Flightdeck - Worthwhile?

Just zis Guy, you know? posted ...

Quoted message said:

Dave Kahn said:

It's accurate whenever you are moving at a steady speed.
It's also useful on freewheeling mega-descents as it
constantly tells you what cadence you would be doing if
you were actually pedalling. This helps you select the
ideal gear before gravity-assist mode runs out of steam.

Maybe I'm missing someting here, but when I'm on a
freewheeling descent I can usually be fairly confident
that top gear is the one I'll want when the gravity
wears off...

LOL, I generally go one gear less, and freewheel for a bit
longer .. 😉

--
Paul

(8(|) Homer rocks .. 😉

Just zis Guy said:

Velvet wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a) need to change down - and by how far - when coming up
to a junction (thus avoiding the I'm-in-too-high-a-gear
weaving wobble when setting off again)
b) need to try and work out how many gears to change
up/down quickly whilst shifting front chainring
c) am about to need to change front chainring on account
of having run out of sprockets to play with

Quoted message said:

All problems I simply don't recognise. Of course, bar ends
make multip=

le

Quoted message said:

shifts very easy anyway.

Plus you just need to look at the levers to know what gear
you're in.

But specifically regarding c) above, you should be changing
chain rings=20 /well/ before you've run out of sprockets, as
otherwise you're just=20 using overlap gears that place
unnecessary wear on the chain and=20 sprockets as well as
losing you efficiency from an overly offset chain ru=
n.

The wee chainring you should generally only be using the
bottom to=20 middle sprockets, big ring middle to top
sprockets and the middle ring=20 uses, say 3-7 on a 9 speed
block, 3-6 on an 8 or similar.

For b) above, it will depend on your own specific ratios but
on my=20 tourer, and I suspect quite possibly yours, it's
about 2 and a bit rear=20 gears effective jump moving the
chainring, which I think of as 2. This=20 isn't exactly in
the realm of maths needing computers! What is most=20 useful
for deciding on front shifts for me is the terrain ahead: if
I=20 can see I'll have a serious climb and will want the low
gears I'm on the =

low ring well before the chain is under serious load pulling
up the hill.=

Sounds like you want a Rohloff. Got =A3600 handy? ;-/

Pete. --=20 Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382
660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44
1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net
[email hidden] dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Just zis Guy said:

Velvet said:

Ah, but I find it invaluable for knowing if I:

Quoted message said:

a) need to change down - and by how far - when coming up
to a junction (thus avoiding the I'm-in-too-high-a-gear
weaving wobble when setting off again)
b) need to try and work out how many gears to change
up/down quickly whilst shifting front chainring
c) am about to need to change front chainring on account
of having run out of sprockets to play with

All problems I simply don't recognise. Of course, bar ends
make multiple shifts very easy anyway.

Quoted message said:

I'm sure if I didn't have it I'd learn, but it'd be yet
another experience on a bike involving large amounts of
stress and mild panic

Hmmm. Like I say, not a problem I've ever experienced.

How do bar end shifters work? I've got an idea they are
notchy type things, so you know from the position which gear
you're in, and changing down 3 gears you know you go through
3 notches?

Velvet

Peter Clinch said:

Just zis Guy said:

Velvet wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a) need to change down - and by how far - when coming up
to a junction (thus avoiding the I'm-in-too-high-a-
gear weaving wobble when setting off again)
b) need to try and work out how many gears to change
up/down quickly whilst shifting front chainring
c) am about to need to change front chainring on account
of having run out of sprockets to play with

Quoted message said:

All problems I simply don't recognise. Of course, bar
ends make multiple shifts very easy anyway.

Plus you just need to look at the levers to know what gear
you're in.

But specifically regarding c) above, you should be
changing chain rings /well/ before you've run out of
sprockets, as otherwise you're just using overlap gears
that place unnecessary wear on the chain and sprockets
as well as losing you efficiency from an overly offset
chain run.

The wee chainring you should generally only be using the
bottom to middle sprockets, big ring middle to top
sprockets and the middle ring uses, say 3-7 on a 9 speed
block, 3-6 on an 8 or similar.

