kids, trailers & helmets

"David Cowie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a Burley trailer arriving soon and was wondering if
it's necessary for helmets ? Given most riding will be sans-
traffic. It's bad enough trying to get them to wear hats
in their pram, can't imagine what it'll be like for
helmets (although the strap will help).

The instructions will probably say to wear helmets, but it
is a merkin device.

The danger with trailers isn't traffic (where a helmet won't
help anyway), it's clipping it on a kerb and rolling it. So
ensure your kids are safe should you do this. There is some
amount of roll cage on the burley ones, so this may not
involve using a helmet - or it may.

(you're talking about prams - are we talking about very
smalls here? In which case use a car seat in the trailer,
and you don't need a helmet with one of them.)

cheers, clive

David Cowie said:

I have a Burley trailer arriving soon and was wondering if
it's necessary for helmets ?

Not a question it's possible to answer without being able to
look into the future :-(

AFAICT Burleys don't have a habit of flipping so there's no
particular reason the kids inside it should be banging their
heads off the ground.

I can't /guarantee/ their safety without versus with, of
course, but if there's no reason to expect the trailer to
unload them there's no particular point in a helmet, which
is designed for low speed, relatively low energy impacts
like just falling over.

Quoted message said:

Given most riding will be sans-traffic.

Doesn't necessarily make any real difference. If it's hit by
a motor vehicle then all the bets are off and it's fairly
unlikely a helmet (even if properly fitted) would make any
real difference in such a case. Sad, but probably true.

Quoted message said:

I always wear a helmet and favour Giro. I would want to
invest the same care in the kids, but welcome arguments as
to how necessary they are considering the roll cage etc.

See above. Note that a helmet specification (plus real world
data showing what they will do) is such that you can expect
them to save the wearer from a nasty graze (if they land
somewhere the helmet's protecting, mine didn't save me a
horrible scab on my chin last year), and not really much
more. Now, that's a good thing in itself, but a nasty graze
is unlikely to kill you or even give any sort of long term
problems. I used to always wear a helmet, these days I'm a
bit more in touch with what I can expect of them and
certainly wouldn't want to be wearing one today for just
getting about as it's hot, sunny and humid, just the sort of
conditions to make wearing a lid particularly unpleasant.
I'm not in the habit of falling off, at least for utility
cycling, so why wear something to possibly mitigate a
possible but very unlikely injury when the cost to do so is
a 100% certainty of a good deal of comfort loss? If you want
them to enjoy travelling by pedal power then having them
associate it with hot, sweaty boxes with snug chin straps
doesn't look to me like the Way Forwards. I'm a lot happier
to wear mine in the winter, but on a day like today it's
just making what should be a complete pleasure less so.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

On Mon, 10 May 2004 14:48:02 +0100 someone who may be David Cowie
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

I have a Burley trailer arriving soon and was wondering
if it's necessary for helmets ? Given most riding will be
sans-traffic.

I assume you mean sans-motor-traffic?

Quoted message said:

It's bad enough trying to get them to wear hats in their
pram, can't imagine what it'll be like for helmets
(although the strap will help).

Hats can be useful in cycle trailers. They keep the sun off
more than tinted plastic windows.

Helmets are not much use in cycle trailers. The children
will be strapped in, so if the trailer turns over they
should not hit their heads on anything. If something hits
the trailer and punctures it then a helmet is not likely to
do much extra for the child.

Quoted message said:

I always wear a helmet and favour Giro. I would want to
invest the same care in the kids,

You are assuming that it is care.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number
F566DA0E I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK
government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

in message <[email hidden]>, David Cowie

(') said:

I have a Burley trailer arriving soon and was wondering if
it's necessary for helmets ?

Helmets are never necessary. There are circumstances in
which they are reasonably likely to be effective, and others
where they will do little or no good.

Quoted message said:

Given most riding will be sans-traffic. It's bad enough
trying to get them to wear hats in their pram, can't
imagine what it'll be like for helmets (although the strap
will help).

It's one of the situations where wearing a helmet might do
some good. If you were cycling in traffic there'd be little
point, but in non-traffic situations at the sort of
trundling speed you'll be going with kids in the trailer a
helmet should be strong enough to be effective.

Quoted message said:

I always wear a helmet and favour Giro. I would want to
invest the same care in the kids, but welcome arguments as
to how necessary they are considering the roll cage etc.

With the kids strapped in, if the trailer inverted, would
the rollbar keep their heads clear of the ground at all
stages in the inversion? If you can confidently say it
would, then no need for helmets.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

;; Friends don't send friends HTML formatted emails.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Simon Brooke said:

With the kids strapped in, if the trailer inverted, would
the rollbar keep their heads clear of the ground at all
stages in the inversion? If you can confidently say it
would, then no need for helmets.

Of course, helmets are worn in cars with roll cages partly
because impact with the roll cage may be serious. I suspect
--- but I may be wrong --- that a bike helmet would be in a
region more likely to be effective when hitting a smoothly
curved region like a roll bar and spreading the impact a
little, and it's hard to see how it could make things
worse. It's pretty standard racing practice now to use
confor foam on roll cage members, and that's not unlike
bike helmet material.

