24hour lighting...

Quoted message said:

Originally posted by eddiec
Well, that's it.. We've committed ourselves.. Our team of three >old fools has signed up for the Kona 24 hour in November. >Anyone else joining us??

Suckers! I mean.. cool ;-)

Not sure if I'm doing it this year.. wonder if last year's team is reading?

Quoted message said:

Currently looking at following Fat Hippy's plans and building a >20watt handlebar job and a 20watt helmet mount,

I managed with a Vistalite 5W bar and 10W helmet setup. I'm
not even reasonably fast though so your extra speed may
need more lighting?

Quoted message said:

Initially thought of using rechargables, but now questioning if >we'd have enough recharge time between laps or could be

Yeah, at around 1hr per lap (0:45 if you're fast or 1:20 for me),
you're only going to have 2 hours to charge your batt. Trick is to
take as many batts as you can and do two or more laps while 1
is on the charger.

Quoted message said:

Rough calculations seem to indicate that 4 lantern batteries of >decent quality should provide a fair whack of run time for both >lights, but as usual, there's often some tricky thing that I miss...

That will be pretty heavy and you'll have to make sure the connections between batts are solid for the bumpy track.
You'll need a few of them too which might make recharging look
at bit more reasonable cost-wise.

Quoted message said:

And any other preparation/training/planning tips as we
hunker down and prepare for this onslaught?

Ride lots. Ride at night lots.
Work out what you can eat and drink when going hard
and when recovering between laps.
Think about the tools you will need - buy them.

My race report from last year is on this group - a quick google
groups search should reveal it ("hippy" "Kona" "24" etc)

hth
hippy
- Some smarter dudes will surely help more with power requirements and the like... sit tight 🙂

eddiec said:

...snip.... but now questioning if we'd have enough
recharge time between laps or could be bothered getting to
the recharge tent, and wondering if it's possible
(ie. enough run time, bright, etc.) to run such lights of
a few lantern batteries..

Another alternative that you might look at is rechargeable
tool batteries. This is an idea from Moz. I only mention it
because I've seen catalogues (Aldi?) where this stuff
started around $15. Junk the tool & keep the battery.

I have no idea on capacity, etc.

Terry Collins said:

Another alternative that you might look at is rechargeable
tool batteries. This is an idea from Moz. I only mention
it because I've seen catalogues (Aldi?) where this stuff
started around $15. Junk the tool & keep the battery.

I have no idea on capacity, etc.

They aren't worth the effort involved walking into the
shop to buy it in the first place.

They use the cheapest, lowest capacity batteries they can
find.

Go out and buy either nicads or NiMHs, by far better value
for money than any rubbish you're likely to find supplied
with junk like that.

--
Linux Registered User # 302622 <counter.li.orgcounter.li.orgOpen ↗

bunnings have a 12V rechargeable drill for $19 that has1.2Ah
NiCads and comes with a charger, sure its a [censored] charger but
the batteries alone would cost you $55 for 1.3Ah for jaycar
or $29.5 for Ni-Mh. If you making a pack to use a lot, then
sure go with Ni-Mh, but if it just an extra pack or
something you are only going to use a couple of times a
year, then I think they will be fine. thats if 1.2Ah will
get you a full lap. I use one for my 10W helmet light.

The initial plan was to go the rechargeable route - and if I keep on using these lights pre/post race I may still do so, so that's all good advice - thanks!

However, for most road commuting I'm happy with a lightweight low-power light, and I'm looking for a simple approach for race lighting...

On looking around Bunnings and such today I've found that a couple of fairly ordinary lantern batteries will give me (according to the tech sheets) about 11Ah for about $7 per battery... and if you're willing to go to alkaline's (about $12 per battery) then you get up to 26Ah capacity... So that should theoretically see me through the race without having to fuss with charging. Of course, this is all theory at this stage. I'll make the lights and see how the lantern batteries handle it!

Although I did see more stuff while i was there too! Like tiny 20w micro-halogen lamps with heat-shielded aluminium backings which looked like the perfect deal for a helmet light... Or even two 10w micros mounted on either side of the helmet for that techy look! (Would 2x10w lights give as good penetration of the darkness as a single 20w? May be a dumb question, but I'm not sure...)

stu said:

bunnings have a 12V rechargeable drill for $19 that
has1.2Ah NiCads and comes with a charger, sure its a [censored]
charger but the batteries alone would cost you $55 for
1.3Ah for jaycar or $29.5 for Ni-Mh. If you making a pack
to use a lot, then sure go with Ni-Mh, but if it just an
extra pack or something you are only going to use a
couple of times a year, then I think they will be fine.
thats if 1.2Ah will get you a full lap. I use one for my
10W helmet light.

