Recumbent-ness

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

While the plan to build the recumbent bike is still on-
track, the seat design will now probably draw heavily from
the Kettweisel, and after initial tests to ensure that it
works, I suspect a DualDrive will be in order (Possibly
even with twistgrip having seen that it's possible to use
them with USS).

One of the 'bents we tried in the NL had Dualdrive with USS
and twistgrips and I didn't like it (though I don't like
twistgrips in any position). The only advantage was that
both gear shifts were on the same side, a thumb shifter for
the hub gear and the twister for the derailleur. It could
have been the way the twister was set up, but I kept wanting
to turn my hand around to use it, and then back to be
comfortable for steering.

My Fiero will have Dual Drive with bar end shifters, with a
Shimano Alivio derailleur instead of the SRAM Dual Drive
one. (that's their standard setup for USS)

Roos

Roos Eisma said:

One of the 'bents we tried in the NL had Dualdrive with
USS and twistgrips and I didn't like it (though I don't
like twistgrips in any position). The only advantage was
that both gear shifts were on the same side, a thumb
shifter for the hub gear and the twister for the
derailleur. It could have been the way the twister was set
up, but I kept wanting to turn my hand around to use it,
and then back to be comfortable for steering.

Problem is most USS bars are turned up and used like a
standard bike's bar-end, with your thumb and index finger at
the top, rather than on the inside as they are with a flat
bar. Twistgrips and thumb shifters are generally set up to
work on the inside of a bar, so it's all [censored] about face on
the 'bent The Rohloff twistgrip is mounted upside down when
fitted to a USS Streetmachine, with the twist at the top of
the bar end to account for this. This works, but looks a bit
odd and leads to the disadvantage of cables coming out the
end of your bars rather than being routed back down them,
which isn't a Kiss of Death level problem but isn't ideal.
One smaller Dutch or German 'bentmonger (I can't remember
which, I'm afraid) has wangled a twistgrip with a much
longer twistable area so it works better with the bottom of
you hand, but you'd still suffer with the thumbshift being
in entirely the wrong place.

OTOH, bar ends work better on the bar-end like typical USS
bars than they do on the end of the drops they were
originally designed for. If you're exploring alternatives, I
think there's a Good Reason why I've never seen rapidfires
on a USS 'bent...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Roos Eisma [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

One of the 'bents we tried in the NL had Dualdrive with
USS and twistgrips and I didn't like it (though I don't
like twistgrips in any position). The only advantage was
that both gear shifts were on the same side, a thumb
shifter for the hub gear and the twister for the
derailleur. It could have been the way the twister was set
up, but I kept wanting to turn my hand around to use it,
and then back to be comfortable for steering.

The DualDrive shifter (Both shifters one side) is not an
option I'm considering. After riding a gripshift equipped
Kettweisel though, I have discovered that an hour of riding
is enough to learn how to shift using the bottom of the
hand. That said, I think I'd prefer bar-end shifters. It's
just that it'd be nice to index the hub gear.

The plan at the minute is to build it up with a 7 or 8 speed
hub and derailleur to check that it works, and if it's
usable (I don't see why not!), I'll consider the DualDrive
upgrade. The downside to it at the minute is that the wheel
alone will cost more than the rest of the bike put together.

Quoted message said:

My Fiero will have Dual Drive with bar end shifters, with
a Shimano Alivio derailleur instead of the SRAM Dual Drive
one. (that's their standard setup for USS)

I was also looking at an alternative cassette. I need to sit
down with the specs for the hub gear and work out a sensible
set of ratios though.

When does the Fiero arrive? And will you (both) be paying a
visit to the York Rally. I'm hoping to have the 'bent built
by then (Just about got all the parts now) so if it's
rolling, I may be riding down.

Jon

Jon

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

The DualDrive shifter (Both shifters one side) is not an
option I'm considering. After riding a gripshift equipped
Kettweisel though, I have discovered that an hour of
riding is enough to learn how to shift using the bottom of
the hand.

The one we used made us shift with the fingers. I think
Pete's impression was that it was the standard OSS setup
which had been transfered to USS, which then feels awkward
because your hands are the other way around.

Quoted message said:

When does the Fiero arrive?