For b) above, it will depend on your own specific ratios
but on my tourer, and I suspect quite possibly yours, it's
about 2 and a bit rear gears effective jump moving the
chainring, which I think of as 2. This isn't exactly in
the realm of maths needing computers! What is most useful
for deciding on front shifts for me is the terrain ahead:
if I can see I'll have a serious climb and will want the
low gears I'm on the low ring well before the chain is
under serious load pulling up the hill.

Sounds like you want a Rohloff. Got £600 handy? ;-/

Pete.

Heh, no, I don't have 600 quid handy. If I did, I'd
potentially be looking at selling my bike, putting that with
the 600 quid, scraping together a few more pennies, and
getting a windcheetah ;-)

Velvet

Velvet said:

How do bar end shifters work? I've got an idea they are
notchy type things, so you know from the position which
gear you're in, and changing down 3 gears you know you go
through 3 notches?

That's about it. The "notchy thingness" is called
indexing...

--
Guy
===
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Quoted message said:

Velvet posted ...

Quoted message said:

Tony B said:

So, to any Shimano Flightdeck owners out there, or even
non-owners with axes to grind, what's the group thoughts
on this particular bit of techno candy?

Quoted message said:

Love my flightdeck, but it's not that intuitive to use.
Most handy for knowing what gear I'm in -

I dunno, maybe it's me, but don't you just subconsciously
count so 'know' what gear you're in anyway ? Gear
changing is so intuitive through feel, sensory feedback
etc that I would have thought things like 'Flightdeck'
were merely more gadgets to add on rather than doing
anything 'really' useful.

Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with gadgets
like this, if you like 'em then keep paying for 'em .. 😉

Nope, never had a bike with that many gears on, and as I
said before, it's hard to count if one press of the sti
shifter can drop you down 1 2 or 3 sprockets, depending on
how far/long you hold it, and it's not an exact science at
all. Counting only works if you know how many gears you just
shifted, and which gear you started in.

Velvet

Velvet said:

Nope, never had a bike with that many gears on, and as I
said before, it's hard to count if one press of the sti
shifter can drop you down 1 2 or 3 sprockets, depending on
how far/long you hold it, and it's not an exact science at
all. Counting only works if you know how many gears you
just shifted, and which gear you started in.

Still puzzled. I decide which gear by feeling the effort
involved in pushing the pedals round, not by some
computation in my head using cadence and speed. I get
cadence from a crank sensor - cadence when coasting is zero.
Actually I rarely look at cadence now anyway, having trained
myself to pedal at a steady 100ish.

--
Guy
===
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Just zis Guy said:

That's about it. The "notchy thingness" is called
indexing...

If you have it turned on, though you can use them in pure
friction mode too, which is what my front shifter uses.
They're just levers, that happen to sitt on bar ends.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Velvet said:

Heh, no, I don't have 600 quid handy. If I did, I'd
potentially be looking at selling my bike, putting that
with the 600 quid, scraping together a few more pennies,
and getting a windcheetah ;-)

That still leaves you needing a very large number of
pennies :-(

But in the meantime, do try and avoid running to the end
of the sprockets before changing at the front, it's doing
the bike no good, making your changes less reliable, and
for no gain.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

Velvet said:

Heh, no, I don't have 600 quid handy. If I did, I'd
potentially be looking at selling my bike, putting that
with the 600 quid, scraping together a few more pennies,
and getting a windcheetah ;-)

That still leaves you needing a very large number of
pennies :-(

But in the meantime, do try and avoid running to the end
of the sprockets before changing at the front, it's doing
the bike no good, making your changes less reliable, and
for no gain.

Pete.

I don't run out of sprockets, so don't worry - cos I know
where I am cos of my flightdeck ;-) I usually change when I
get to one before last sprocket if in the middle going to
the small chainring, and when I'm about 2/3 the way up the
sprockets when I go back up to the middle from small
chainring.

Velvet

Peter Clinch said:

Just zis Guy said:

That's about it. The "notchy thingness" is called
indexing...

If you have it turned on, though you can use them in pure
friction mode too, which is what my front shifter uses.
They're just levers, that happen to sitt on bar ends.

