Jan: No Doyenne

"Davey Crockett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of
months+ to go,

he'll have as much chance of winning the Tour as the kelme
and Cofidis lads.

I think Jan is waiting to see how Armstrong does on Friday.
If Armstrong climbs well, Jan will beging training in
earnest on Saturday.

Davey Crockett schreef:

Quoted message said:

And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of
months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the
Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
--

He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.

Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

Davey Crockett schreef:

Quoted message said:

And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of
months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the
Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
--

He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.

Davey slaps his head!!

Jeeperz I never thought of that.

Say's ``Now whadda ya think of that Jim Bowie? It's part of
the team strategy!!!''

--
le Vent a Dos Davey Crockett Six-Day site:
members.rogers.comsixday.htmlOpen ↗

Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

Davey Crockett schreef:

Quoted message said:

And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of
months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the
Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
--

He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.

Heck, he'll keep the whole team out of the wind.

Richard Adams said:

Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

Davey Crockett schreef:

Quoted message said:

And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of
months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the
Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
--

He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.

Heck, he'll keep the whole team out of the wind.

In a slightly different vein, I really feel sorry for Jan,

He won it fair and square in 1997 and was always a better
rider than the rider who is going for a sixth go-around
this year.

It's just devastating to think that, all other things being
equal, he could be going for consecutive win number 8!!!

Just my two-bits worth from a guy who doesn't care who wins,
so long as he's 10 minutes ahead of You-Knnow_Who.

--
le Vent a Dos Davey Crockett Six-Day site:
members.rogers.comsixday.htmlOpen ↗

Davey Crockett <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Richard Adams said:

Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

Davey Crockett schreef:

>And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple
>of months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning
>the Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
>--
He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.

Heck, he'll keep the whole team out of the wind.

In a slightly different vein, I really feel sorry for Jan,

He won it fair and square in 1997 and was always a better
rider than the rider who is going for a sixth go-around
this year.

No. He's not. All things being equal, better riders win
races over people who are not as good as them. Everybody has
a little bad luck, but the fact that Ullrich has lost the
tour four or five times since the year he won says
something. Sure maybe Ullrich has more natural talent, but
if year in and year out he's losing, then he's not better
than the competition. In fact, if you believe that he has
more talent then the only real choice you have is that he's
a slacker, or that he doesn't have the head of a champion.

Being a better racer than somebody else is about winning
more than them. Who knows, there could be 20 people who
either are racing or have been racing that have more talent
than Lance or Jan. Maybe they don't have the right work
ethic. Or maybe they have too many doubts and lose because
they are weak in the head. But you know what? If that's the
case, they aren't as good.

Professional bike racing is about having the whole package.
Climbing, time trialing, sprinting, suffering in the rain
and heat, crosswinds, cobbles, short, steep climbs, 20 km
mountain passes and having the mindset that goes along with
it. The best riders just go out and win races. The best bike
racers win because they are stronger, smarter and harder.
They win because they make that final counter attack even
though they feel like they are going to die. That make that
attack because every nerve ending in their body says "GO
NOW!" It hurts terribly, but they win because at the moment
it mattered most, the others were weak.

If I had a dollar for every bike racer I knew who had an
enourmous talent, but never went anywhere I'd be rich. Look
at the other end. Look at a guy like Mike Sayers. We were
team mates 8 or 10 years ago. To put it bluntly, Mike wasn't
exactly oozing with raw talent. He got dropped on any real
hill. But Mike wanted to be a bike racer and he worked HARD!
He's been a pro for years now and raced in the

who everybody thought had more talent who are still racing
industrial park crits in Nor Cal if they are racing at all.

Having said that, I have an enourmous amount of respect for
Jan, but here we are yet again, it's late April and Jan is
having to skip the harder races because he's not fit enough
to finish them. I'm sure he will get much fitter, and I'll
bet he's on the podium in Paris this year again. But it
won't be on the top step unless something happens to the guy
who got his third win of the year today. Somebody else my
beat Armstrong, but it won't be Jan...

Kevin Metcalfe [email hidden] Pleasant Hill, Ca

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Davey Crockett

BRichard Adams said:

Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

Davey Crockett schreef:

Quoted message said:

And judging by the shape he's in with around a couple of
months+ to go, he'll have as much chance of winning the
Tour as the kelme and Cofidis lads.
--

He'll keep Vino out of the wind in the flat stages.