<Jumping up and down> Soon! Soon! Soon! I did get an email
today saying that it was about ready and if I paid the
remainder it could be sent off "this week". Payment done,
I'm hoping it will be here before the weekend, but after is
probably more realistic.

Quoted message said:

And will you (both) be paying a visit to the York Rally.
I'm hoping to have the 'bent built by then (Just about
got all the parts now) so if it's rolling, I may be
riding down.

Nope, that weekend we have a trip to Strawberry Cottage in
Glen Affric planned. As well as a couple of other events
we're missing. One of those very popular weekends 🙁

Roos

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

While the plan to build the recumbent bike is still on-
track, the seat design will now probably draw heavily
from the Kettweisel, and after initial tests to ensure
that it works, I suspect a DualDrive will be in order
(Possibly even with twistgrip having seen that it's
possible to use them with USS).

My Fiero will have Dual Drive with bar end shifters, with
a Shimano Alivio derailleur instead of the SRAM Dual Drive
one. (that's their standard setup for USS)

Roos

Hmmm. I'm begining to wish I'd had business meetings in
Glasgow instead of London! I decided that bar end shifters
were the thing to have on USS, but that nice chap at bikefix
advised me that I couldn't have them as I was having the
DualDrive. I can't remember if he contacted HPvelo or not,
but I'm not a happy bunny at the moment. And given the
amount of money I will be parting with, I don't think I'm
being unreasonable in believing that I should feel like I'm
getting good customer service.
--
.paul

If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving is probably not
the sport for you.

paul said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

While the plan to build the recumbent bike is still on-
track, the seat design will now probably draw heavily
from the Kettweisel, and after initial tests to ensure
that it works, I suspect a DualDrive will be in order
(Possibly even with twistgrip having seen that it's
possible to use them with USS).

My Fiero will have Dual Drive with bar end shifters, with
a Shimano Alivio derailleur instead of the SRAM Dual
Drive one. (that's their standard setup for USS)

Roos

Hmmm. I'm begining to wish I'd had business meetings in
Glasgow instead of London! I decided that bar end shifters
were the thing to have on USS, but that nice chap at
bikefix advised me that I couldn't have them as I was
having the DualDrive.

This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but SRAM
when I had the same question. I was told that only the SRAM
dualdrive shifters (combined hub gear + rear-mech) or the
older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear only), would work.

The hub-gear has 3 settings - there's no problem with the
highest and lowest hub gears, but the one in the middle
needs to be indexed. If you cycle while it's a bit out, I'm
told it won't live long.

There would be no problem fitting a Shimano cassette & using
a Shimano rear-mech + bar-end shifter.

If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-gears,
I'm all ears.

Kit

Quoted message said:

I can't remember if he contacted HPvelo or not, but I'm
not a happy bunny at the moment. And given the amount of
money I will be parting with, I don't think I'm being
unreasonable in believing that I should feel like I'm
getting good customer service.

kit said:

This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but SRAM
when I had the same question. I was told that only the SRAM
dualdrive shifters (combined hub gear + rear-mech) or the
older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear only), would work.

Quoted message said:

The hub-gear has 3 settings - there's no problem with the
highest and lowest hub gears, but the one in the middle
needs to be indexed. If you cycle while it's a bit out, I'm
told it won't live long.

Quoted message said:

There would be no problem fitting a Shimano cassette &
using a Shimano rear-mech + bar-end shifter.

Quoted message said:

If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-
gears, I'm all ears.

Hmmm - something to check with Nazca! I'll keep you posted.
(and no Glasgow or HP-Velo involved in my bike, I'm buying
directly from Nazca, the manufacturer, in the Netherlands)

Roos

Roos Eisma said:

kit <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but SRAM
when I had the same question. I was told that only the
SRAM dualdrive shifters (combined hub gear + rear-mech) or
the older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear only), would work.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The hub-gear has 3 settings - there's no problem with the
highest and lowest hub gears, but the one in the middle
needs to be indexed. If you cycle while it's a bit out,
I'm told it won't live long.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There would be no problem fitting a Shimano cassette &
using a Shimano rear-mech + bar-end shifter.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-
gears, I'm all ears.

