General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Vitamin safety vs prescription drug safety

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
8 May 2004
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11 May 2004
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Anth
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  1. 1st points I would like to make are this :-

    (1) Prescription drugs are safe - we are told and yet there
    are thousands of reported cases of adverse effects with
    them per year.
    (2) Vitamins are unsafe, and yet despite the facts that
    100,000,000 people use them per year in the USA
    there's maybe 49000 reported cases of effects
    associated with them.
    (3) Vaccines are safe - there's very little reported cases
    of of adverse effects with them per year, and yet people
    deem vaccines are unsafe.

    So to clear definition up, this is what I would like to say.

    (4) Prescription drugs are 'safe'
    (5) Vitamins are 'safe'
    (6) Vaccines are 'safe'.

    If you scramble the points around then you are clearly
    being biased using alt med vs mainstream definitions. Think
    about it.....

    Other points I would like to generalise with Vitamins have a
    higher margin of safety with respect to drugs from a
    concentration point of view, it is easier to overdose on
    drugs than it is with vitamins. (Of course there will be
    exceptions)

    So why is CODEX attacking our vitamins? Anth

  2. To what 'truth' do you belon in?

    Key
    (S) vitamins vaccines (V) Prescription drugs (D) 1
    safe, 0 unsafe

    SVD 000 all unsafe 001 drugs safe vaccines vitamins not 010
    vaccines safe vs supplements & drugs not 011 vitamins safer
    drugs vaccines not 100 vitamins safe vs (vaccines and
    drugs) not 101 vitamins safe drugs not vaccines safe 110
    vitamins safe vaccines safe drugs not 111 vitamins,
    vaccines drugs all safe

    I'm sure this 'think' can be applied to other things also.

    Anth

  3. (and CODEX which is a load of cack!)

    findarticles.com2003 Feb
    March/97994380/p1/article.jhtml?term=

    Nutritional medicine and addictions: an important over-
    looked component in detoxification & recovery. (Letters to
    the Editor). Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients, Feb-
    March, 2003

    Editor: People with addictions to alcohol and drugs may be
    considered some of the most under-nourished and nutrient
    deficient populations in healthcare. Treatments for these
    groups typically involve pharmacotherapy (medications),
    counseling support services, and perhaps acupuncture
    (depending on the treatment center). The use of
    supplemental vitamins and minerals for these patients
    generally falls under the area of diet and perhaps rest,
    instead of actually advising them on "adequate" nutritional
    supplementation. Research suggests that specific vitamins
    may actually be used as an "add-on" treatment (similar to
    medications) for these individuals irrespective of whether
    a person is deficient or not. For example, the B-vitamin
    niacin (B3) is typically used by physicians to improve
    cholesterol levels in patients and not for the prevention
    or treatment of vitamin B3 deficiency. Moreover, evidence
    also suggests that nutritionalr without a statement
    regarding upper safe limits.

    As has been stated in previous communication with the US
    CODEX delegation, there is an assumption that there is a
    problem that needs to be fixed. Exactly what are the
    documented side effects of food supplements consumed in high
    doses and what is their incidence in the general population?
    Is CODEX protecting two percent of the mega-dose vitamin E
    users from headaches, or what? Would the establishment of an
    "upper limit" be expected to eliminate or just reduce the
    occurrence of side effects?

    The CODEX Draft notes that the Codex Guidelines for Vitamin
    and Mineral Supplements will not, in any way, adversely
    affect the availability of safe and truthfully labeled
    supplement products in the US marketplace or to US
    consumers. While this sentence is encouraging to consumers
    of food supplements, it is incomplete. There are other
    concerns regarding the effect of CODEX.

    The very establishment of upper limits on food supplements
    would likely scare away consumers from these products at a
    time when conventional medicine is beginning to warm up to
    the idea of the value of food supplements for health
    promotion. The first press releases issued upon the
    establishment of upper limits are likely to create a
    mistaken belief that food supplements are relatively unsafe.
    Consumers are likely to assume that since, let's say 2000
    milligrams of vitamin C is the upper safe limit, that 2000
    milligrams is the toxic level and they should consume far
    less so as to never experience side effects. In fact, if
    2000 milligrams were established as a relatively safe upper
    limit, it would likely have a safety margin built into it.
    Exceeding the upper limit may produce no side effects
    whatsoever in a majority of consumers. The consumer will
    probably not be told that the upper limit is the lower
    threshold for side effects. I have observed adults who have
    never taken vitamin C supplements experience diarrh ea at
    doses as low as 500 milligrams.

    The CODEX Draft states "Maximum amounts of vitamins and
    minerals in vitamin and mineral supplements per daily
    portion of consumption as recommended by the manufacturer
    should take the following criteria into account: (a)
    upper safe levels of vitamins and minerals established by
    scientific risk assessment based on generally accepted
    scientific data, taking into consideration, as
    appropriate, the varying degrees of sensitivity of
    different consumer groups." Just how would CODEX address
    the variable nutritional needs of humans of mixed genetic
    and environmental backgrounds? Excessive folic acid may
    mask a vitamin B12 deficiency, but fertile women who seek
    motherhood need extra folic acid (some experts say up to
    2000 mcg) to reduce the risk of birth defects in their
    offspring. So is the caveat to be aware of a masked B12
    deficiency to be discarded for women who take mega-dose
    folic acid? An upper limit of 2000 IU for vitamin D has
    been proposed. How would that accommodate blacks living
    in northern climates (near the Canadian border) whose
    skin pigmentation reduces the production of vitamin D
    from sunlight?

