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Kneeding Question

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
17 May 2004
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17 May 2004
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Tracy Karachi
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  1. Hi,

    I am trying to replicate a Moroccan recipe which includes a
    kind of fried flat bread where the dough is made from a
    combination of durum flour and AP flour, salt and hot water.
    My Moroccan SIL makes this dough by kneeding it like crazy
    and when she is done she makes litle balls of dough and
    greases them lightly with oil. Each ball is then spread out
    as thin as possible by hand and folded into a square-letter
    style--so that there are a few layers. They are then
    flattened a little more and cooked on a very hot griddle
    with a little oil. They end up nice a brown and speckly on
    the outside but on the inside the layers are steamy and very
    elastic. These are then torn up into little pieces and serve
    as a base for a chicken dish made with onions and fenugreek.
    Now my simple question is how can I tell when I have kneeded
    the dough enough so that I can get the dough to spread
    easily and not spring back at me. I have made this a few
    times with varying results--I usually end up letting the
    dough sit for a while longer---but I am convinced there is a
    better way to tell that the dough is ready.

    Thanks in advance. Tracy

  2. "Tracy Karachi" wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Now my simple question is how can I tell when I have
    kneeded the dough enough so that I can get the dough to
    spread easily and not spring back at me. I have made this
    a few times with varying results--I usually end up letting
    the dough sit for a while longer---but I am convinced
    there is a better way to tell that the dough is ready.

    One of the reasons for kneading dough is gluten
    development. Gluten is the rubbery substance that helps
    hold bread together. Kneading will always, at least in my
    experience, result in a dough that will spring back if one
    tries to spread it or work with it immediately after
    kneading. Most bread and pizza dough recipes allow for a
    resting period between kneading and shaping to allow the
    gluten to relax a bit making the dough easier to work. I
    think you are doing the right thing by letting it sit a bit
    before working the dough.

    I have read that gluten will eventually break down if dough
    is over-kneaded. This is something I've never experienced
    and I think it would be virtually impossible to over-knead
    dough by hand.

    -Mike

  3. "Tracy Karachi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hi,

    I am trying to replicate a Moroccan recipe which includes
    a kind of fried flat bread where the dough is made from a
    combination of durum flour and AP flour, salt and hot
    water. My Moroccan SIL makes this dough by kneeding it
    like crazy and when she is done she makes litle balls of
    dough and greases them lightly with oil. Each ball is then
    spread out as thin as possible by hand and folded into a
    square-letter style--so that there are a few layers. They
    are then flattened a little more and cooked on a very hot
    griddle with a little oil. They end up nice a brown and
    speckly on the outside but on the inside the layers are
    steamy and very elastic. These are then torn up into
    little pieces and serve as a base for a chicken dish made
    with onions and fenugreek. Now my simple question is how
    can I tell when I have kneeded the dough enough so that I
    can get the dough to spread easily and not spring back at
    me. I have made this a few times with varying results--I
    usually end up letting the dough sit for a while longer---
    but I am convinced there is a better way to tell that the
    dough is ready.

    Kneading is what makes the dough spring back. After kneading
    you need to let it rest for a while - 15 minutes maybe - to
    let it loose its springiness so you can roll it out.

    BTW sounds like a great recipe. Are you willing to post it?

    --
    Peter Aitken

    Remove the [censored] from my email address before using.

  4. It sounds like you're in Kneed? 🙂

    Tracy Karachi said:

    Hi,

    I am trying to replicate a Moroccan recipe which includes
    a kind of fried flat bread where the dough is made from a
    combination of durum flour and AP flour, salt and hot
    water. My Moroccan SIL makes this dough by kneeding it
    like crazy and when she is done she makes litle balls of
    dough and greases them lightly with oil. Each ball is then
    spread out as thin as possible by hand and folded into a
    square-letter style--so that there are a few layers. They
    are then flattened a little more and cooked on a very hot
    griddle with a little oil. They end up nice a brown and
    speckly on the outside but on the inside the layers are
    steamy and very elastic. These are then torn up into
    little pieces and serve as a base for a chicken dish made
    with onions and fenugreek. Now my simple question is how
    can I tell when I have kneeded the dough enough so that I
    can get the dough to spread easily and not spring back at
    me. I have made this a few times with varying results--I
    usually end up letting the dough sit for a while longer---
    but I am convinced there is a better way to tell that the
    dough is ready.