Of course, back outside hysterical fears land, quite how
you'd get enough energy into a roll for this to matter, and
how it would be any different from rolling a buggy, and how
indeed you'd get enough energy to even roll a trailer in the
first place, I don't know. Before reading this froup I
didn't fully get the ``if you convince people it needs
protective clothing they'll thing it's risky and stop
anyway'' meme, but it does seem very compelling. And any
argument about heads and roll bars on bikes goes tenfold for
heads and childseat sides in cars.

ian

David Cowie said:

I have a Burley trailer arriving soon and was wondering if
it's necessary for helmets ? Given most riding will be sans-
traffic. It's bad enough trying to get them to wear hats
in their pram, can't imagine what it'll be like for
helmets (although the strap will help).

I always wear a helmet and favour Giro. I would want to
invest the same care in the kids, but welcome arguments as
to how necessary they are considering the roll cage etc.

Soon to be on my bike again !!!!

We had a Burley d'lite trailer for about ten years and there
wasn't any time when it got anywhere near rolling over. In
fact I can't even recall ever lifting a wheel of the ground
and that included hammering down alpine passes. I'm not sure
I could have rolled it even if I tried. The kids were always
strapped in, mainly to keep them under control ;-) but
*never* wore helmets. They would have been totally
superfluous.

John B

On Mon, 10 May 2004 20:41:55 +0100, JohnB <[email hidden]> wrote in
message <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

We had a Burley d'lite trailer for about ten years and
there wasn't any time when it got anywhere near rolling
over. In fact I can't even recall ever lifting a wheel of
the ground and that included hammering down alpine passes.
I'm not sure I could have rolled it even if I tried. The
kids were always strapped in, mainly to keep them under
control ;-) but *never* wore helmets. They would have been
totally superfluous.

Unless, of course, Carl Baxter was around :-(

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

In article <[email hidden]>, Simon

Brooke said:

With the kids strapped in, if the trailer inverted, would
the rollbar keep their heads clear of the ground at all
stages in the inversion? If you can confidently say it
would, then no need for helmets.

The Burleys which we use for hire are - IMVHO - the best and
safest trailers I have ever used. I happily allow my number
3 son (a professional hooligan) to take gorgeous (our only
grandson) out in one without supervision.

--
A T (Sandy) Morton on the Bicycle Island In the Global
Village millport.netmillport.netOpen ↗

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by David Cowie
I have a Burley trailer arriving soon and was wondering if
it's necessary for helmets ? Given most riding will be sans-
traffic. It's bad enough trying to get them to wear hats in
their pram, can't imagine what it'll be like for helmets
(although the strap will help).

I have a Phillips kiddiecarrier trailer for my 3yo.
Under most circumstances a helmut is superfluous while riding in the trailer. The trailer has been overturned once with her in it...Her older sibling was towing it going down a gravel road doing about 30kph and the trailer wheel hit a large rock and flipped onto its side. The child was held securely by the 5 point harness and the frame/roll cage protected her effectively.

However, I always put the helmut on to get my daughter used to the helmut, so that when she starts riding her own bike it will be second nature. That is when she will really need it.

takver said:

David Cowie said:

I have a Burley trailer arriving soon and was
wondering if it's necessary for helmets ? Given most
riding will be sans- traffic. It's bad enough trying
to get them to wear hats in their pram, can't imagine
what it'll be like for helmets (although the strap
will help).

I have a Phillips kiddiecarrier trailer for my 3yo. Under
most circumstances a helmut is superfluous while riding in
the trailer. The trailer has been overturned once with her
in it...Her older sibling was towing it going down a
gravel road doing about 30kph and the trailer wheel hit a
large rock and flipped onto its side.

Oh dear. I wouldn't use such a trailer again then.

Quoted message said:

However, I always put the helmut on to get my daughter
used to the helmut, so that when she starts riding her own
bike it will be second nature. That is when she will
really need it.

I think better advice would be to look before pulling the
garage door down.

John B

in message <[email hidden]>, Ian G Batten

(') said:

Of course, back outside hysterical fears land, quite how
you'd get enough energy into a roll for this to matter,
and how it would be any different from rolling a buggy,
and how indeed you'd get enough energy to even roll a
trailer in the first place, I don't know.

I have frequently rolled a luggage trailer (a 'Bike Hod'😉.
It isn't hard to do. Mind you, the Bike Hod, which hitches
to the seat post, is probably more unstable than a trailer
that hitches to the dropouts. But a downhill corner taken at
anything above 35mph is likely to flip a Bike Hod, and on
rough surfaces much less.