    Self-care of illness and disease may be inappropriately
    discouraged by the establishment of a safe upper limit.
    While self-care is not likely to be promoted by any health
    professionals, frankly, many consumers have no health
    insurance or suffer with disorders for which conventional
    medicine has no answers. The fact is that informed consumers
    who seek alternatives to the physician-promoted
    pharmaceutical drugs may not be able to obtain food
    supplements in convenient or cost-effective doses for the
    self-care of disease if upper safe limits are established.
    For reasons of liability, manufacturers of food supplements
    are likely to steer clear of providing vitamins and minerals
    in doses that exceed the upper limit. Thus consumers who
    wish or need to consume food supplements in mega doses may
    experience increased costs to obtain nutrients in small-dose
    pills. The products would be available, but just not
    convenient nor affordable.

    The CODEX Draft states: "Supplements of some nutrients, such
    as vitamin A and selenium, can be harmful if taken in large
    amounts." This statement is again misleading if not a
    falsehood. Vitamin A is potentially toxic to the liver, but
    this problem only occurs in about 30 to 40 cases a year
    while millions of Americans are believed to be deficient in
    vitamin A. Selenium is potentially toxic, but selenium
    poisoning has only occurred in artificial circumstances such
    as when strip mining exposed mineral beds and increased
    elemental mineral levels in drinking water. Organically-
    bound selenium provided in plant foods (i.e. garlic) has
    never been demonstrated to be toxic regardless of dose.
    CODEX advocates science-based review of supplements but
    offers examples which are inaccurate and disparaging.

    The CODEX Draft states that "Some people need a vitamin-
    mineral supplement to meet specific nutrient needs." This
    sentence needs to be changed to "most if not all people at
    some stage of their life will need vitamin-mineral
    supplements to meet specific nutrient needs."

    Growing children would be less healthy if we did not already
    fortify our overly-processed foods. All childbearing women
    require supplemental nutrition. All older adults are at
    greater risk for age-related disease and malabsorption and
    should supplement their diet. All full-grown males need to
    chelate iron from their system to avoid iron overload.
    Recent studies indicate 40% of Americans are deficient in
    vitamin D, 40% short on vitamin B12, 80% deficient in
    magnesium, 80% deficient in essential fatty acids and the
    entire human population suffers from a genetic failure to
    produce an enzyme that naturally produces vitamin C.

    How can it be said in the CODEX Draft that "Most people who
    have access to a balanced diet can usually obtain all the
    nutrients they require from their normal diet. Because foods
    contain many substances that promote health, people should
    therefore be encouraged to select a balanced diet from food
    before considering any vitamin and mineral supplement. In
    cases where the diet is insufficient or where consumers
    consider their diet requires supplementation, vitamin and
    mineral supplements serve to supplement the daily diet"?
    This statement is out of date and patently untrue. Even the
    American Medical Association has now published reports which
    advocate multivitamin usage for the population at large.
    This is further evidence that CODEX is currently out of step
    with a rapidly changing body of nutritional science.

    The CODEX Draft says: "The absence of science-based Codex
    guidelines, however, could adversely affect the ability of
    US manufacturers to compete in the international
    marketplace." How so? This sentence goes unexplained. There
    are no CODEX guidelines in force today and manufacturers are
    not impeded from entering the international marketplace. Is
    this another non-problem in search of a fix? Please explain.

    Are we to assume that if an upper safe limit is established
    by the world community, and US CODEX does not agree, that
    US manufacturers would be at some disadvantage? All US
    manufacturers need do is reduce the dosage in their
    products to comply with foreign requirements, which is
    hardly much of an inconvenience. This would likely result
    in higher-dose US products being coveted by the overseas
    market. This is the case today where Canada and various
    European countries limit the types or dosage of food
    supplements. Foreign travelers in the USA often purchase
    loads of food supplements to take home. The US-made
    products are coveted, not rejected by consumers. It is only
    the foreign governments, largely influenced by
    pharmaceutical interests, which inhibit a free market.

    The CODEX Draft states: "In the spirit of the protection of
    international fair trade practices and the science-based
    resolution of international trade disputes, we support the
    development of CODEX guidelines for vitamin and mineral
    supplements that do not unduly limit consumer access to safe
    and tru medicines have protective properties in the body
    including the brain and nervous system.

    For several decades now it has been documented about some of
    the potential dangers of nutritional deficiencies. For
    example, chronic vitamin B1 (or thiamine) deficiency causes
    a well-known neurological complication from alcoholism.
    Vitamin B12 and folic acid deficiencies may also be a
    culprit in anemia (megaloblastic) and in cases of
    neurological and psychiatric conditions. But how about the
    remaining vitamins and minerals, amino acids, and essential
    fatty acids?

    Zhou found long-term heroin abusers who used large
    quantities of this street drug caused a decrease in vitamins
    C, E, beta-carotene and an increase in damaging "oxidative
    stresses" (a biological equivalent of rusting in the body).
    The researchers advised that "the heroin abusers should
    acquire sufficient quantity of antioxidants (vitamin C, E,
    beta-carotene) so as to abate the injuries to their bodies."

