ethical question

Quoted message said:

I wonder if it is ethical to add such a thing to another
document which they want signed.

Two pieces of paper or one.... What's the difference? It
would only be unethical if the form was somehow misleading
or deceptive, and I don't see how this one was.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Today I went to a medical provider and they gave me some
forms to sign

including

Quoted message said:

one titled

"Acknowledgement of Receipt of Notice of Privacy Practices
Advanced Beneficiary Notice"

The notice included the following (in addition to the
acknowledgement):

" Dear Patient,

Medicare and/or your insurance will only pay for services
that they determine to be "reasonable nd necessary". These
are examinations and treatments performed for specific
illnesses, symptoms, complaints or injuries. Routine
physical examinations, some screening procedures, some
laboratory studies and some medical imaging are not
covered by Medicare and may not be covered by your
insurance.

I have read the above statement and agree to pay for the
services rendered to me that are "not covered" by Medicare
or my insurance company, while I am a patient
with............

____________________
Patient Name (Please print)

_________________
Patient Signature
_____________
Date "

I signed the top portion of the form acknowledging that I
had received the Privacy Notice but did not sign the
portion shown above. When I returned the form to the
receptionist she asked me to sign the bottom portion also
and I told her I would not sign it. She did not insist but
I just wonder how many people sign things at the doctor's
office without carefully reading them.

I wonder if it is ethical to add such a thing to another
document which

they

Quoted message said:

want signed.

The fact that you didn't sign it means nothing. If you don't
agree to their billing practices, the clinic/doctor may very
well decide to not provide you with the service.

HMc

Howard McCollister said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Today I went to a medical provider and they gave me some
forms to sign

including

Quoted message said:

one titled

"Acknowledgement of Receipt of Notice of Privacy
Practices Advanced Beneficiary Notice"

The notice included the following (in addition to the
acknowledgement):

" Dear Patient,

Medicare and/or your insurance will only pay for services
that they determine to be "reasonable nd necessary".
These are examinations and treatments performed for
specific illnesses, symptoms, complaints or injuries.
Routine physical examinations, some screening procedures,
some laboratory studies and some medical imaging are not
covered by Medicare and may not be covered by your
insurance.

I have read the above statement and agree to pay for the
services rendered to me that are "not covered" by
Medicare or my insurance company, while I am a patient
with............

____________________
Patient Name (Please print)

_________________
Patient Signature
_____________
Date "

I signed the top portion of the form acknowledging that I
had received the Privacy Notice but did not sign the
portion shown above. When I returned the form to the
receptionist she asked me to sign the bottom portion also
and I told her I would not sign it. She did not insist
but I just wonder how many people sign things at the
doctor's office without carefully reading them.

I wonder if it is ethical to add such a thing to another
document which

they

Quoted message said:

want signed.

The fact that you didn't sign it means nothing. If you
don't agree to their billing practices, the clinic/doctor
may very well decide to not provide you with the service.

HMc

What service? If I am going to agree to pay for a service
I surely would want to know what service I am agreeing to
pay for. That form was an open ended promise to pay for
"whatever". That is the reason I am wondering whether it
is ethical.

Ora

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

What service? If I am going to agree to pay for a service
I surely would want to know what service I am agreeing to
pay for. That form was an open ended promise to pay for
"whatever". That is the reason I am wondering whether it
is ethical.

You are agreeing to pay for the services as outlined.
You promised only to pay whatever your insurance did not
pay for. I did the same thing a couple years ago with an
auto body shop and a carpenter when I needed some storm
damage repaired. Some principal.

--------------------------------------------------------
"Writers even write the silences"

- J. Michael Straczynski

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What service? If I am going to agree to pay for a service
I surely would

want

Quoted message said:

to know what service I am agreeing to pay for. That form
was an open

ended

Quoted message said:

promise to pay for "whatever". That is the reason I am
wondering whether

it is

Quoted message said:

ethical.

Ethics has nothing to do with it. They want you to be aware
that your insurance may not cover the cost of all of the
services, *any* services, they render to you and they want
your promise to pay for the parts your insurance doesn't
cover. If you don't agree to that, they may decide not to
provide you with the service, then or in the future. They
can decide to not accept you as a patient if you don't pay
your bills. As to your concern about "what" services, you
have the right to find that out and get cost estimates at
every step along the "service rendering" process. You can
refuse to have any service that you don't want to pay for,
and you can refuse it before the service is rendered. But if
they do the work, they expect to be paid. Just like any
other fee-for-service occupation.

