The perfect black bean sauce

Julian Vrieslander <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:julianvREMOVE_THIS_PART-
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

The sauce had a complex flavor, just the right amount of
heat, and an unusual consistency. In all of the recipes
for black bean sauce that I have seen, corn starch is used
as the thickener. But Hing Loon's sauce was more viscous -
it was stickier, stretching into tendrils, more like the
effect you get with gumbo file or okra. Does anyone know
how they get this texture?

Maybe I should have asked, but I am always a bit shy about
asking a restaurant to divulge their secrets (and most of
the time they don't).

Perhaps the sauce was made like in the recipe below? In the
pan with the food stuffs, not added from a bottle. I'm not
saying the bean sauce below would taste like what you ate
but possibly it was made in a similar method.

Beef and Peppers in Black Bean Sauce

A Cantonese recipe

Ingredients:

4 ounces Sirloin beef sliced thin or thick steaks 3 green
peppers (or red and green peppers as desired)
1/2 small onion 2 sticks of celery
2/2 teaspoon of salt
3/2 teaspoon soy sauce
4/2 teaspoon MSG (if desired) 1 teaspoon Chinese salted
black beans 2 cloves garlic 3 slices ginger
5/2 cup stock or hot water 2 tablespoons oil for cooking

Marinade:
6/4 teaspoon salt
7/2 teaspoon sugar
8/2 tablespoon soy sauce 2 tablespoons oil

Directions: Place the beef in a bowl, and stir in the
marinade ingredients. Marinate beef for approximately thirty
minutes. While beef is marinating, prepare the vegetables.
Cut peppers, onion, and celery into 1/2 inch pieces. Mix the
garlic cloves and ginger with the black beans and chop
finely. Heat wok and add 2 tablespoons oil. When oil is
ready, add 1/2 of the black bean, garlic, and ginger
mixture. Mix and add the beef. Stir-fry until the beef is
approximately 60 - 65 percent cooked. Remove the beef and
set aside. Add the rest of the bean mixture, onions and
celery. Stir-fry for 3 - 4 minutes and add the peppers. Stir-
fry for a couple of minutes longer and add 1/2 cup of stock
or hot water. Bring to a boil, cover and simmer for a couple
of minutes. Add MSG if desired. Mix, taste, and adjust the
seasoning if necessary. Add the beef. Mix and serve
immediately.

--
Once during Prohibition I was forced to live for days on
nothing but food and water.
--------
FIELDS, W. C.

Julian Vrieslander said:

Tonight Cindy and I were wandering in the ID (Seattle's
International District). We stopped for dinner at Hing
Loon Seafood Restaurant. One of their specialties is clams
in black bean sauce, and after trying it I can understand
why. Wonderful stuff. Lots of fresh clams (one of the
benefits of living in Seattle), and the best damn black
bean sauce I have ever tried.

The sauce had a complex flavor, just the right amount of
heat, and an unusual consistency. In all of the recipes
for black bean sauce that I have seen, corn starch is used
as the thickener. But Hing Loon's sauce was more viscous -
it was stickier, stretching into tendrils, more like the
effect you get with gumbo file or okra. Does anyone know
how they get this texture?

Maybe I should have asked, but I am always a bit shy about
asking a restaurant to divulge their secrets (and most of
the time they don't).

Possibly arrowroot, or maybe a gum like agar. Arrowoot can
be used in place of corn flour.
culinarycafe.comArrowroot.htmlOpen ↗

I've been cooking asian recipes for decades and replicating
restautant recipes (particularly chinese) is very elusive.

gtoomey

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

Julian Vrieslander said:

Tonight Cindy and I were wandering in the ID (Seattle's
International District). We stopped for dinner at Hing
Loon Seafood Restaurant. One of their specialties is clams
in black bean sauce, and after trying it I can understand
why. Wonderful stuff. Lots of fresh clams (one of the
benefits of living in Seattle), and the best damn black
bean sauce I have ever tried.