    In a study of chronic alcoholics, Majumdar discovered that
    24 out of 25 patients (96%) were found to be deficient in
    blood levels of vitamin C. Intravenous vitamin C injections
    (500mg/day) were given to these patients for 5 days in order
    to help replenish their bodies. Surprisingly, the levels did
    not return to within the normal range in 16 out of the 25
    (64%) with this strength and dosing schedule of intravenous
    vitamin C treatment. According to the researchers: "it is
    suggested that conventional detoxification therapy for
    alcohol withdrawal syndrome should include poly-vitamins
    including vitamin C. It is further suggested that more
    prolonged replenishment therapy with vitamin C, preferably
    by intravenous route, may be needed to normalize blood
    levels in some chronic alcoholic patients."

    It is important to note that vitamin C is vital for brain
    function. The amount of vitamin C in cerebral spinal fluid
    (CSF) is 3-5 times higher than that in plasma, and in brain
    cells the levels may be another 3-5 times higher than the
    CSF. Interestingly, one of the first early warning symptoms
    of vitamin C deficiency is "fatigue."

    Vitamin C may also act as a valuable aid in detoxification
    treatment. Evangelou found patients who received high dose
    vitamin C orally either alone or combined with traditional
    treatment for heroin addiction manifested major withdrawal
    symptoms ranging from 10% to 16.6% of the subjects. In
    contrast, people who received conventional medical therapy
    alone (without vitamin C) experienced major withdrawal in
    56.6% of the cases. In addition, after four weeks of
    followup, the patients receiving vitamin C expressed vivid
    feelings of well-being and a strong improvement in appetite
    and psychokinetic behavior without any signs of depression
    or insomnia in contrast to the control group.

    Giannini investigated the effects of vitamin C in 40 men
    with acute phencyclidine (PCP) intoxication. The patients
    were randomly assigned to intramuscular injections of the
    neuroleptic medication Haldol, vitamin C, or Haldol plus
    ascorbic acid. The addition of vitamin C to Haldol enhanced
    the activity of Haldol in counter-acting PCP intoxication.

    Several other nutrients besides vitamin C may benefit drug
    and alcohol addictions. It is important to stress that an
    imbalance or deficiency of any one nutrient has the
    potential to act as an obstacle in the recovery process. For
    example, a vitamin B1 deficiency cannot be corrected or
    helped by giving another B-vitamin, or vitamin C, etc.
    Surprisingly, the majority of standard detox and recovery
    centers do not incorporate, advise, or suggest appropriate
    nutritional supplementation or offer routine laboratory
    testing in this area.

    It may be important to incorporate optimal replenishment and
    nutritional regimens for people who are in various stages of
    addiction detoxification and recovery. Eating a well
    balanced diet may not be sufficient. Moreover, when used
    correctly, vitamins have the potential to complement
    standard treatment protocols. My experience in private
    practice has supported this concept including a high safety
    margin. Due to the important role nutrients have on the body
    and mind, and because of the potential negative
    ramifications of nutritional deficiencies, nutritional
    medicines should play a more active role in addiction
    medicine. A good "one-a-day" multi-vitamin and multi-mineral
    supplement(s) should be considered a basic and elementary
    starting point.

    Walter Lemmo, ND

    604-788-8858

    www.lemmo.com

    References

    (1.) Zhou, J., Yan, X., Peng, F., Cai, D., Yuan, H., Sun, L,
    Ding, D., Xu,
    S. (2000) Heroin abuse and nitric oxide, oxidation,
    peroxidation, lipoperoxidation, Biomedical and
    Environmental Sciences, 13, 131-139.

    (2.) Majumdar SK, et al (1981). Vitamin C Utilization
    status in chronic alcoholic patients after short-
    term intravenous therapy. Internat. J Vit. Nutr.
    Res., 51, 274-278.

    (3.) Rebec GV, Pierce CR (1994). A vitamin as
    neuromodulator: ascorbate release into the
    extracellular fluid of the brain regulates dopaminergic
    and glutamatergic transmission. Progress in
    Neurobiology, 43, 537-565

    (4.) Evangelou, A., Kalfakakou, V., Panagiotis, G.,
    Vassilios, K,, Vezyraki,
    P., Iliopoulou. L., and Vadalouka, A. (2000). Ascorbic acid
    (vitamin C) effect on withdrawal syndromo of heroin
    abusers, In Vivo, 14363-366.

    (5.) Giannini, A., J., Loiselle, R., Di Marzio, L., and
    Giannini, M., (1987). Augmentation of haloperidol by
    ascorbic acid in phencyclidino intoxification, American
    Journal of Psychiatry, 144(9), 1207. 1209.

    (6.) Johnston, P., and Chahl, L.(1992). Chronic
    treatment with ascorbic acid inhibits the morphine
    withdrawal response in guinea-pigs, Neuroscience
    Letters, 135, 23-27.

    (7.) Libby, A. and Stone, I., (1977). The hypoascorbemia-
    kwashiorkor approach to drug addiction therapy: A pilot
    study, Presented at the Western Regional Seminar of the
    International Academy of Preventive Medicine, July,
    1977, in San Francisco.

    (8.) Scher, J., Rice, H., Suck-oo, K, DiCamelli, R.,
    O'Connor, H.(1976). Massive vitamin C soon adjunct in
    methadone maintenance and detoxification,
    Orthomolecular Psychiatry, 5(3), 191-198.