    Thanks in advance. Tracy

  5. Tracy Karachi said:

    I am trying to replicate a Moroccan recipe which includes a
    kind of fried flat bread where the dough is made from a
    combination of durum flour and AP flour, salt and hot
    water. My Moroccan SIL makes this dough by...

    <snip>

    Why not consult SIL? Better, if she's nearby, request a hands-
    on lesson. Kneading dough has always seemed to me to be
    something one needs either personal instruction or long
    practice to master. I *loathe* written directions to knead
    until the dough is "smooth and satiny" or "smooth and
    elastic" or some such abstraction. Even video doesn't help
    much because no one is going to film the entire process, and
    if the 'feel' of the dough is so important, it's impossible
    to experience 2nd hand.

  6. Peter Aitken said:
    Quoted message said:

    Kneading is what makes the dough spring back. After
    kneading you need to let it rest for a while - 15
    minutes maybe - to let it loose its springiness so you
    can roll it out.

    BTW sounds like a great recipe. Are you willing to post it?

    Thanks...and I just realized what a great speller I am..🙂

    I guess I am just impatient because it always seems that
    when I am watching my SIL--that there is no resting
    time....but I shall try to be more patient. She kneads kinda
    funny too....with her fists clenched and rocks her knuckles
    back and forth into the dough. It is something I just can't
    get comfortable doing and I don't know if it makes a
    difference.

    Here is the recipe....btw ...the fried bread part can be
    eaten like pancakes with butter and syrup or honey....

    Tracy

    Chicken with Onions and Fenugreek

    8 Chicken Legs or 2 small Chickens cut up 2 or 3 onions
    sliced Olive oil 1 small bunch each cilantro and parsley
    tied with string (5 sprigs each approx.) ½ cup Lentils,
    washed 2 tbls whole fenugreek ¼ tsp. ginger ¼ tsp. turmeric
    Pinch saffron (optional) ¼ tsp. smen (see note) Salt and
    pepper (this recipe requires a lot of salt-probably at least
    a tablespoon-if not more Water

    Heat ¼ cup olive oil in a large dutch oven. Add chicken and
    onions and cook for a few minutes. It is not necessary to
    brown the chicken. Add salt, pepper, ginger, turmeric, and
    saffron if using. Cook on low with a cover for about 20
    minutes. Add the lentils, fenugreek and enough water to
    barely cover the chicken. Cover and simmer till chicken is
    done and lentils are cooked through-about 30-40 minutes.
    While the chicken is simmering you can start the m'simmen.
    The chicken will be done before the m'simmen are but you can
    reheat the chicken very quickly at serving time.

    Smen is aged butter that has a very strong flavor. You
    either like it or you don't. My SIL brought back with her
    several jelly jars full of the stuff from her last trip
    to Morocco.

    M'simmen

    These pancakes are very labor intensive but the
    ingredients are few.

    Warm Water Equal parts durum flour and all-purpose flour
    Salt Vegetable oil

    It is an art not a science to making these and I have only
    made them a few times on my own with varying quality. Try
    doing this with smaller amounts of flour for practice. There
    is A LOT of kneading and you get tired quickly.

    Combine about 3 cups each of durum flour and all purpose
    flour with 1 Tablespoon of salt. Sprinkle with warm water
    until you can form dough. It all depends on the weather how
    much water you will need-probably about a cup or two. Knead
    the dough till it is not too sticky any more and then
    sprinkle more water on it and incorporate it into the dough.
    Do this a couple of times until the dough is soft. My SIL
    and I did this recently and we were kneading for a solid 20
    minutes. I might try this in my mixer someday soon…. Oil the
    big mound of dough with a bit of oil.

    Next, oil a clean platter and your hands. Tear away
    tangerine sized chunks of dough and as if you were making a
    roll pull the sides under to make a nice smooth ball. You
    can also push the dough between your connected index finger
    and thumb. Everything should be nicely coated with oil.