The sauce had a complex flavor, just the right amount of
heat, and an unusual consistency. In all of the recipes
for black bean sauce that I have seen, corn starch is used
as the thickener. But Hing Loon's sauce was more viscous -
it was stickier, stretching into tendrils, more like the
effect you get with gumbo file or okra. Does anyone know
how they get this texture?

Maybe I should have asked, but I am always a bit shy about
asking a restaurant to divulge their secrets (and most of
the time they don't).

Only thing I've seen that's sticky and stretchy is Natto,
but that's Japanese ynest.comnattoeng.htmOpen ↗. Maybe
they used it as a thickener...

In article <[email hidden]>,

hahabogus said:

Perhaps the sauce was made like in the recipe below? In
the pan with the food stuffs, not added from a bottle. I'm
not saying the bean sauce below would taste like what you
ate but possibly it was made in a similar method.

I doubt it was a bottled sauce. Most of the recipes I've
seen start with black beans or fermented black beans. I've
never used the fermented kind - perhaps it provides the
viscosity that we noticed.

--
Julian Vrieslander

"Julian Vrieslander" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

hahabogus said:

Perhaps the sauce was made like in the recipe below? In
the pan with the food stuffs, not added from a bottle.
I'm not saying the bean sauce

below

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would taste like what you ate but possibly it was made
in a similar

method.

Quoted message said:

I doubt it was a bottled sauce. Most of the recipes I've
seen start with black beans or fermented black beans. I've
never used the fermented kind - perhaps it provides the
viscosity that we noticed.

Surely you've used the fermented kind; otherwise it would be
a Mexican or South American dish and not Chinese. Maybe
you're mistaking the dried kind with the wet ones? They're
both fermented.

Peter

perhaps it provides the viscosity that we noticed.

Quoted message said:

I know of the viscosity of which you speak. No, it has
nothing to do with the black beans, dry or wet. I have asked
Chinese people I know who cook but they are not able to tell
me because they cook at home and are not restaurant cooks. I
am going to try Arrowroot as somebody suggested but I
haven't been able to get that viscosity either and I cook
Chinese all the time. Not all Chinese food has it, but if
done right it is perfect and sticks sufficiently to the
food. I can say that I recently switched from cornstarch to
tapioca flour which is also found in Chinese grocery stores
and believe tapioca gives a better consistency. Perhaps
Arrowroot is better yet. I tried to ask this very question
at a vocational training school that sold food to the public
but didn't get an answer or a good anwer.

Explaining viscosity of a sauce is not an easy thing to do.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Peter Dy said:

"Julian Vrieslander"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:julianvREMOVE_THIS_PART-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I doubt it was a bottled sauce. Most of the recipes I've
seen start with black beans or fermented black beans.
I've never used the fermented kind - perhaps it provides
the viscosity that we noticed.

Surely you've used the fermented kind; otherwise it would
be a Mexican or South American dish and not Chinese. Maybe
you're mistaking the dried kind with the wet ones? They're
both fermented.

I've never actually tried to make Chinese black bean sauce -
just looked at recipes. Some of these called for fermented
beans, but (if I recall correctly) some just called for
dried or canned black beans. Maybe the authors are assuming
that a Chinese variety will be used, and that this stuff
will be the fermented kind.

--
Julian Vrieslander

occupant said:

I know of the viscosity of which you speak. No, it has
nothing to do with the black beans, dry or wet. I have
asked Chinese people I know who cook but they are not able
to tell me because they cook at home and are not restaurant
cooks. I am going to try Arrowroot as somebody suggested
but I haven't been able to get that viscosity either and I
cook Chinese all the time. Not all Chinese food has it, but
if done right it is perfect and sticks sufficiently to the
food. I can say that I recently switched from cornstarch to
tapioca flour which is also found in Chinese grocery stores
and believe tapioca gives a better consistency. Perhaps
Arrowroot is better yet.

Arrowroot breaks down (loses it's thickening power) when
heated so only add it the last minute or two of cooking.