    COPYRIGHT 2003 The Townsend Letter Group COPYRIGHT 2003
    Gale Group

  4. Quoted message said:

    1st points I would like to make are this :-

    (1) Prescription drugs are safe - we are told and yet there
    are thousands of reported cases of adverse effects with
    them per year.
    (2) Vitamins are unsafe, and yet despite the facts that
    100,000,000 people use them per year in the USA there's
    maybe 49000 reported cases of effects associated with
    them.
    (3) Vaccines are safe - there's very little reported cases
    of of adverse effects with them per year, and yet
    people deem vaccines are unsafe.

    So to clear definition up, this is what I would like to
    say.

    (1) Prescription drugs are 'safe'

    Appropriately prescribed and with proper medical follow-up,
    they are usually quite safe.

    Quoted message said:

    (2) Vitamins are 'safe'

    Generally speaking, they are safe in dosages at or below the
    RDA. Vitamins are a rather diverse group of Chemicals, so
    generalizing their LD50 is not advised.

    Quoted message said:

    (3) Vaccines are 'safe'

    Oh....My.....Gawd. You said vaccines are safe! Jan Drew is
    going to toss her shrooms over this one!

    Seriously, let me congratulate you on being one of the few
    pro-alts to declare that vaccines are, in general, safe.

    Quoted message said:

    If you scramble the points around then you are clearly
    being biased using alt med vs mainstream definitions. Think
    about it.....

    Other points I would like to generalise with Vitamins have
    a higher margin of safety with respect to drugs from a
    concentration point of view, it is easier to overdose on
    drugs than it is with vitamins. (Of course there will be
    exceptions)

    With drugs, the prescriptive method is to use the minimum
    effective dosage and with a good understanding of the
    risk/reward ratio. With vaccines, the same method applies.

    With Vit-A-Mins, the method is to use Mega-doses to prevent
    diseases which are not known to be diseases of vitamin
    deficiency. The idea is that if the RDA level is "good",
    then more is better & much more is much better.

    Do you know of any MD's saying "Let's give this child a Mega-
    MMR vaccine! 500% of the usual dosage will prevent diseases
    other than Measles, Mumps, and Rubella.' Do you hear MD's
    saying "Take a megadose of these heart meds. If one will
    keep your blood pressure down, taking more will prevent
    diseases not related to heart function."

    The idea of mega dosing overlooks the whole principle of
    risk vs reward as well as efficacy in treating, preventing,
    or palliating diseases not related to vitamin deficiency.
    Why do you want to make the pharmaceutical companies (the
    primary producer of vitamins) richer than they are?

    Quoted message said:

    So why is CODEX attacking our vitamins? Anth

  5. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Vitamin safety vs prescription drug safety
    From: "Anth" [email hidden]
    Date: 5/5/2004 8:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    2) Vitamins are unsafe, and yet despite the facts that
    100,000,000 people use them per year in the USA
    there's maybe 49000 reported cases of effects
    associated with them.

    whoa...anth

    the above number....100 MILLION Americans is more than 1/3
    our population..

    a/ there is no data that supports 1/3 of Americans take
    vitamins of any kind...in any dosages..

    b/those who DO take vits are most likely taking a one a day
    type..maybe with extra D or calcium..or those on Niacin
    for lipids

    c/so your number of 4900 reported cases of adverse effects
    CANNOT be linked to your claim that more than 1/3 of
    americans take vits...cuz surely 1/3 of americans are NOT
    taking megas

    you are combining apples oranges and bananas

    others have pointed out that it is VERY important to
    consider risk/benefit ratio.....and THEN use the lowest
    possible dosage to provide the highest possible benefit...

    you seem to continually assert that MEGAS are in the same
    league as a daily multi vit.....taint so

    also..since vits are OTC...the adverse reporting would in NO
    way be in the league as scripted drugs....as anything that a
    consumer can buy OTC does not require a trip to the doc...or
    follow up for adverse events....

    hawki.....

  6. (Now if someone could clarify that the reported cases per
    100,000 of adverse effects associated between all 3 of these
    that would be useful) I suspect that vaccines have a much
    less adverse effect report than vitamins which in turn is
    much less than prescription drugs. Anth

  7. "The Passion of Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    1st points I would like to make are this :-

    (1) Prescription drugs are safe - we are told and yet
    there are thousands


    of

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    reported cases of adverse effects with them per year.
    (2) Vitamins are unsafe, and yet despite the facts that
    100,000,000


    people

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    use them per year in the USA there's maybe 49000 reported
    cases of


    effects

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    associated with them.
    (3) Vaccines are safe - there's very little reported
    cases of of adverse effects with them per year, and
    yet people deem vaccines are unsafe.

    So to clear definition up, this is what I would like
    to say.

    (1) Prescription drugs are 'safe'

    Appropriately prescribed and with proper medical follow-
    up, they are


    usually

    Quoted message said:

    quite safe.

    Quoted message said:

    (2) Vitamins are 'safe'

    Generally speaking, they are safe in dosages at or below
    the RDA.


    Vitamins are

    Quoted message said:

    a rather diverse group of Chemicals, so generalizing their
    LD50 is not


    advised.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    (3) Vaccines are 'safe'

    Oh....My.....Gawd. You said vaccines are safe! Jan Drew is
    going to


    toss her

    Quoted message said:

    shrooms over this one!

    Seriously, let me congratulate you on being one of the few
    pro-alts to


    declare

    Quoted message said:

    that vaccines are, in general, safe.