    Oil your clean counter and your hands and take the first
    formed ball and spread it out as thin as you can, starting
    from the middle of the ball. They should spread very easily;
    if they don't you did not knead the dough enough. Tears in
    the dough are ok. They should spread to about 12 x 12. Fold
    it in thirds turn and fold into thirds again. Set aside. You
    should have something about 3 inches square. Repeat with
    remaining balls of dough. You should be sprinkling the dough
    with oil as you go as well.

    These are now ready for cooking. Heat a large flat heavy pan
    (I use a cast iron griddle) and sprinkle with a bit of oil.
    Take one of your folded "packets" and spread it out to about
    5 x 5 inches square and place on the hot pan. Let it brown
    on both sides. A little bit of black is ok. They take about
    5 minutes a side. Set the finished ones aside in a large
    platter with a lip that will serve as your serving dish. I
    use a large pasta style platter. After you have a couple
    finished, you need to shred them. When you folded them you
    created a bunch of layers. Now each layer needs to be
    separated. Just pull them apart and tear the layers into 2
    inch pieces. The outside is crisp and the inside is soft.
    Just tear everything up and keep them covered with a towel.
    When you have only a couple of packets to finish turn your
    chicken back on to heat up.

    When your chicken is hot, ladle some broth onto the shredded
    pancakes. They absorb a lot. You don't want so much that the
    broth pools up under the pancakes. Just enough to really
    moisten them. Place the chicken on the pancakes and the
    lentils should be on top of the chicken.

    Enjoy!

  7. Peter Aitken said:

    Kneading is what makes the dough spring back. After
    kneading you need to let it rest for a while - 15
    minutes maybe - to let it loose its springiness so you
    can roll it out.


    I learned to make roti from people from the Indian
    subcontinent. They mixed their flour by hand, adding water
    slowly so as not to add too much (once you add to much,
    adding flour back in didn't work...made it tough), lightly
    kneading until it was just evenly mixed. Then they'd let it
    sit a bit. HTH blacksalt

  8. Frogleg said:
    Tracy Karachi said:

    I am trying to replicate a Moroccan recipe which includes
    a kind of fried flat bread where the dough is made from a
    combination of durum flour and AP flour, salt and hot
    water. My Moroccan SIL makes this dough by...

    <snip>

    Why not consult SIL? Better, if she's nearby, request a hands-
    on lesson. Kneading dough has always seemed to me to be
    something one needs either personal instruction or long
    practice to master. I *loathe* written directions to knead
    until the dough is "smooth and satiny" or "smooth and
    elastic" or some such abstraction. Even video doesn't help
    much because no one is going to film the entire process,
    and if the 'feel' of the dough is so important, it's
    impossible to experience 2nd hand.

    I have three Moroccan S's IL and one lives too far away (in
    Morocco) and the other two live close enough but it is not
    their favorite dish to make...so I don't often get a chance
    to watch....plus whenever we (the husband and I) go over for
    dinner--everything is ready---and that is how they usually
    like it---no showing up early to watch is allowed. They are
    not fond of giving out recipes either--they are usually very
    vague. I think mainly because they do not use
    recipes...everything they make is from memory--learned from
    a very early age....So..I am on my own here. It is one of my
    favorites so I will continue to attempt to make it....and
    perfect it.

    Tracy

  9. Tracy Karachi said:
    Peter Aitken said:
    Quoted message said:

    Kneading is what makes the dough spring back. After
    kneading you need to let it rest for a while - 15
    minutes maybe - to let it loose its springiness so you
    can roll it out.

    BTW sounds like a great recipe. Are you willing to
    post it?

    Thanks...and I just realized what a great speller I am..🙂

    I guess I am just impatient because it always seems that
    when I am watching my SIL--that there is no resting
    time....but I shall try to be more patient. She kneads
    kinda funny too....with her fists clenched and rocks her
    knuckles back and forth into the dough. It is something I
    just can't get comfortable doing and I don't know if it
    makes a difference.