Quoted message said:

Hmmm - something to check with Nazca! I'll keep you posted.
(and no Glasgow or HP-Velo involved in my bike, I'm buying
directly from Nazca, the manufacturer, in the Netherlands)

Come to think of it, bar-end shifters can be indexed, so why
not? The Dual Drive shifter has 2 parts, and the thingy for
the hubgear isn't that different from a bar end shifter.

Roos

Roos Eisma scribed with passion and wit:

Quoted message said:

Roos Eisma said:

kit <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but
SRAM when I had the same question. I was told that only
the SRAM dualdrive shifters (combined hub gear + rear-
mech) or the older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear only), would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-
gears, I'm all ears.

Come to think of it, bar-end shifters can be indexed, so
why not? The Dual Drive shifter has 2 parts, and the
thingy for the hubgear isn't that different from a bar end
shifter.

Roos

SRAM uses a 1:1 shift ratio between shifter and gear mech,
all bar end shifters are designed for use with a 1:2 shift
ratio system, so you would have to use the SRAM shifter for
the hub gear and a Shimano rear mech for changing cogs on
the cassette.

--
Ian

catrike.co.ukcatrike.co.ukOpen ↗

paul said:

Hmmm. I'm begining to wish I'd had business meetings in
Glasgow instead of London!

Wouldn't necessarily have helped in this case, Roos tested
Fieros in Amsterdam and Brielle and is ordering direct from
Nazca in the NL. Though she did try out the Kinetics demo
bikes during the Great Search For The Perfect Bike the end
result there was "thanks, but no thanks" as the HPVels
didn't quite suit.

Maybe get in touch with Nazca and see exactly what they're
doing: [email hidden] It's possible it's a DualDrive-a-
like made by just putting a casette on a hub. Moulton have
been doing that for years, so it's hardly a new idea, but
ask Nazca to be sure.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

"Ian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Roos Eisma scribed with passion and wit:

Quoted message said:

Roos Eisma said:

kit <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

> This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but
> SRAM when I had the same question. I was told that
> only the SRAM dualdrive shifters (combined hub gear +
> rear-mech) or the older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear
> only), would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-
> gears, I'm all ears.

Come to think of it, bar-end shifters can be indexed, so
why not? The Dual Drive shifter has 2 parts, and the
thingy for the hubgear isn't that different from a bar
end shifter.

SRAM uses a 1:1 shift ratio between shifter and gear mech,
all bar end shifters are designed for use with a 1:2 shift
ratio system, so you would have to use the SRAM shifter
for the hub gear and a Shimano rear mech for changing cogs
on the cassette.

SRAM make or have made both types of mech. Mechs
labelled ESP are 1:1, the rest are 1:2. So you need to
check the mech.
--
Mark South Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net <<Tiens!
Ce poulet a une grenade!

Mark South scribed with passion and wit:

Quoted message said:

"Ian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Roos Eisma scribed with passion and wit:

Quoted message said:

Roos Eisma <[email hidden]> writes:

> kit <[email hidden]> writes:

>> This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but
>> SRAM when I had the same question. I was told that
>> only the SRAM dualdrive shifters (combined hub gear +
>> rear-mech) or the older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear
>> only), would

Quoted message said:

>> If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-
>> gears, I'm all ears.

Come to think of it, bar-end shifters can be indexed, so
why not? The Dual Drive shifter has 2 parts, and the
thingy for the hubgear isn't that different from a bar
end shifter.

SRAM uses a 1:1 shift ratio between shifter and gear
mech, all bar end shifters are designed for use with a
1:2 shift ratio system, so you would have to use the SRAM
shifter for the hub gear and a Shimano rear mech for
changing cogs on the cassette.

SRAM make or have made both types of mech. Mechs
labelled ESP are 1:1, the rest are 1:2. So you need to
check the mech.

All the current mechs are 1:1, they do some Shimano
compatible shifters though.

--
Ian

catrike.co.ukcatrike.co.ukOpen ↗

kit said:

If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-
gears, I'm all ears.