    Quoted message said:

    If you scramble the points around then you are clearly
    being biased using alt med vs mainstream definitions.
    Think about it.....

    Other points I would like to generalise with Vitamins
    have a higher margin of safety with respect to drugs from
    a concentration point of view, it is easier to overdose
    on drugs than it is with vitamins. (Of course there will
    be exceptions)

    With drugs, the prescriptive method is to use the minimum
    effective dosage


    and

    Quoted message said:

    with a good understanding of the risk/reward ratio. With
    vaccines, the


    same

    Quoted message said:

    method applies.

    With Vit-A-Mins, the method is to use Mega-doses to
    prevent diseases which


    are

    Quoted message said:

    not known to be diseases of vitamin deficiency. The idea
    is that if the


    RDA

    Quoted message said:

    level is "good", then more is better & much more is
    much better.

    Do you know of any MD's saying "Let's give this child a
    Mega-MMR vaccine!


    500%

    Quoted message said:

    of the usual dosage will prevent diseases other than
    Measles, Mumps, and Rubella.' Do you hear MD's saying
    "Take a megadose of these heart meds.


    If

    Quoted message said:

    one will keep your blood pressure down, taking more will
    prevent diseases


    not

    Quoted message said:

    related to heart function."

    Hoffer has a big list of them on his site. I know of
    diseases which have been 'cured' by mega doses of
    vitamins. I also know of studies (in cancer) in which mega
    doses of vitamins along with conventional have been used
    to great effect.

    Quoted message said:

    The idea of mega dosing overlooks the whole principle of
    risk vs reward as


    well

    Quoted message said:

    as efficacy in treating, preventing, or palliating
    diseases not related to vitamin deficiency.

    Why do you say this?

    Quoted message said:

    Why do you want to make the pharmaceutical companies (the
    primary producer of vitamins) richer than they are?

    Because it is in my best interests (health) in doing so, I'm
    not going to get enough vitamins in my diet!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    So why is CODEX attacking our vitamins? Anth

  8. "Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Vitamin safety vs prescription drug safety From:
    "Anth" [email hidden] Date: 5/5/2004 8:56 AM
    Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: <TM2dncxer5e5_QfdRVn-
    [email hidden]>

    2) Vitamins are unsafe, and yet despite the facts that
    100,000,000 people use them per year in the USA
    there's maybe 49000 reported cases of


    effects

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    associated with them.

    whoa...anth the above number....100 MILLION Americans is
    more than 1/3 our


    population..

    For sure! 40% of the population that is the estimate.

    Quoted message said:

    a/ there is no data that supports 1/3 of Americans take
    vitamins of any kind...in any dosages..

    b/those who DO take vits are most likely taking a one a
    day type..maybe


    with

    Quoted message said:

    extra D or calcium..or those on Niacin for lipids
    c/so your number of 4900 reported cases of adverse effects
    CANNOT be


    linked to

    Quoted message said:

    your claim that more than 1/3 of americans take vits...cuz
    surely 1/3 of americans are NOT taking megas you are
    combining apples oranges and


    bananas

    Well even if vitamins were unsafe you would expect more
    cases reported since they are toxic? If I exclude the
    children from the figures there's 10,000 cases per year of
    reported vitamins adverse effects.

    Quoted message said:

    others have pointed out that it is VERY important to
    consider risk/benefit ratio.....and THEN use the lowest
    possible dosage to provide the highest possible benefit...

    Well I'm unsure about this - there's high dose studies that
    show efficacy and they keep messing around with the RDA. If
    I stick to what they say I'll end up ill or something like
    the rest of the population.

    Quoted message said:

    you seem to continually assert that MEGAS are in the same
    league as a


    daily

    Quoted message said:

    multi vit.....taint so

    Of course they are not BUT examine the safety data.

    Quoted message said:

    also..since vits are OTC...the adverse reporting would in
    NO way be in the league as scripted drugs....as anything
    that a consumer can buy OTC does


    not

    Quoted message said:

    require a trip to the doc...or follow up for adverse
    events....

    So what yo are saying is that there are more reported cases
    of vitamin toxicity happen or what? (Notice that most of the
    cases are reported in children possibly where frantic
    mothers have taken their child to the docs because they
    swallowed them or because their little bodies couldn't
    handle the dose) Anth

    Quoted message said:

    hawki.....

  9. This is where I sourced the information from.
    emedicine.comtopic638.htm Note that for
    Vitamin C - 2650 total exposures Vitamin C is very non
    toxic, and yet they are reported. Niacin - 2244 total
    exposures, 2 major outcomes, and 0 deaths The list goes
    on, you would sure expect more major outcomes in mega
    dosers?.. Anth

    "Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040506150458.10326.00000931@mb-
    m03.aol.com...

  10. .....(and the same for deaths) Anth

  11. On Wed, 5 May 2004 17:28:47 +0100, "Anth" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    (Now if someone could clarify that the reported cases per
    100,000 of adverse effects associated between all 3 of
    these that would be useful) I suspect that vaccines have a
    much less adverse effect report than vitamins which in turn
    is much less than prescription drugs.

    Safety of anything must always be looked at in context. It
    is not enough to just compare safety of one treatment
    modality with another. One must also compare the benefits of
    one against the other.

    For example in the treatment of childhood leukemia, vitamin
    therapy would be considered to be much safer than specific
    chemotherapeutic agents. But this is pretty meaningless if
    the vitamin therapy is not effective and the
    chemotherapeutic agent life saving.