    Kneading can be done in many different ways, and as you get
    experienced working with doughs, you will develop one that
    is comfortable to you. Some folks like to stretch and pull
    and fold the dough, rather than use old fashioned kneading.
    Some have had success rolling the dough through a pasta
    machine, others use a mixer to do the kneading.

    If you want to see some kneading techniques in action and
    have a decent high speed net connection, go to:
    pbs.orgvideo.html

    If you search on bread at the above link, you will come up
    with many great bread bakers showing Julia their own
    techniques and specialties. Watch a few videos until you
    feel comfy trying on your own.

    Start with simple, lean breads of flour, salt, yeast &
    water. These are very inexpensive ingredients to experiment
    with and you will find yourself successful in no time.

    You may also want to search the google archives for
    alt.bread.recipes. or rec.food.sourdough, using your key
    words (knead, etc) and see what has been chatted about in
    these fine bread baking groups. There are some really
    wonderful bread bakers on each. I count myself only as an
    admirer of their talents and rely on their expert advice.

    Boron

  10. Tracy Karachi said:

    I guess I am just impatient because it always seems that
    when I am watching my SIL--that there is no resting
    time....but I shall try to be more patient. She kneads
    kinda funny too....with her fists clenched and rocks her
    knuckles back and forth into the dough. It is something I
    just can't get comfortable doing and I don't know if it
    makes a difference.

    Keep watching and keep trying. It took me months to perfect
    roti, and about 5 years to learn to make Indian food my ex-
    ILs considered worthy enough for compliments. Chances are
    your SIL learned to make these as a little girl. blacksalt

  11. Tracy Karachi said:

    I have three Moroccan S's IL and one lives too far away
    (in Morocco) and the other two live close enough but it is
    not their favorite dish to make...so I don't often get a
    chance to watch....plus whenever we (the husband and I) go
    over for dinner--everything is ready---and that is how
    they usually like it---no showing up early to watch is
    allowed.

    Is the MIL or FIL. My ex-MIL and FIL LOVED to teach me to
    cook, so that their baby boy (over 6 foot) would get
    properly fed. blacksalt

  12. Boron Elgar said:


    Kneading can be done in many different ways, and as you get
    experienced working with doughs, you will develop one that
    is comfortable to you. Some folks like to stretch and pull
    and fold the dough, rather than use old fashioned kneading.
    Some have had success rolling the dough through a pasta
    machine, others use a mixer to do the kneading.

    If you want to see some kneading techniques in action and
    have a decent high speed net connection, go to:
    pbs.orgvideo.html

    If you search on bread at the above link, you will come up
    with many great bread bakers showing Julia their own
    techniques and specialties. Watch a few videos until you
    feel comfy trying on your own.

    Start with simple, lean breads of flour, salt, yeast &
    water. These are very inexpensive ingredients to experiment
    with and you will find yourself successful in no time.

    You may also want to search the google archives for
    alt.bread.recipes. or rec.food.sourdough, using your key
    words (knead, etc) and see what has been chatted about in
    these fine bread baking groups. There are some really
    wonderful bread bakers on each. I count myself only as an
    admirer of their talents and rely on their expert advice.

    Boron

    Thanks. I will be checking that website soon. I don't often
    make bread mostly because it never seems to come out the way
    I think it should. I am sure it is because I never knead the
    dough enough.

    Tracy

  13. On Thu, 13 May 2004 17:40:10 -0700, kalanamak <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Tracy Karachi said:

    I guess I am just impatient because it always seems that
    when I am watching my SIL--that there is no resting
    time....but I shall try to be more patient. She kneads
    kinda funny too....with her fists clenched and rocks her
    knuckles back and forth into the dough. It is something I
    just can't get comfortable doing and I don't know if it
    makes a difference.

    Keep watching and keep trying. It took me months to perfect
    roti, and about 5 years to learn to make Indian food my ex-
    ILs considered worthy enough for compliments. Chances are
    your SIL learned to make these as a little girl. blacksalt

    Yes, every Moroccan girl learns how to make these from a
    very young age....and practice makes perfect I guess. They
    are similar to roti so next time I will try the "add water
    slowly" method. I usually just dump a bunch of water in and
    add more as needed....

    Thanks. Tracy

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