Been there done that.

Test them. You'll find the Jaycar batteries are better,
hold more capacity, and have a far lower self-discharge.

And if you look, you can find even better batteries that
what Jaycar has on offer, though you'll probably be
paying more.

Generally, you get what you pay for- regardless of the
label says.

--
Linux Registered User # 302622 <counter.li.orgcounter.li.orgOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bunnings have a 12V rechargeable drill for $19 that
has1.2Ah NiCads and comes with a charger, sure its a
[censored] charger but the batteries alone

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cost you $55 for 1.3Ah for jaycar or $29.5 for Ni-Mh. If
you making a

pack

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to use a lot, then sure go with Ni-Mh, but if it just an
extra pack or something you are only going to use a
couple of times a year, then I

think

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they will be fine. thats if 1.2Ah will get you a full
lap. I use one for my 10W helmet

light.

Quoted message said:

Been there done that.

Test them. You'll find the Jaycar batteries are better,
hold more

capacity,

Quoted message said:

and have a far lower self-discharge.

even if you only use them twice a year?

Quoted message said:

And if you look, you can find even better batteries that
what Jaycar has

on

Quoted message said:

offer, though you'll probably be paying more.

you can find much better batteries, how about some 9Ah NiMh
for only $27.90 each but if you really want to spend money,
forget NiMh and go with Li-Ion . then you have to make them
into a pack and make/buy a charger.

Quoted message said:

Generally, you get what you pay for- regardless of the
label says.

for sure, but if you are only going to use them 2 nights a
year then the rechangerable drill is quick easy and cheap.
if you want something that is going to surive the ride
home every night through winter, you will want something
better for sure.

I've always managed on a pair of 5 watt handlebar mounts. A
pair of good, tightly focused halogen lamp like a Cateye is
good for up to 30km/h under a toatlly overcast, new moon sky
on open, unlit roads. Add a xenon (strobe type) headlamp for
extra range and round corners and you'll be fine.

All of this is much lighter than "megawatts" and will run
off AA cells (3 to 4 hours for 5 watts off 4 alkalines)
which adds up to probably 10 AA cells times 4 or 40x AA
which would weigh a stack less than 4 lantern batteries and
be easier to pack. If you run the lights with their covers
held on with elastic bands, you can change batteries on the
go, too. (Be careful, though!)

eddiec said:

Well, that's it.. We've committed ourselves.. Our team of
three old fools has signed up for the Kona 24 hour in
November. Anyone else joining us??

Quoted message said:

But now I'm working through the issue of lighting for the
race and wondering what the best approach is.

Quoted message said:

Currently looking at following Fat Hippy's plans and
building a 20watt handlebar job and a 20watt helmet mount,
and the issue of battery power is now vexing me. Initially
thought of using rechargables, but now questioning if we'd
have enough recharge time between laps or could be
bothered getting to the recharge tent, and wondering if
it's possible
(ie. enough run time, bright, etc.) to run such lights of
a few lantern batteries... Has anyone done this?
Rough calculations seem to indicate that 4 lantern
batteries of decent quality should provide a fair
whack of run time for both lights, but as usual,
there's often some tricky thing that I miss...

Quoted message said:

And any other preparation/training/planning tips as we
hunker down and prepare for this onslaught?

Quoted message said:

--

stu said:

you can find much better batteries, how about some 9Ah
NiMh for only $27.90 each but if you really want to spend
money, forget NiMh and go with Li-Ion . then you have to
make them into a pack and make/buy a charger.

Sure, but then you're getting the best energy density that
money can buy, a good idea for bicycles, since you're
keeping the weight down.

However, if you're going to spend that sort of money,
you may as well go for HID, much better efficiency
than halogens.

But by that stage, you're spending around $1K.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Generally, you get what you pay for- regardless of the
label says.

for sure, but if you are only going to use them 2 nights a
year then the rechangerable drill is quick easy and cheap.