HMc

In article <[email hidden]>, "Howard McCollister"

Quoted message said:

Ethics has nothing to do with it. They want you to be
aware that your insurance may not cover the cost of all of
the services, *any* services, they render to you and they
want your promise to pay for the parts your insurance
doesn't cover.

If anything is unethical, it would be to NOT let you know
that there may be these holes in coverage and then just
surprise you with them.

--------------------------------------------------------
"Writers even write the silences"

- J. Michael Straczynski

Quoted message said:

Today I went to a medical provider and they gave me some
forms to sign including one titled

"Acknowledgement of Receipt of Notice of Privacy Practices
Advanced Beneficiary Notice"

The notice included the following (in addition to the
acknowledgement):

" Dear Patient,

Medicare and/or your insurance will only pay for
services that they determine to be "reasonable nd
necessary". These are examinations and treatments
performed for specific illnesses, symptoms,
complaints or injuries. Routine physical
examinations, some screening procedures, some
laboratory studies and some medical imaging are
not covered by Medicare and may not be covered by
your insurance.

I have read the above statement and agree to pay
for the services rendered to me that are "not
covered" by Medicare or my insurance company,
while I am a patient with............

____________________
Patient Name (Please print)

_________________
Patient Signature
_____________
Date "

I signed the top portion of the form acknowledging that I
had received the Privacy Notice but did not sign the
portion shown above. When I returned the form to the
receptionist she asked me to sign the bottom portion also
and I told her I would not sign it. She did not insist but
I just wonder how many people sign things at the doctor's
office without carefully reading them.

I wonder if it is ethical to add such a thing to another
document which they want signed.

Ora

There seems to be no ethical problem with the request.
For that matter, I don't think it is unethical to ask a
patient to pay for treatment that an insurance company
or Medicare declines to pay for. OTOH, I don't know if
there are any LEGAL problems with putting what is
obviously office policy on a form otherwise mandated by
federal law.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
dentaltwins.comdentaltwins.comOpen ↗

On 2004-04-21 12:58:35 -0400, [email hidden] said:

There's no ethical dilemma here; however, I agree that two
forms would be clearer than one.

In my office, we have a general "financial responsibility"
form that says basically that you (the patient) are
responsible for the portion of your bill that may not be
covered by your insurance carrier. In my opioion, that's a
no-brainer. If you don't want to sign that one, I'd say find
another doctor.

The second form is what we call a "waiver" (technically
called an Advance Beneficiary Notice (ABN)), and it's
required by Medicare (and generally a good idea regardless
of the insurance carrier you're dealing with). It is signed
at the time a service is provided that we have reason to
believe may not be covered by insurance (e.g., a physical,
certain screening laboratory tests, a cosmetic procedure,
etc.). An estimate of the cost is included on the form.
Again, this form is *required* by Medicare...in fact, they
have a specific form that you're supposed to use, and you
aren't supposed to create your own.

Quoted message said:

Today I went to a medical provider and they gave me some
forms to sign including one titled "Acknowledgement of
Receipt of Notice of Privacy Practices Advanced
Beneficiary Notice"

The notice included the following (in addition to the
acknowledgement):

" Dear Patient,

Medicare and/or your insurance will only pay for
services that they determine to be "reasonable nd
necessary". These are examinations and treatments
performed for specific illnesses, symptoms,
complaints or injuries. Routine physical
examinations, some screening procedures, some
laboratory studies and some medical imaging are not
covered by Medicare and may not be covered by your
insurance.

I have read the above statement and agree to pay for
the services rendered to me that are "not covered"
by Medicare or my insurance company, while I am a
patient with............

____________________
Patient Name (Please print)

_________________
Patient Signature
_____________
Date "

I signed the top portion of the form acknowledging that I
had received the Privacy Notice but did not sign the
portion shown above. When I returned the form to the
receptionist she asked me to sign the bottom portion also
and I told her I would not sign it. She did not insist but
I just wonder how many people sign things at the doctor's
office without carefully reading them.

I wonder if it is ethical to add such a thing to another
document which they want signed.

Ora

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS said:

Quoted message said:

Today I went to a medical provider and they gave me some
forms to sign including one titled

"Acknowledgement of Receipt of Notice of Privacy Practices
Advanced Beneficiary Notice"

The notice included the following (in addition to the
acknowledgement):

" Dear Patient,

Medicare and/or your insurance will only pay for
services that they determine to be "reasonable nd
necessary". These are examinations and treatments
performed for specific illnesses, symptoms,
complaints or injuries. Routine physical
examinations, some screening procedures, some
laboratory studies and some medical imaging are
not covered by Medicare and may not be covered by
your insurance.