Any dual track trailer has different cornering dynamics from
a single track vehicle like a bicycle. The bicycle counters
the centrifugal force by leaning into it, the trailer can't.
Ultimately it will either skid sideways or flip. That's why
my next trailer will be a single track, like a BOB Yak.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

[ This .sig intentionally left blank ]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Simon Brooke said:

I have frequently rolled a luggage trailer (a 'Bike Hod'😉.
It isn't hard to do. Mind you, the Bike Hod, which hitches
to the seat post, is probably more unstable than a trailer
that hitches to the dropouts. But a downhill corner taken
at anything above 35mph is likely to flip a Bike Hod, and
on rough surfaces much less.

That's interesting: I didn't realise that. Although
realistically, people with small children in the trailer are
unlikely to be doing 35mph downhill corners, and would hit
comfort limits pretty quickly over rough ground.

Quoted message said:

Any dual track trailer has different cornering dynamics
from a single track vehicle like a bicycle. The bicycle
counters the centrifugal force by leaning into it, the
trailer can't. Ultimately it will either skid sideways or
flip. That's why my next trailer will be a single track,
like a BOB Yak.

The single-wheel tagalong I have for my younger daughter
appears good on corners, albeit not at 35mph.

ian

in message <[email hidden]>, Ian G Batten

(') said:

In article <28t6n1-
[email hidden]>, Simon Brooke

Quoted message said:

I have frequently rolled a luggage trailer (a 'Bike
Hod'😉. It isn't hard to do. Mind you, the Bike Hod, which
hitches to the seat post, is probably more unstable than
a trailer that hitches to the dropouts. But a downhill
corner taken at anything above 35mph is likely to flip a
Bike Hod, and on rough surfaces much less.

That's interesting: I didn't realise that. Although
realistically, people with small children in the trailer
are unlikely to be doing 35mph downhill corners, and would
hit comfort limits pretty quickly over rough ground.

The Bike Hod is fundamentally designed as a shopping trailer
and is probably fine for that. The high hitch point is very
convenient but almost certainly contributes to instability.
The other notable fault in my opinion is that the wheel
bearings were not servicable, so when they died the whole
thing was scrap. Apart from that it's a good trailer - it
carries a lot of gear, it's easy to hitch and unhitch, it's
very easy to manhandle when unhitched, it's exceedingly
visible from the rear. It's also relatively light and has
very good carrying capacity. For an urban shopping and
utility trailer I think it's probably very good.

I used it when as a poor research student I was doing
fieldwork all over the country and carrying a fair bit of
gear with me, so it was doing long distances on fast rural
roads. The first couple of times it went over were deeply
scarey, but after that I kind of got used to it - it never
caused me to fall off, and the bag was tough enough to
survive being dragged along the tarmac reasonably well. It
got a bit tatty but none of the contents were ever damaged.

The current production model comes with optional pneumatic
tyres which I suspect would improve stability. <URL:http://www.twoplustwo.uk.com/gtrailers/bike-
hod.html>

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

;; in faecibus sapiens rheum
propagabit

David Cowie <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I have a Burley trailer arriving soon and was wondering if
it's necessary for helmets ? Given most riding will be sans-
traffic. It's bad enough trying to get them to wear hats
in their pram, can't imagine what it'll be like for
helmets (although the strap will help).

My daughter Ellen, who is 14 months old, doesn't wear one
in the trailer (Burley Solo). There are no helmets that fit
her small head. Yes, there are helmets where the little
plastic ring on the inside of the helmet can be adjusted
small enough to fit her head, but then there's a huge gap
between her head and the foam. I know enough about helmets
to know that helmets have to fit properly to have any
effectiveness at all, and having a helmet where the foam is
nowhere near her head is not a good fit, no matter when the
manufacturer may say.

I have only rolled it once, when a dozy Japanese tourist
decided to panic and backtrack into my trailer when I
rang my bell as I was about to ride behind her. Ellen was
still in her car safety seat then, so no damage done at
all. She just looked a big puzzled when I put the traile
back upright.

When she actually gets big enough that I can get a helmet
that fits her properly, I'll have to decide if I think it's
worth trying to get her to wear it.

-Myra

PS As far as hats go, we just use jackets/coats with hoods.
They can't pull that off so easily!

In message <[email hidden]>, JohnB
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

David Cowie said:

I have a Burley trailer arriving soon and was wondering
if it's necessary for helmets ? Given most riding will be
sans-traffic. It's bad enough trying to get them to wear
hats in their pram, can't imagine what it'll be like for
helmets (although the strap will help).

I always wear a helmet and favour Giro. I would want
to invest the same care in the kids, but welcome
arguments as to how necessary they are considering the
roll cage etc.

Soon to be on my bike again !!!!

We had a Burley d'lite trailer for about ten years and
there wasn't any time when it got anywhere near
rolling over.

I've once flipped my Chariot trailer onto it's side, the
trailer was unloaded at the time, going down a moderate
hill, at a moderate speed on a path, I clipped the corner of
the bend and hit a bump (covered rock, old stump?) of some
sort and it flipped onto the side.

Loaded, even with just one kiddie would have made this much
less likely (given my experience with loaded and unladen
load trailers) as it makes them much more stable. but I can'
say I've even come close to this when towing Elinor. For one
thing you probably are more careful when towing them as well

--
Chris French, Leeds