If you're going to use them two nights out of a year, Lead
acid is the cheapest way up-front.

Those el-cheapos probably won't last you a lap. Start
practicing riding in the dark to gain night skills, you're
going to need it.

You really don't get it do you? Those $15 drills cost
about $2-3 coming into the country. And that's
getting ripped.

If the batteries are 25% of the product cost (just a
guess), you're looking at around 50c for the batteries.
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Quoted message said:

if you want something that is going to surive the ride
home every night through winter, you will want something
better for sure.

NiCad is the cheapest dollar for dollar.

NiMh are better for the environment, though might not be
suited for high discharge.

LiIon is the lightest, when only the best will do if
you're trying to perform in the dark.

SLA, though would have a higher TCO (total cost of
ownership) than NiCads, are the cheapest up-front.

--
Linux Registered User # 302622 <counter.li.orgcounter.li.orgOpen ↗

John Tserkezis wrote:

...snip....

Quoted message said:

SLA, though would have a higher TCO (total cost of
ownership) than NiCads, are the cheapest up-front.

Could you substantiate this?

I would have thought that SLAs were the lowest TCO because
they last the longest and have the greatest (after LA)
number of recharge cycles.

BTW. If you have tested those cheap tool batteries, then I
do appreciate the comments on their capapcity. Better your $
than mine {:-)

stu wrote:

...snip.....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Generally, you get what you pay for- regardless of the
label says.

for sure, but if you are only going to use them 2 nights a
year then the rechangerable drill is quick easy and cheap.

Another trap with these is to make sure that you do not make
something that is dependant on the battery shape. It seems
to change each model/year/month? (Has a nice 12v rechargable
drill that is useless because no replacement batteries are
available.)

(Pedro Allen Power) said:

I've always managed on a pair of 5 watt handlebar mounts.
A pair of good, tightly focused halogen lamp like a
Cateye is good for up to 30km/h under a toatlly overcast,
new moon sky on open, unlit roads. Add a xenon (strobe
type) headlamp for extra range and round corners and
you'll be fine.

I like the idea of using only standard alkalines and would
prefer to stick to these for night rides. Custom, heavy
batteries, chargers etc. are just too expensive and painful.

I'm hoping that the new cateye EL500 will be brighter enough
compared to the EL300 - this will be a win for me. The EL300
is great, excellent battery life and light (weight light
that is..) but just not bright enough to be a main light.

davidp.
--
David Pascoe, [email hidden], Western Australia

"stu" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

you can find much better batteries, how about some 9Ah
NiMh for only $27.90 each

Where? I'm making my own set of lights at the moment and
that's a bloody good price!

Cheers,

Graeme

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you can find much better batteries, how about some 9Ah
NiMh for only $27.90 each

Where? I'm making my own set of lights at the moment and
that's a bloody good price!

jaycar thats "each" and you will need 10 of them if you want
to get them in from the states batteryspace.combatteryspace.comOpen ↗
index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=228 8*9.5Ah $44.95US
batteryspace.comindex.aspOpen ↗
rodID=167 10*4Ah $24.99US

"stu" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:40a1a147$0$440$afc38c87
@news.optusnet.com.au:

Quoted message said:

jaycar thats "each" and you will need 10 of them

Thought so. That was a bit sneaky, not comparing like
with like.

Quoted message said:

if you want to get them in from the states bat-bat-Open ↗
teryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=228
8*9.5Ah $44.95US batteryspace.comindex.aspOpen ↗
geAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=167 10*4Ah $24.99US

Good price. Shame it would be mail order though, it's not as
easy to sneak them into the house so my wife doesn't see
that I've just spend over $100 on batteries ;-)

Graeme

"Graeme" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"stu" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:40a1a147$0$440$afc38c87 @news.optusnet.com.au:

Quoted message said:

jaycar thats "each" and you will need 10 of them

Thought so. That was a bit sneaky, not comparing like
with like.

I did say each for the 9Ah ones.(if you buy 10 the are
"only" $24.95 each from jaycar) In another post I talked
about a 1.2Ah pack that would be $29.50 for 10*1.2Ah AAs
sorry for the confusetion

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if you want to get them in from the states b-b-Open ↗
atteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=-
228 8*9.5Ah $44.95US batteryspace.comindex.Open ↗
asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=167 10*4Ah $24.99US

Good price. Shame it would be mail order though, it's not
as easy to sneak them into the house so my wife doesn't
see that I've just spend over $100 on batteries ;-)

yer that can be the biggest problem 🙂

Terry Collins said:

Quoted message said:

SLA, though would have a higher TCO (total cost of
ownership) than NiCads, are the cheapest up-front.