    With respect to vaccinations one must compare the
    effectiveness of vaccines in preventing illnesses and
    reducing morbidity and mortality with their adverse effects.

    No one is disputing that vitamin supplementation is
    *relatively* safe although megadose vitamin therapy can
    cause adverse side effects, some serious. One must then
    weigh the benefits of megadose vitamin therapy with the
    possible side effects/toxicity.

    A walk in the park is also pretty safe (assuming you pick
    the right park) but it is likely not going to be effective
    to treat childhood leukemia. Specific chemo agents are very
    toxic and yet are often life saving in the treatment of
    childhood leukemia.

    Without looking at the issue of efficacy along with relative
    safety, the concept of safety is pretty meaningless.

    Aloha,

    Rich

    Quoted message said:

    Anth

    -------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------

    The best defense to logic is ignorance

  12. Well think of it like this People are dying from
    prescription drugs - they are declared 'safe' in their given
    doses. If mega dose vitamins where killing people in droves
    then they would be 'unsafe.' clearly from the figures they
    are not. So if you declare prescription drugs as 'safe' and
    vitamin mega doses as unsafe then why? Are prescription meds
    safe or what? Anth

    "Hawki63" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040506155358.10186.00000998@mb-
    m15.aol.com...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Vitamin safety vs prescription drug safety
    From: "Anth" [email hidden] Date: 5/5/2004
    12:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: <8J6dnedp_MLFDwfdRVn-
    [email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the above number....100 MILLION Americans is more than
    1/3 our


    population..

    Quoted message said:

    For sure! 40% of the population that is the estimate.

    sorry....in my days of seeing 28 patients a day (primary
    care)...I NEVER encountered that %%%......a guess would be
    more like 10-15% at most...not


    sure

    Quoted message said:

    where your figure comes from...

    again....multivits are not megas...

    Quoted message said:

    Well even if vitamins were unsafe you would expect more
    cases reported


    since

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    they are toxic?

    no....who would report?? consumers calling in
    themselves?? hardly

    again..scripted meds require visits to health care
    providers..who DO get


    told

    Quoted message said:

    or learn of adverse reactions...who DO perhaps fill out
    the adverse


    reaction

    Quoted message said:

    data (even then...not in all cases)

    a consumer who developed an Adverse reaction would be much
    more likely to simply stop or cut back...

    ONLY the very serious adverse reactions..ie liver
    toxicity..etc that


    require

    Quoted message said:

    intervention would be captured...

    Quoted message said:

    Well I'm unsure about this - there's high dose studies
    that show efficacy and they keep messing around with the
    RDA. If I stick to what they say


    I'll

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    end up ill or something like the rest of the population.

    anth..no one is saying YOU shouldn't or couldn't do
    whatever you want...it


    is

    Quoted message said:

    your body and your life..and you have a right to take any
    risks you


    please...

    Quoted message said:


    your statement that if you stick to the RDA you will end
    up "ill or


    something

    Quoted message said:

    like the rest of the population" is...well..a bit
    bizarre...as the "rest


    of the

    Quoted message said:

    population" is NOT sick..some are...most aren't...

    Quoted message said:

    Of course they are not BUT examine the safety data.

    in my humble opinion there is NOT enuf data to insure
    safety of mega


    doses...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    So what yo are saying is that there are more reported
    cases of vitami

    Quoted message said:

    toxicity happen or what?

    no...less...much much less...as anyone can buy OTC without
    a trip to a


    health

    Quoted message said:

    care provider..then if they experience an adverse
    reaction..they simply


    stop or

    Quoted message said:

    cut back...HOW then could adverse reactions to OTC be
    captured?? only by guessing..

  13. Which is why I am expressing my points about toxicity. These
    reactions are not toxic reactions allegedly. (Let's have
    some clear definitions of toxicity such as LD50's) Anth

    "DRCEEPHD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040506183058.10600.00000095@mb-
    m24.aol.com...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Vitamin safety vs prescription drug safety
    From: "Anth" [email hidden] Date: 5/5/04 12:28
    PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: <ZYqdnZ_d0Io0-gfdRVn-
    [email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    I suspect that vaccines have a much less adverse effect
    report than


    vitamins

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    which in turn is much less than prescription drugs. Anth

    I cannot agree with you here.

    Drugs (both recreational and those prescribed by your
    drugging MD ) have millions of adverse reactions per year
    with nearly 300,000 deaths and this


    is

    Quoted message said:

    just in the US.

    Vaccine adverse events likewise number in the millions and
    range from mild soreness, fevers, malaise, vomiting, etc,
    to long term loss of health ( diabetes type I, and
    juvenile onset arthritis) and deaths in the tens of
    thousands ( SIDS being one example ). One must also keep
    in mind what the CDC says that the MDs do: they


    recognize

    Quoted message said:

    and report only around 10% of the adverse events and
    deaths. Any number


    coming

    Quoted message said:

    from medical sources must be multiplied by 10 to even come
    close to the


    true

    Quoted message said:

    numbers.

    Now, compare those numers to those being tabulated for
    vitamins.

    DrC PhD

  14. "The Passion of Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    <snip for brevity>

    Ilsa 9:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    With drugs, the prescriptive method is to use the
    minimum effective


    dosage

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and

    Quoted message said:

    with a good understanding of the risk/reward ratio.
    With vaccines, the


    same

    Quoted message said:

    method applies.