I have read the above statement and agree to pay
for the services rendered to me that are "not
covered" by Medicare or my insurance company,
while I am a patient with............

____________________
Patient Name (Please print)

_________________
Patient Signature
_____________
Date "

I signed the top portion of the form acknowledging that I
had received the Privacy Notice but did not sign the
portion shown above. When I returned the form to the
receptionist she asked me to sign the bottom portion also
and I told her I would not sign it. She did not insist
but I just wonder how many people sign things at the
doctor's office without carefully reading them.

I wonder if it is ethical to add such a thing to another
document which they want signed.

Ora

There seems to be no ethical problem with the request.
For that matter, I don't think it is unethical to ask a
patient to pay for treatment that an insurance company
or Medicare declines to pay for. OTOH, I don't know if
there are any LEGAL problems with putting what is
obviously office policy on a form otherwise mandated by
federal law.

Steve

That is what motivated me to ask my question. It seemed that
there should be two forms, not one.

Ora

On 2004-04-21 18:52:55 -0400, anon <[email hidden]> said:

Oh, and regarding the Medicare ABN...if a patient refuses to
sign it, we can decline to provide the service.

Quoted message said:

On 2004-04-21 12:58:35 -0400, [email hidden] said:

There's no ethical dilemma here; however, I agree that two
forms would be clearer than one.

In my office, we have a general "financial responsibility"
form that says basically that you (the patient) are
responsible for the portion of your bill that may not be
covered by your insurance carrier. In my opioion, that's a
no-brainer. If you don't want to sign that one, I'd say
find another doctor.

The second form is what we call a "waiver" (technically
called an Advance Beneficiary Notice (ABN)), and it's
required by Medicare (and generally a good idea regardless
of the insurance carrier you're dealing with). It is
signed at the time a service is provided that we have
reason to believe may not be covered by insurance (e.g., a
physical, certain screening laboratory tests, a cosmetic
procedure, etc.). An estimate of the cost is included on
the form. Again, this form is *required* by Medicare...in
fact, they have a specific form that you're supposed to
use, and you aren't supposed to create your own.

Quoted message said:

Today I went to a medical provider and they gave me some
forms to sign including one titled "Acknowledgement of
Receipt of Notice of Privacy Practices Advanced
Beneficiary Notice"

The notice included the following (in addition to the
acknowledgement):

" Dear Patient,

Medicare and/or your insurance will only pay for
services that they determine to be "reasonable nd
necessary". These are examinations and treatments
performed for specific illnesses, symptoms,
complaints or injuries. Routine physical
examinations, some screening procedures, some
laboratory studies and some medical imaging are not
covered by Medicare and may not be covered by your
insurance.

I have read the above statement and agree to pay for
the services rendered to me that are "not covered"
by Medicare or my insurance company, while I am a
patient with............

____________________
Patient Name (Please print)

_________________
Patient Signature
_____________
Date "

I signed the top portion of the form acknowledging that I
had received the Privacy Notice but did not sign the
portion shown above. When I returned the form to the
receptionist she asked me to sign the bottom portion also
and I told her I would not sign it. She did not insist
but I just wonder how many people sign things at the
doctor's office without carefully reading them.

I wonder if it is ethical to add such a thing to another
document which they want signed.

Ora

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There seems to be no ethical problem with the
request. For that

matter, I don't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

think it is unethical to ask a patient to pay for
treatment that an

insurance

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

company or Medicare declines to pay for. OTOH, I don't
know if there are any LEGAL problems with putting what

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

obviously office policy on a form otherwise mandated by
federal law.

Steve

That is what motivated me to ask my question. It seemed
that there should

be

Quoted message said:

two forms, not one.

I see your point. However, they may well have assumed that
if you didn't agree to the second point, the first point
would be moot since you wouldn't receive services anyway.
Acknowledge/agree to both points or hit the road. Something
like that.

You obviously surprised the particular clerk and she didn't
know what to do. Naturally, you are still obligated to pay
your bill.

HMc

Quoted message said:

That is what motivated me to ask my question. It seemed
that there should be two forms, not one.

Ora

Point taken. If the patient sees the second question on
the same page on a form required by federal law, it
could be construed to have an element of coersion.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
dentaltwins.comdentaltwins.comOpen ↗