Reply from Henk from Nazca (translation errors are mine):

"In principle it is true that the hub gear can't be changed
with a bar-end shifter. However, 3 years ago we came up with
a workaround (I think we're the first) which makes it work
without a problem. It is right that the second gear should
be indexed. The modification of the shifter makes sure of
that, and we have used this now for almost 3 years without
any problems. Just wait and see 🙂 "

And he mentioned it will be a Shimano Deore rather than
Alivio derailleur. He didn't say anything about when he is
sending it off though 🙁

Roos

kit [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

paul said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Jon Senior <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> writes:

>While the plan to build the recumbent bike is still
>on-track, the seat design will now probably draw
>heavily from the Kettweisel, and after initial tests
>to ensure that it works, I suspect a DualDrive will be
>in order (Possibly even with twistgrip having seen
>that it's possible to use them with USS).

My Fiero will have Dual Drive with bar end shifters,
with a Shimano Alivio derailleur instead of the SRAM
Dual Drive one. (that's their standard setup for USS)

Roos

Hmmm. I'm begining to wish I'd had business meetings in
Glasgow instead of London! I decided that bar end
shifters were the thing to have on USS, but that nice
chap at bikefix advised me that I couldn't have them as
I was having the DualDrive.

This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but SRAM
when I had the same question. I was told that only the
SRAM dualdrive shifters (combined hub gear + rear-mech) or
the older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear only), would work.

The hub-gear has 3 settings - there's no problem with the
highest and lowest hub gears, but the one in the middle
needs to be indexed. If you cycle while it's a bit out,
I'm told it won't live long.

There would be no problem fitting a Shimano cassette &
using a Shimano rear-mech + bar-end shifter.

If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-
gears, I'm all ears.

A couple of suggestions (I'll be looking into these in more
detail at some point soon!).

1) Get a second indexed (RH) shifter and fill in the
unnecessary "bumps" to turn it into a 3. (Assuming that
you can calibrate which ones are unnecessary!)
2) Add "bumps" to a friction LH lever.

The SRAM clickbox has a small window which shows correct
alignment for each gear. This should allow you to calibrate
the cable pull.

A suggested solution to 2) from a which Google was to take
apart the LH lever, and apparently there is a plate which
sets a click at the end. By rotating this, you can move the
click to the centre which allows you to index the most
difficult one.

Finally. Just use the LH lever on friction and maybe even
mark the centre point on the lever itself.

Jon

Jon Senior said:

kit [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

paul said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...
> Jon Senior <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> writes:
>
> >While the plan to build the recumbent bike is still
> >on-track, the seat design will now probably draw
> >heavily from the Kettweisel, and after initial tests
> >to ensure that it works, I suspect a DualDrive will
> >be in order (Possibly even with twistgrip having seen
> >that it's possible to use them with USS).
>
> My Fiero will have Dual Drive with bar end shifters,
> with a Shimano Alivio derailleur instead of the SRAM
> Dual Drive one. (that's their standard setup for USS)
>
> Roos
>
Hmmm. I'm begining to wish I'd had business meetings in
Glasgow instead of London! I decided that bar end
shifters were the thing to have on USS, but that nice
chap at bikefix advised me that I couldn't have them as
I was having the DualDrive.

This is the party line - I contacted not HP-Velo but SRAM
when I had the same question. I was told that only the
SRAM dualdrive shifters (combined hub gear + rear-mech)
or the older Sachs 3x7 part (hub-gear only), would work.

The hub-gear has 3 settings - there's no problem with the
highest and lowest hub gears, but the one in the middle
needs to be indexed. If you cycle while it's a bit out,
I'm told it won't live long.

There would be no problem fitting a Shimano cassette &
using a Shimano rear-mech + bar-end shifter.

If there is a way to use bar-end shifters for the hub-
gears, I'm all ears.

A couple of suggestions (I'll be looking into these in
more detail at some point soon!).

1) Get a second indexed (RH) shifter and fill in the
unnecessary "bumps" to turn it into a 3. (Assuming that
you can calibrate which ones are unnecessary!)
2) Add "bumps" to a friction LH lever.

The SRAM clickbox has a small window which shows correct
alignment for each gear. This should allow you to
calibrate the cable pull.

A suggested solution to 2) from a which Google was to take
apart the LH lever, and apparently there is a plate which
sets a click at the end. By rotating this, you can move
the click to the centre which allows you to index the most
difficult one.

Finally. Just use the LH lever on friction and maybe even
mark the centre point on the lever itself.

Thanks,

Solution 2 sounds nice - I shall look into it.

Kit