Pete.

Right, you see this is where I think the difference is. My
bike has STI shifters, and it's a push/return action of the
lever (or sub-lever respectively) to change up or down, so
the state of the lever is the same no matter what gear
you're in, you can't look at it and know, unless you think
twisting around to look at the rear sprocket is a good idea
whilst mingling with traffic.

I can see how it's a lot easier with those levers to know by
the position of the lever approximately where you are on the
gearing - certainly if you're gettingn toward either extreme
and about to run out of sprockets, but you can't do that
with the STI shifters at all.

Velvet

Velvet said:

I don't run out of sprockets, so don't worry - cos I know
where I am cos of my flightdeck ;-) I usually change when
I get to one before last sprocket if in the middle going
to the small chainring, and when I'm about 2/3 the way up
the sprockets when I go back up to the middle from small
chainring.

Though I note that "usually" is not the same as "always",
just in case you're not already doing this try to make use
of the front chainrings more predictive, so you're on a ring
that suits your immediately future riding style rather than
"this is where I usually change the front ring".

For example, if you're starting a long up where you'll
probably need the low gears, get into the low ring before
you might normally, as front changes under tension are
the traumatic ones that involve horrible noises and chain
throwing. This works the other way too, but it's usually
more important for progressive down changing as you
rarely *need* serious chain tension when flying down
hills, as opposed to crawling up them. When changing down
at the front, IME it's best to be on the wee ring before
you need it.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

you know? said:

Velvet said:

Nope, never had a bike with that many gears on, and as I
said before, it's hard to count if one press of the sti
shifter can drop you down 1 2 or 3 sprockets, depending
on how far/long you hold it, and it's not an exact
science at all. Counting only works if you know how many
gears you just shifted, and which gear you started in.

Still puzzled. I decide which gear by feeling the effort
involved in pushing the pedals round, not by some
computation in my head using cadence and speed.

Of course you do. However, despite being in the right gear I
find it useful to know where that gear sits in the range.
Just a convenience, no more no less. Of course I can look
down and check my chainring and I can even look down and
back to check my cog but conveniently I have something on
the bars to do that for me allowing me to spend more time
looking up.

Quoted message said:

I get cadence from a crank sensor - cadence when coasting
is zero.

Again, of course, but as long as I remember to imagine the
readout is zero when coasting then the flightdeck does a
perfectly good job of telling me the cadence if I want that.
Again, a convenience over fitting another sensor.

I can still cycle without the flightdeck.

Colin
--

"Velvet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch wrote:

Right, you see this is where I think the difference is. My
bike has STI shifters, and it's a push/return action of
the lever (or sub-lever respectively) to change up or
down, so the state of the lever is the same no matter what
gear you're in, you can't look at it and know, unless you
think twisting around to look at the rear sprocket is a
good idea whilst mingling with traffic.

I can see how it's a lot easier with those levers to know
by the position of the lever approximately where you are
on the gearing - certainly if you're gettingn toward
either extreme and about to run out of sprockets, but you
can't do that with the STI shifters at all.

I have STI shifters and find no problem in knowing which
chainring I'm on and at least approximately which part of
the rear sprocket cluster I'm on - well enough to know
whether a change of chain ring is called for. You can also
see which chainring you're in easily enough, if there's any
doubt. It's just a matter of having a 'feel' for speed,
cadence and pedalling effort to know how best to shift.

Rich

Velvet said:

Right, you see this is where I think the difference is. My
bike has STI shifters, and it's a push/return action of
the lever (or sub-lever respectively) to change up or
down, so the state of the lever is the same no matter what
gear you're in, you can't look at it and know, unless you
think twisting around to look at the rear sprocket is a
good idea whilst mingling with traffic.

My MTB has Rapidfires and no indication of what gear I'm in.
So if I really want to know I just look down at the cogs and
then I know straight away. But aside from having no
indication, you can change one or two gears at once just
with a longer push on the thumb changer. I always know when
I've gone 2 rather than one because my legs are doing a
different amount of work to what I expect. I know what one
stop feels like in my legs, I don't need any visual
indication to tell me I dropped more than 1.

