wheel, (replace any worn nipples) and wind
it up again.

"John G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'd start over by completely slackening the entire wheel, (replace any worn nipples) and wind it
up again.

When you wind it up again give each nipple only a half turn until you get a fair amount of tension
on it. Keep checking for trueness as you go and adjust accordingly. Sometimes the spokes are
slightly different lengths 1-2 threads diff. This is where a tensiometer comes in handy in making
the decision of which spoke to tighten or which to loosen. But just use the 'tone' which is good.
Hell for your first wheel you didn't do bad at all. ;^)

Mike

On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 09:43:49 -0000, "Shaun Rimmer" <[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip Rimmer's Knackered Wheel Post]

Get a truing stand even though you don't need one.

Believe it our not it does make things easier.

In general:

You'll need to figure out if you have a high spot or a low spot.

If it's a low spot, start by loosening the spokes in that sections by a 1/4 of a turn.

If it's a high spot do the opposite.

Of course after this has been done you should re-check the tension of all the spokes. Use the tonal
method, works perfectly.

To turn tighten or loosen a spoke 1/4, turn the nipple a full half then back it off by a quarter.
This will un-bind the spoke and give you a more persistent tension.

Pre-stress the wheel.

Check trueness and adjust accordingly.

Repeat this process endlessly until wheel is true.

Peace,

Bill(finds great peace in wheels)Wheeler

The mind serves properly as a window glass rather than as a reflector, that is, the mind should give
an immediate view instead of an interpretation of the world.
:-]

John G <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'd start over by completely slackening the entire wheel, (replace any worn nipples) and wind it
up again.

Cheers John - I managed to snap a spoke hacksirley (errmmm, trying to replace a bad nipple, turned
it the wrong frewaking way...), got some more spokes. Slackedned all of the spokes off, replaced
busted and any suspect spokes, started again. 2 hours later, wheel true, and no more that 1/3 mm
radial drift, stress relieved and tensioned up etc. Rode it a little, did a few drops and jumps,
generally bounced on the sucker for all it was worth, still exactly as it started - nice and true.

I'll see how it holds up overtime ',;~}

Thanks everyone for your tips! Much appreciated.

Shaun aRe

Shaun Rimmer said:

John G <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'd start over by completely slackening the entire wheel, (replace any worn nipples) and wind it
up again.

Cheers John - I managed to snap a spoke hacksirley (errmmm, trying to replace a bad nipple, turned
it the wrong frewaking way...), got some more spokes. Slackedned all of the spokes off, replaced
busted and any suspect spokes, started again. 2 hours later, wheel true, and no more that 1/3 mm
radial drift, stress relieved and tensioned up etc. Rode it a little, did a few drops and jumps,
generally bounced on the sucker for all it was worth, still exactly as it started - nice and true.

I'll see how it holds up overtime ',;~}

Congradulations, you are almost a wheel-builder! Next step is lacing and once you got that down,
Bob's your Uncle.

ClydesdaleMTB <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shaun Rimmer said:

John G <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'd start over by completely slackening the entire wheel, (replace any worn nipples) and wind it
up again.

Cheers John - I managed to snap a spoke hacksirley (errmmm, trying to replace a bad nipple,
turned it the wrong frewaking way...), got some

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

spokes. Slackedned all of the spokes off, replaced busted and any

suspect

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

spokes, started again. 2 hours later, wheel true, and no more that 1/3

mm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

radial drift, stress relieved and tensioned up etc. Rode it a little,

did a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

few drops and jumps, generally bounced on the sucker for all it was

worth,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

still exactly as it started - nice and true.

I'll see how it holds up overtime ',;~}

Congradulations,

Cheers John.

Quoted message said:

you are almost a wheel-builder!

I cannot say I enjoyed it. I sat outside in the sun on a chair, bike USD in front of me, thinking
this would be a nice way to proceed. All the tools (incl. beer) close at hand. It was cold though,
quite, so I ended up with sore hands. I also ended up with a sore back from bending over the
freaking thing (again).

Quoted message said:

Next step is lacing and once you got that down, Bob's your Uncle.

Tony, Barry and Brian are my uncles. I have no intention of gaining an uncle 'bob'......

Shaun aRe - sure it'll be more fun by the time it gets easier.........