    With Vit-A-Mins, the method is to use Mega-doses to
    prevent diseases


    which

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    are

    Quoted message said:

    not known to be diseases of vitamin deficiency. The
    idea is that if


    the

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    RDA

    Quoted message said:

    level is "good", then more is better & much more is
    much better.

    Do you know of any MD's saying "Let's give this child a
    Mega-MMR


    vaccine!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    500%

    Quoted message said:

    of the usual dosage will prevent diseases other than
    Measles, Mumps,


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Rubella.' Do you hear MD's saying "Take a megadose of
    these heart


    meds.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If

    Quoted message said:

    one will keep your blood pressure down, taking more
    will prevent


    diseases

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    not

    Quoted message said:

    related to heart function."

    Anth:

    Quoted message said:

    Hoffer has a big list of them on his site.

    Well, Hulda has a cure for ALL Diseases, HIV, Cancer, and
    the heartbreak


    of

    Quoted message said:

    Psoriasis. Why settle for a list with limits?

    There's limits even to Hulda's magic wisdom .

    Quoted message said:

    Anth:

    Quoted message said:

    I know of diseases which have been 'cured' by mega doses
    of vitamins.

    Which ones?

    Schizophreniam Depressionm Scurvy and a whole lot more.

    Quoted message said:

    Anth:

    Quoted message said:

    I also know of studies (in cancer) in which mega doses of
    vitamins along with conventional have been used to great
    effect.

    Ilsa 9:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The idea of mega dosing overlooks the whole principle
    of risk vs reward


    as

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    well

    Quoted message said:

    as efficacy in treating, preventing, or palliating
    diseases not related


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    vitamin deficiency.


    Anth:

    Quoted message said:

    Why do you say this?

    Because I don't know of any reward in taking megadoses. I
    do know of


    risks. I

    Quoted message said:

    don't know of any diseases treatable by megadoses that are
    diseases of


    vitamin

    Quoted message said:

    deficiency.

    You should try it - mega dose vitamins are groovy!

    Quoted message said:

    Ilsa 9:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Why do you want to make the pharmaceutical
    companies (the primary producer of vitamins) richer
    than they are?


    Anth:

    Quoted message said:

    Because it is in my best interests (health) in doing so,
    I'm not going to get enough vitamins in my diet!

    You say that mega doses are helpful when treating cancer.
    Do you have


    cancer?

    Quoted message said:

    Do you believe the megadoses will prevent cancer? Why do
    you think that


    your

    Quoted message said:

    diet is overly deficient in vitamins? If you eat a good
    variety of fruits


    and

    Quoted message said:

    vegetables, you are likely exceeding your RDA.

    I don't have cancer nor do I want it you can keep it if you
    wish. For sure I believe mega doses will prevent some
    cancers typically colon cancer with ascorbate.

    Quoted message said:

    In light of the foregoing questions, just how are
    megadoses in your best


    health interest?

    Well I wish to practice caloric restriction at some point so
    I will need to take vitamins.

    Quoted message said:

    I think you are falling for the pharmaceutical company's
    hype when you by


    their

    Quoted message said:

    products (vitamins) with the intention of taking more than
    recommended and


    for

    Quoted message said:

    purposes not sanctioned. Still, if you like making
    Pharmaceutical


    companies

    Quoted message said:

    more profitable, then proceed!

    Well it's either that or get fat on foods!

    Quoted message said:

    Anth:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >So why is CODEX attacking our vitamins?

    Maybe CODEX is trying to limit the power and profit of the
    pharmaceutical companies....

    LOL!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >Anth

    Anth

  15. In article <[email hidden]>,

    DRCEEPHD said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Vitamin safety vs prescription drug safety
    From: "Anth" [email hidden] Date: 5/5/04 12:28
    PM Eastern Daylight Time Message-id: <ZYqdnZ_d0Io0-gfdRVn-
    [email hidden]>

    I suspect that vaccines have a much less adverse effect
    report than vitamins >which in turn is much less than
    prescription drugs. Anth

    I cannot agree with you here.

    Well, I suspect that if you look at total reactions,
    vitamins and vaccines may well be in the same ballpark.
    But the usage of the two is different. Vaccines are
    mostly administered to children, whereas vitamins may be
    taken by all ages.

    Quoted message said:

    Drugs (both recreational and those prescribed by your
    drugging MD ) have millions of adverse reactions per year
    with nearly 300,000 deaths and this is just in the US.

    I have my doubts about that 300,000 figure. Where does it
    come from?

    Quoted message said:

    Vaccine adverse events likewise number in the millions and
    range from mild soreness, fevers, malaise, vomiting, etc,
    to long term loss of health ( diabetes type I, and juvenile
    onset arthritis) and deaths in the tens of thousands ( SIDS
    being one example ).

    SIDS being an example of where vaccines are good; in New
    Zealand, when the vaccine rate was low, SIDS was high. Of
    course, the loons will go on blaming vaccines for SIDS until
    doomsday, but this fails to explain things like why the
    "back to sleep" campaign was so successful. (I can't wait
    for the explanation of how vaccines know whether you're
    sleeping on your back or not.)

    Quoted message said:

    One must also keep in mind what the CDC says that the MDs
    do: they recognize and report only around 10% of the
    adverse events and deaths. Any number coming from medical
    sources must be multiplied by 10 to even come close to the
    true numbers.