Heck, he'll keep the whole team out of the wind.

In a slightly different vein, I really feel sorry for Jan,

He won it fair and square in 1997 and was always a better
rider than the rider who is going for a sixth go-around
this year.

It's just devastating to think that, all other things being
equal, he could be going for consecutive win number 8!!!

Just my two-bits worth from a guy who doesn't care who wins,
so long as he's 10 minutes ahead of You-Knnow_Who.

--
le Vent a Dos Davey Crockett Six-Day site:
members.rogers.comsixday.htmlOpen ↗ [/B]

There is a good response to thie, unless of course you are implying that lance is on drugs and Jan isn't. If that is what you think then say it and be the troll, but just remember that Jan and not Lance is the only one who has tested positive for drugs.

Quoted message said:

There is a good response to thie, unless of course you are
implying that lance is on drugs and Jan isn't.

Nope
--
le Vent a Dos Davey Crockett Six-Day site:
members.rogers.comsixday.htmlOpen ↗

"Kevin Metcalfe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No. He's not. All things being equal, better riders win
races over people who are not as good as them.

Kevin, you DO realize that this will be morphed into
"Metcalfe said that Jan sucks"? Good to see you around. What
have you been up to? Doing any riding these days?

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Kevin Metcalfe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No. He's not. All things being equal, better riders win
races over people who are not as good as them.

Kevin, you DO realize that this will be morphed into
"Metcalfe said that Jan sucks"?

He doesn't suck, there is just something missing that has
more to do with his mentality than anything else I think.

Talent is a great thing to have, but I think that most of
the people around here (r.b.r) have no idea how important
the mental aspect of cycling is. That is what has made
Merckx, Hinault, Indurain and Armstrong so great.

Quoted message said:

Good to see you around. What have you been up to? Doing
any riding these days?

I'm doing a fair amount of riding, but not training per
se. I'm going to make a cameo apperance at the Wente
masters crit this weekend, but I'm not going near any race
with a hill...

Kevin Metcalfe [email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>, Kevin

Metcalfe said:

I'm doing a fair amount of riding, but not training per
se. I'm going to make a cameo apperance at the Wente
masters crit this weekend,

Please don't hook me in the sprint. I get scared when you
big burly pursuiters start throwing your weight around.

-WG

Kevin Metcalfe said:

Quoted message said:

Talent is a great thing to have, but I think that most of
the people around here (r.b.r) have no idea how important
the mental aspect of cycling is.

a long time ago i was reading about the mental aspects of
racing and there was one thing that interested me that makes
me think of jan (although i'm not saying it's his problem,
don't know anything about him really).

the problem was that even though someone wanted to win, they
always managed to sabotage their efforts somehow, eg, didn't
train enough even though they knew better, partied the night
before the big race, etc. and the solution proposed was that
they were doing these things, maybe without realizing why,
but so that if they did lose, they always had an out. what
they were really afraid of was that if they did their very
very best and made no mistakes, what if they still lost?
they would have to face up to the fact that even their best
wasn't good enough.

also, being *so* good at something that not getting first is
a failure can't be a great place to be for some people.

heather

"h squared" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

but so that if they did lose, they always had an out. what
they were really afraid of was that if they did their very
very best and made no mistakes, what if they still lost?
they would have to face up to the fact that even their
best wasn't good enough.

How many times did you hear somebody say to someone else,
'but you studied for the exam - no wonder you did so well'.
Fear of failure.

To turn the question on its head, Pro Cycling has an
article in the issue with the picture of LA on the cover
where he says, words to the effect, '*we* are always afraid
someone is doing better and more than *us*'. What would you
think if your buddy at the group ride said something like
that to you? Moreover, would you let your buddy off with
the 'my brake rubbed all day', 'i didn't drink enough', 'i
gave you the win', 'you didn't wait for me' litany without
wondering about it?

My point is that we can pick apart the character of any
professional athlete and it says more about us than it does
them. Sometimes you lose because you're slower. Sometimes
you win because you're faster.

Are you guys suggesting that the people who finish ahead of
you in a race (assuming you race) do so because you don't
have the heart or mind of a champion?