-sw

"Julian Vrieslander"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message >

Quoted message said:

I've never actually tried to make Chinese black bean sauce
- just looked at recipes. Some of these called for
fermented beans, but (if I recall correctly) some just
called for dried or canned black beans.

Fermented black beans and salted black beans are the same
thing. Sometimes you'll see them labeled one way, sometimes
the other. Around here (Baltimore) they seem to be most
often labeled salted black beans.

Hal Laurent Baltimore

"Julian Vrieslander" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>, "Peter

Dy said:

"Julian Vrieslander"
<[email hidden]> wrote in
message

news:julianvREMOVE_THIS_PART-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I doubt it was a bottled sauce. Most of the recipes
I've seen start with black beans or fermented black
beans. I've never used the fermented kind - perhaps it
provides the viscosity that we noticed.

Surely you've used the fermented kind; otherwise it
would be a Mexican

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

South American dish and not Chinese. Maybe you're
mistaking the dried

kind

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with the wet ones? They're both fermented.

I've never actually tried to make Chinese black bean sauce
- just looked at recipes. Some of these called for
fermented beans, but (if I recall correctly) some just
called for dried or canned black beans. Maybe the authors
are assuming that a Chinese variety will be used, and that
this stuff will be the fermented kind.

Ah, ok.

Peter

Steve Hertz said:

Arrowroot breaks down (loses it's thickening power) when
heated so only add it the last minute or two of cooking.

-sw

It also has a texture that some people describe as slimy,
but I describe as slippery without the fullness of taste
that you get from butter. It is a good way to add the last
little bit of thickness to a sauce that has not been reduced
sufficiently.

JJ

"Hal Laurent" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Julian Vrieslander"
<[email hidden]> wrote in
message >

Quoted message said:

I've never actually tried to make Chinese black bean
sauce - just looked at recipes. Some of these called for
fermented beans, but (if I recall correctly) some just
called for dried or canned black beans.

Fermented black beans and salted black beans are the same
thing. Sometimes you'll see them labeled one way,
sometimes the other. Around here (Baltimore) they seem to
be most often labeled salted black beans.

Hal Laurent Baltimore

With all these differing names...We are talking about Black
fermented Soy Beans aren't we?

--
Once during Prohibition I was forced to live for days on
nothing but food and water.
--------
FIELDS, W. C.

"Peter Dy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Julian Vrieslander"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:julianvREMOVE_THIS_PART-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Peter Dy said:

"Julian Vrieslander"
<[email hidden]> wrote in
message

news:julianvREMOVE_THIS_PART-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> I doubt it was a bottled sauce. Most of the recipes
> I've seen start with black beans or fermented black
> beans. I've never used the fermented kind - perhaps
> it provides the viscosity that we noticed.

Surely you've used the fermented kind; otherwise it
would be a Mexican

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

South American dish and not Chinese. Maybe you're
mistaking the dried

kind

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with the wet ones? They're both fermented.

I've never actually tried to make Chinese black bean
sauce - just looked at recipes. Some of these called for
fermented beans, but (if I recall correctly) some just
called for dried or canned black beans. Maybe the
authors are assuming that a Chinese variety will be
used, and that this stuff will be the fermented kind.

Ah, ok.

I had meant to add: Yes, I think the recipes you looked at
were assuming the Chinese variety, ie. black, fermented
soy beans.

Clams with black bean sauce is horribly easy to make, btw.
You should try it, especially since fresh clams are easy to
get in Seattle. Stir-fry coarsely chopped ginger, scallions,
and black beans until fragrant. Add the clams. Add a touch
of soy sauce, some rice wine, and chicken stock or water.
Let cook covered for a bit, until the clams open. Remove the
clams, and add a mixed starch and water solution to the
sauce. Heat a bit, then pour the sauce over the clams.

Peter

"hahabogus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Hal Laurent" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Julian Vrieslander"
<[email hidden]> wrote in
message >

Quoted message said:

I've never actually tried to make Chinese black bean
sauce - just

looked

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at recipes. Some of these called for fermented beans,
but (if I recall correctly) some just called for dried
or canned black beans.