Not that I'm saying there's anything *wrong* with visual
indication though. But if your Flightdeck does go loopy or
have the battery die it's a bit of a pain having your
ability to use your gears seriously compromised because you
can't work without it. Ought to be a convenience rather than
something you rely on.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Richard Goodman said:

I have STI shifters and find no problem in knowing which
chainring I'm on and at least approximately which part of
the rear sprocket cluster I'm on - well enough to know
whether a change of chain ring is called for. You can
also see which chainring you're in easily enough, if
there's any doubt. It's just a matter of having a 'feel'
for speed, cadence and pedalling effort to know how best
to shift.

I have STI on one of my bikes. I can see what ring I'm in
without taking my eyes off the road, but have no chance of
seeing what sprocket - which is not an issue because the
indicator on the gearshift is good enough.

I guess it's just a solution to a problem I don't have.

--
Guy
===
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"Velvet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark South said:

"Velvet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Love my flightdeck, but it's not that intuitive to use.
Most handy for knowing what gear I'm in - I have no clue
otherwise, ....

It's easy to learn to keep track without ever looking.
Let's say you

have a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

double chainset and 9 sprockets at the back. Now call
the front rings S

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

B for 'small' and 'big'. Then before you start, look at
your sprockets

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

see where the chain is. Suppose it's on sprocket 2, and
the chain is on

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

small ring. Now say to yourself (under your breath -
don't want to

worry

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the bystanders :-) "S2, I am in gear S2".

After that, every time you change, say something to
yourself like

"Changing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

up, I am now in S3". And so on. After about a week of
this you will

never

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

again need to look at the flightdeck display, any shifter-
mounted indicators, or the rear sprockets. You will
simply *know* what gear you

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in, and you will be slightly safer for not having
to look.

Great thing is that it works on and off-road.

Umm, but... I can drop down 1, 2, or 3 gears using my
STI levers.

Yup, that's the design.

Quoted message said:

It's not always clear where I've ended up - it depends on
whether I push the lever and release (usually but not
always a single gear change down) or push and hold (can
result in 2 or 3 but sometimes 1).

It's amazingly easy to tell how many gears you are changing.
Even if you make a mistake you are stil only out by one.

Seriously, try it for one week and see how easy it becomes.

Quoted message said:

Changing up is a fixed 1-gear increase, but changing down
is an entirely different kettle of fish... and it's a
triple on the front, though I'm almost exclusively in the
small and medium of those, very rarely on the large ;-)

I've just moved somewhere hillier and now use S1 and B9 a
lot more than I used to!
--
Mark South Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net <<Tiens!
Ce poulet a une grenade!

"Richard Goodman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]... .net...

Quoted message said:

It's easy to learn to keep track without ever
looking. ...

Quoted message said:

Wha....? You mean you count _all_ your gear changes for
the whole ride?

Yes, it takes about a millisecond per gearchange.

Quoted message said:

How far are your rides?

I do it on short and long rides. They are normally at least
long enough to need a gearchange here and there.

Quoted message said:

Haven't you got anything else to think about while riding?

A thousand gearchanges use about a second of my attention up
each ride.

Quoted message said:

I can't understand anyway why it's so necessary to know
which gear you're
in.

If you don't care to know, you don't have to keep track.
Where did you see in my post that I shouted some evil-
dictator slogan "YOU WILL KEEP TRACK OF YOUR GEAR CHANGES
AND WE WILL BE CHECKING UP ON YOU!!!!!" ???

Or are you just so used to the pro- and anti-helmet
fascism here that you think everyone expects you to be
just like them??

Velvet aked the question and so I told her how to do it.

Quoted message said:

You can tell by how hard it is to peddle whether you need
to change up or down. What else is there to know?

Loads of other stuff. But if you don;t care to know it,
don't bother.

And if you REALLY don't want to be botherd with keeping
track of what's going on while you are on the road, get
yourself an SUV. With bullbars.
--
Mark South Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net <<Tiens!
Ce poulet a une grenade!

Peter Clinch said:

Though I note that "usually" is not the same as
"always", just in case you're not already doing this try
to make use of the front chainrings more predictive, so
you're on a ring that suits your immediately future
riding style rather than "this is where I usually change
the front ring".