Quoted message said:

Could you substantiate this?

Quoted message said:

I would have thought that SLAs were the lowest TCO because
they last the longest and have the greatest (after LA)
number of recharge cycles.

NiCads have a greater recharge cycle life than SLAs. Lead
acids tend to not like being discharged at all, especially
deeply discharged. Their nature is better suited to
standby applications (such as battery backup, UPS etc).

Nicads are better than SLA if abused by
charge/recharge cycles.

Also, leaving nicads discharged generally won't kill them,
leaving lead acids discharged _will_ kill them.

Quoted message said:

BTW. If you have tested those cheap tool batteries, then I
do appreciate the comments on their capapcity. Better your
$ than mine {:-)

No "official" tests, the differences are so clear there is
no need for any stopwatch and calculator tests.

I'm comparing two dustbusters, one with standard
batteries, always in the cradle being trickle charged
(1.2A/h factory nicads), the other with jaycar
2.4A/h high discharge NiMh cells retro-fitted directly after
purchase. (to heck with the warranty)

The standard one that lives plugged in, IS plugged in
because it self discharges to virtually nothing after two
weeks otherwise. I've just run it now, it goes for 2.5
minutes before slowing down. It claims 7.2v 1.2A/hr, but
that's a damned lie, because I can only see four cells.
Suction is enough to pick up bits of paper for
demonstration purposes. If you haven't picked up the bits
of paper in 2.5 minutes, you're up for another overnight
charging session.

The modified one has 5 cells, touted as the "high power"
wet/dry version. It's plugged into a timed constant
current charger (non factory standard) that gives a full
charge in about four hours (I didn't want to abuse the
cells), and only gets charged when needed. It goes months
before needing a recharge. It's good for 6.5 minutes
before slowing down. It sucks enough to make it useful.
The replacement cells cost about the same as the
dustbuster itself.

Allowing for the higher discharge current on the higher
power dustbuster,
you're looking at about three times the run time, for only
"double" capacity.
--
Linux Registered User # 302622 <counter.li.orgcounter.li.orgOpen ↗

"John Tserkezis" wrote

Quoted message said:

No "official" tests, the differences are so clear there
is no need for

any

Quoted message said:

stopwatch and calculator tests.

I'm comparing two dustbusters, one with standard
batteries, always in

the

Quoted message said:

cradle being trickle charged (1.2A/h factory nicads), the
other with

jaycar

Quoted message said:

2.4A/h high discharge NiMh cells retro-fitted directly
after purchase. (to

heck

Quoted message said:

with the warranty)

You can buy a cheapo 12V drill for around $40. I paid $80
wholesale just to have the batteries replaced in my 12V
Hilti. If you want a battery pack from Hilti prepare to pay
$180. You bet there is a difference between batteries

Theo

eddiec said:

The initial plan was to go the rechargeable route - and if
I keep on using these lights pre/post race I may still do
so, so that's all good advice - thanks!

However, for most road commuting I'm happy with a
lightweight low-power light, and I'm looking for a simple
approach for race lighting...

:
:

Quoted message said:

Although I did see more stuff while i was there too! Like
tiny 20w micro- halogen lamps with heat-shielded aluminium
backings which looked like the perfect deal for a helmet
light... Or even two 10w micros mounted on either side of
the helmet for that techy look! (Would 2x10w lights give
as good penetration of the darkness as a single 20w? May
be a dumb question, but I'm not sure...)

I use 12V Osram Decostar 20W IRC bulbs - a "special" halogen
which is supposed to give you about the same as a normal 35W
bulb. I think there is a 10W version too. It lights up the
night. I've used it for 24 hour races, running at night and
just for commuting.

The NZ company NightLightning sells a kit for a light based
around this sized globe. The kit is $NZ109 (about $AU95).
That's without batteries. I'd check out their stuff - the
low-end stuff is simple and fairly cheap. Its not quite as
cheap as home-made, but its bloody robust.
www.nightlightning.co.nz They have a range of batteries too.

Andy