    Except that most of the non-reported adverse events are
    horrible things like running a fever for a day or two, or
    irritability for a day or two. Wowee.

    -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
    opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
    have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
    standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

  16. Of course there's toxic reactions and 'toxic reactions' -
    they are not the same thing. Why do you think vaccines are
    not safe when there's thousands of un-reported cases of
    toxicity with vitamins? The mind boggles and yes I am being
    sarcastic! Anth

    "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2YWdnTnqt9EtIAfdRVn-
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Which is why I am expressing my points about toxicity.
    These reactions are not toxic reactions allegedly.
    (Let's have some clear definitions of toxicity such as
    LD50's) Anth

  17. llsa check this out (A brilliant website)

    health-heart.orgcomments.htm

    'Mega dose' ascorbate.

    2. Vitamin C's most important study was in the Canadian
    Medical Association Journal of Sept. 23 1972. During 102
    days (3.4 months) in winter, 407 about 25 year old
    Canadians took 1 g/day + 3 g/day during the first 3 days
    of any illness. An identical group on taste and look-
    alike dummy pills had 40% more people seeking medical
    help (56 vs. 40), 58% more doctors visits [94
    vs. 60] and a "similar" increased prescription drug use.
    There was a 99.9% probable reduction in days of
    disability. Sadly, drug use and doctors visits, simple
    indicators of bad health, were not looked at in a larger
    follow-up study that also proved benefit. For long-term
    benefits: Epidem; May '92. According to these non
    refuted results, 1 g per day of vitamin C with an
    increase during illness would change the face of
    everyday medical practice.

    Mega-niacin does take some medical guidance [for the first
    few days it will give a harmless but frightening hot-flush]
    but it's the only drug suggested by the AHA to raise HDL and
    it's 1 of 3 to lower LDL. Best: plain niacin, not 'no-
    flush', and it may make your doctor happy [and less fearful
    about law suits] since you're 'doing something' about your
    cholesterol. Always take with a multi otherwise it raises
    homocysteine and, bonus: it lowers clotting Lp(a) and
    fibrinogen.

    Anth

    Get yourself a pack of multi's and pop away!

    Anth

  18. On Thu, 6 May 2004 02:20:12 +0100, "Anth" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    "

    Quoted message said:

    Anth:

    Quoted message said:

    I know of diseases which have been 'cured' by mega doses
    of vitamins.

    Which ones?

    Schizophreniam Depressionm Scurvy and a whole lot more.

    Scurvy is caused by deficiency of Vitamin C and conventional
    medicine agrees that treatment involves administration of
    this Vitamin.

    Please post peer reviewed studies that indicate that
    Schizophrenia or Depression is cured by megadoses of
    Vitamins. I did a Medline search and could not find a single
    study indicating that megadoses of vitamins is an effective
    treatment.

    If you tell me to continue to look for myself or otherwise
    fail to provide such studies then I will conclude that you
    have no evidence to support your assertion other than
    unverifiable anecdotes which do not constitute proof anymore
    than the anecdotal reports that acupuncture or homeopathy
    work for various maladies.

    Aloha,

    Rich

    -------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------

    The best defense to logic is ignorance

  19. <Rich.@.> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Anth said:

    "

    Quoted message said:

    Anth:
    >I know of diseases which have been 'cured' by mega
    >doses of vitamins.

    Which ones?

    Schizophreniam Depressionm Scurvy and a whole lot more.

    Scurvy is caused by deficiency of Vitamin C and
    conventional medicine agrees that treatment involves
    administration of this Vitamin.

    So you say, I say scurvy is caused by a defective gene, and
    also in some cases scurvy is 'cured' only by megadose
    ascorbate. seanet.comstone i
    orthomol_psych-1979-v8-n2-p58.htm

    Quoted message said:

    Please post peer reviewed studies that indicate that
    Schizophrenia or Depression is cured by megadoses of
    Vitamins. I did a Medline search and could not find a
    single study indicating that megadoses of vitamins is an
    effective treatment.

    It's on the Hoffers site, how many times do you want this
    link? Hoffer A: Chronic schizophrenic patients treated ten
    years or more.
    J.Orthomolecular Medicine, 9:7-37,1994.

    Quoted message said:

    If you tell me to continue to look for myself or otherwise
    fail to provide such studies then I will conclude that you
    have no evidence to support your assertion other than
    unverifiable anecdotes which do not constitute proof
    anymore than the anecdotal reports that acupuncture or
    homeopathy work for various maladies.

    Conclude what you wish, as you would conclude that the
    harmless flushing associated with niacin is toxitiy.. Anth

    Quoted message said:

    Aloha,

    Rich

  20. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Anth said:

    <Rich.@.> wrote in message news:409ff4cd.100314359@news-
    server.hawaii.rr.com...

    Quoted message said:
    Anth said:

    "
    > Anth:
    > >I know of diseases which have been 'cured' by mega
    > >doses of vitamins.
    >
    > Which ones?

    Schizophreniam Depressionm Scurvy and a whole lot more.

    Scurvy is caused by deficiency of Vitamin C and
    conventional medicine agrees that treatment involves
    administration of this Vitamin.

    So you say, I say scurvy is caused by a defective gene,

    Yes, but that's because you have your own unique definition
    here, in which every single member of the human race has the
    same defective gene.

    (And skip the part about how some people can make their own
    C; I don't think they can make RDA levels.)

    -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
    opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
    have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
    standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

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