Fermented black beans and salted black beans are the
same thing. Sometimes you'll see them labeled one way,
sometimes the other. Around here (Baltimore) they seem
to be most often labeled salted black beans.

Hal Laurent Baltimore

With all these differing names...We are talking about
Black fermented Soy Beans aren't we?

Yes; "chi3" in Chinese.

Peter

In article <[email hidden]>,

Peter Dy said:

Clams with black bean sauce is horribly easy to make, btw.
You should try it, especially since fresh clams are easy
to get in Seattle. Stir-fry coarsely chopped ginger,
scallions, and black beans until fragrant. Add the clams.
Add a touch of soy sauce, some rice wine, and chicken
stock or water. Let cook covered for a bit, until the
clams open. Remove the clams, and add a mixed starch and
water solution to the sauce. Heat a bit, then pour the
sauce over the clams.

Sounds great - I'll have to try this. Thanks for the reply.

--
Julian Vrieslander

In article <[email hidden]>, "Peter Dy"

Quoted message said:

"hahabogus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Hal Laurent" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Julian Vrieslander"
<[email hidden]> wrote in
message >

> I've never actually tried to make Chinese black bean
> sauce - just

looked

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> at recipes. Some of these called for fermented beans,
> but (if I recall correctly) some just called for
> dried or canned black beans.

Fermented black beans and salted black beans are the
same thing. Sometimes you'll see them labeled one way,
sometimes the other. Around here (Baltimore) they seem
to be most often labeled salted black beans.

Hal Laurent Baltimore

With all these differing names...We are talking about
Black fermented Soy Beans aren't we?

Yes; "chi3" in Chinese.

Izzat 'natto' in Japanese?

monroe(fluent in 0 languages)

"Julian Vrieslander" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>, "Peter

Dy said:

Clams with black bean sauce is horribly easy to make,
btw. You should

try

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it, especially since fresh clams are easy to get in
Seattle. Stir-fry coarsely chopped ginger, scallions,
and black beans until fragrant. Add

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

clams. Add a touch of soy sauce, some rice wine, and
chicken stock or water. Let cook covered for a bit,
until the clams open. Remove the

clams,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and add a mixed starch and water solution to the sauce.
Heat a bit,

then

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pour the sauce over the clams.

Sounds great - I'll have to try this. Thanks for the
reply.

I forgot to mention chopped garlic!! The trio of black
beans, scallions, and garlic is a classic. The addition of
ginger works especially well with seafood though.

Well, but you said you've looked at recipes for it, which
I'm sure include garlic. Still, just wanted to stress that
it's hecka easy to make.

Peter

PS. Yes, I said "hecka".

"Monroe, of course..." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>, "Peter

Dy said:

"hahabogus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Hal Laurent" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

>
> "Julian Vrieslander"
> <[email hidden]> wrote

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> message >
>
>> I've never actually tried to make Chinese black
>> bean sauce - just

looked

Quoted message said:

>> at recipes. Some of these called for fermented
>> beans, but (if I

recall

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> correctly) some just called for dried or canned
>> black beans.
>
> Fermented black beans and salted black beans are the
> same thing. Sometimes you'll see them labeled one
> way, sometimes the other. Around here (Baltimore)
> they seem to be most often labeled salted black
> beans.
>
> Hal Laurent Baltimore
>
>
>

With all these differing names...We are talking about
Black fermented

Soy

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Beans aren't we?

Yes; "chi3" in Chinese.

Izzat 'natto' in Japanese?

I don't know what the Japanese call Chinese black fermented
beans, but "natto" is a different word using different
characters. The second character is "bean"; the first
character, "nat," means in Chinese, among other things, "to
sew close stitches (over a patch, etc)", which maybe refers
to how natto has those thin strings?

Quoted message said:

monroe(fluent in 0 languages)

Peter (has no Japanese dictionary)

"Peter Dy" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

PS. Yes, I said "hecka".

I think you spelt heckofa wrong.

--
Once during Prohibition I was forced to live for days on
nothing but food and water.
--------
FIELDS, W. C.