TM said:

Quoted message said:

To turn the question on its head, Pro Cycling has an
article in the issue with the picture of LA on the cover
where he says, words to the effect, '*we* are always
afraid someone is doing better and more than *us*'. What
would you think if your buddy at the group ride said
something like that to you? Moreover, would you let your
buddy off with the 'my brake rubbed all day', 'i didn't
drink enough', 'i gave you the win', 'you didn't wait for
me' litany without wondering about it?

i'm sorry, i don't really understand what you're
asking/saying. my post was about how some people always seem
to sabotage their efforts until you just want to slap them.
i'm not sure what you mean by, "would you just let your
buddy off...without wondering about it". i *do* wonder about
it, and my post was about one (only one, and probably not
the correct one, but it's interesting to me) of the ways
that question could be answered.

if it's not interesting to you, that's ok. there's never a
lot of stuff on this group on how to get mentally tougher so
i figure people don't want to talk about it.

heather

"h squared" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

my post was about one (only one, and probably not the
correct one, but it's interesting to me) of the ways that
question could be answered.

No, I agreed with you on that point.

Quoted message said:

if it's not interesting to you,

It is. That is why I posted. I think you're confused
because you're looking for the way in which I was slamming
you and I'm not. I was saying granted, but how do we
account for this?

I was merely stating my opinion that sometimes commentators
do a disservice to athletes by stating that their physical
failures are because they aren't champion material mentally.
How do we know from the couch who wrung every last bit of
talent and effort out of their ability and came up short to
a better man? How do we know that the better man isn't
stronger physically because he is a basket case
psychologically?

I was trying to lift it out of the LA/Jan conflict and talk
about mental toughness in general, but like you imply, this
is difficult at best.

h squared <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

a long time ago i was reading about the mental aspects of
racing and there was one thing that interested me that
makes me think of jan (although i'm not saying it's his
problem, don't know anything about him really).

the problem was that even though someone wanted to win,
they always managed to sabotage their efforts somehow, eg,
didn't train enough even though they knew better, partied
the night before the big race, etc. and the solution
proposed was that they were doing these things, maybe
without realizing why, but so that if they did lose, they
always had an out. what they were really afraid of was
that if they did their very very best and made no
mistakes, what if they still lost? they would have to face
up to the fact that even their best wasn't good enough.

also, being *so* good at something that not getting first
is a failure can't be a great place to be for some people.

One time that I recall Ullrich giving himself an excuse for
losing in advance was when he went to the '98 Vuelta saying
he was using it to train for World's . . . but he won that
Vuelta anyway.

NS

"h squared" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

if it's not interesting to you, that's ok. there's never a
lot of stuff on this group on how to get mentally tougher
so i figure people don't want to talk about it.

How trainable is that? In all my years w/ the US team, there
were only a couple of instances where a sports psychologist
was brought in to work with us. Most of that focused on how
deal with external distractions, such as security.

On my own, I met with a sports psych., but it was for
improving focus and motivation. I don't consider that to be
the same as mental toughness, though.

First, we would need to define mental toughness.

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How trainable is that? In all my years w/ the US team,
there were only a couple of instances where a sports
psychologist was brought in to work

with

Quoted message said:

us. Most of that focused on how deal with external
distractions, such as security.

I thought "mental toughness" was something that's part of
your make up from a young age, or maybe something you get in
your teens. I dunno, to be honest. I do know that although
I'm paid (and ride) a hell of a lot less than Jan and I'm
not a pro cyclist, I still have no problems maintaining my
weight at a reasonable level for cycling. Of course I'm not
the only one.

I guess the funny thing is that you have to be mentally
tough to ride a three week grand tour, not to mention finish
first or second in it. You also have to have the discipline
to train yourself to be ready at that level. So why is it so
hard to keep your weight down?

OK, I'd better not write him off yet as he has a good
track record in the Tour. But Ullrich was in better shape
and seemed to be better mentally with the Coast/Bianchi
chaos last year than he is with the old crowd in Telekom
this year.

Jeff

TM said:

I was trying to lift it out of the LA/Jan conflict and
talk about mental toughness in general, but like you
imply, this is difficult at best.

lol! that's what i was trying to do too. i'm sorry, i really
didn't understand what you were saying in your last post. i
asked my boyfriend to help, but he wasn't sure either.
thanks for explaining.

heather