For example, if you're starting a long up where you'll
probably need the low gears, get into the low ring before
you might normally, as front changes under tension are
the traumatic ones that involve horrible noises and chain
throwing. This works the other way too, but it's usually
more important for progressive down changing as you
rarely *need* serious chain tension when flying down
hills, as opposed to crawling up them. When changing down
at the front, IME it's best to be on the wee ring before
you need it.

Pete.

Yeah, I find I am much better at juggling the front
chainring around to suit what's coming up in plenty of time,
though if I don't know the route I'm cycling along then I
can get caught out by a hill jumping out suddenly after it's
been hiding behind a bend ;-)

I seem to spend the majority of my time in small front if
the gradient is at all uphill - even a mild one if it's a
long one - but on more undulating or flatter/downhill then
I stick to the middle and usually hang around the second-
largest to middle on that. If I know any sort of hill is
coming up that I think is too long (ie, not very very
short and not very steep) for my knees, then I'll go for
small chainring and ramp up the gears at the back till I
get to it.

It's just that knowing where I am on the gears when it comes
to evaluating hills and pre-selecting the range I'll need is
SO much easier when you can see which gear you're in :-) The
actual process of changing chainrings I still find awkward,
because I can't seem to ramp up the gears fast enough at the
back to compensate for having dropped to the small ring at
the front - is there a knack to this, and if so, what? With
this I can see bar-ends win over STI's, cos I have to click
the secondary lever over several times (I think it's the
secondary one) to move up several gears (well, usually about
5-6) which takes a long time compared to the front ring
changing. Can't change them before I move the front ring
(suddenly ramps up effort needed) but if I do them at the
same time it leads to spinning in air till the rear catches
up again..

Velvet

"Mark South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Richard Goodman" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]... .net...

Quoted message said:

It's easy to learn to keep track without ever
looking. ...

Quoted message said:

Wha....? You mean you count _all_ your gear changes for
the whole ride?

Yes, it takes about a millisecond per gearchange.

It's not how long it takes, it's not forgetting it with all
the other things going on around that I would find difficult
- unless I made a conscious effort to keep it on the top of
my mind it would soon drop out of memory. Hence my other
comments about how far/long your rides were and having other
things to think about. But maybe it's just because I'd find
it such a futile, unnecessary and boring thing to remember.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can't understand anyway why it's so necessary to know
which gear

you're

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in.

If you don't care to know, you don't have to keep track.
Where did you

see

Quoted message said:

in my post that I shouted some evil-dictator slogan "YOU
WILL KEEP TRACK

OF

Quoted message said:

YOUR GEAR CHANGES AND WE WILL BE CHECKING UP ON
YOU!!!!!" ???

Of course you didn't suggest such and thing, and I didn't
suggest that you
did. I merely stated that I did not understand why anyone
would feel they need to know _exactly_ which particular
chainring/sprocket combination they are in. And I still
don't. And others have pretty much said they don't
understand it either. The main thing is how hard it is
peddle. Hard - change down - too easy - change up. That
sort of thing.

Quoted message said:

Or are you just so used to the pro- and anti-helmet
fascism here that you think everyone expects you to be
just like them??

Oh. Flames. That sort of comment insults not only me but all
the other participants on this ng as well. No, I don't
expect everyone else to be the same. That doesn't mean I
can't explain what works for me in terms of using gears
without counting, as others have done. Most people seem to
manage it.

Quoted message said:

Velvet aked the question and so I told her how to do it.

Quoted message said:

You can tell by how hard it is to peddle whether you
need to change up or down. What else is there to know?

Loads of other stuff. But if you don;t care to know it,
don't bother.

And if you REALLY don't want to be botherd with keeping
track of what's going on while you are on the road, get
yourself an SUV. With bullbars.

No thanks, I prefer my bike. I don't count being precious
about which gear I'm in as part of knowing what's going on
around me. Rather, I prefer to concentrate on what is going
on around me than I do in muttering an S1,
S2..B9 mantra to myself as I go along.

Rich