Freedom of choice

Quoted message said:

Subject: Freedom of choice From: "Peter Moran"
[email hidden] Date: 4/8/2004 3:30 PM Pacific Standard
Time Message-id: <4075e07c$0$608$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
01.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:40749793$0$26949$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
02.brisbane.pipenetwork

s.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anth Snipped -

Quoted message said:

No you don't, Anth. You want *informed* choice. Are you
being offered

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cure, or just that you might live a little longer? If
it is cure, and

this

Quoted message said:

is what the testimonials are usually intended to
convey, what is the

actual

Quoted message said:

cure rate? What happened to the last ten or twenty
patients who used

this

Quoted message said:

method? How does any claimed cure rate compare with the
other fifty or

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

alternative treatments on offer? What is the success
rate with my particular kind of cancer, as compared
with readily available data as to

the

Quoted message said:

results with conventional treatments?

Unless you can somehow extract that kind of information
from the alt.med mess, you are not exerting any kind of
informed choice at all. You are making a emotionally
driven gamble on terribly scanty information and

claims

Quoted message said:

that you cannot verify.

Peter Moran.

................................... Gee Anth if you apply
that criteria to conventional cancer treatment you will
most likely run a mile before you let any of em touch you
, their record is not exactly a huge success is it ? , ya
gotta laugh at their blinkered vision .

Well, it so happens you can easily find out that the cure
rate of certain cancers including most metastatic cancers
is very poor with conventional treatments, alongside
information about high cure rates with others. High
standards of informed consent are also attached to any
invasive medical treatment these days. Who is it that is
being blinkered?

Quoted message said:

What he means by freedom of choice is limiting your
freedom so you only

have

Quoted message said:

one choice , their way or their way .

That is grossly unfair

We will see.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

you will continue to be teased with dubious testimonial,
worthless animal studies, historical claims no one can
confirm and absurd or outdated theory.

ZZzz.

Quoted message said:

any old [censored] presented as a cancer cure. The most abject
charlatans thrive in such an environment.

Quoted message said:

Even the more sincere practitioners find it wise not to
widely advertise their, at best, mediocre treatment results
(I have posted a number of these here previously).

They don't need to advertise.

Quoted message said:

Pressure has to come from the consumer. It also should be
coming from alt med sympathisers, but they seem to be, in
general, too thick to understand where their own best
interests lie.

Peter Moran

Now back to the grossly unfair.

It wasn't, it was the truth.

Quoted message said:

What he means by freedom of choice is limiting your
freedom so you only have

Quoted message said:

one choice , their way or their way

Chose any other way and be prepared to be call names.

Quoted message said:

any old [censored] presented as a cancer cure.

Quoted message said:

The most abject charlatans thrive in such an environment.

Quoted message said:

med sympathisers, but they seem to be, in general, too
thick to understand where their own best interests lie.

This is grossly unfair.

Jan

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:40749793$0$26949$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anth Snipped -

Quoted message said:

No you don't, Anth. You want *informed* choice. Are
you being

offered

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cure, or just that you might live a little longer? If
it is cure,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this

Quoted message said:

is what the testimonials are usually intended to
convey, what is the

actual

Quoted message said:

cure rate? What happened to the last ten or twenty
patients who used

this

Quoted message said:

method? How does any claimed cure rate compare with
the other fifty or

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

alternative treatments on offer? What is the success
rate with my particular kind of cancer, as compared
with readily available data as

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

results with conventional treatments?

Unless you can somehow extract that kind of
information from the

alt.med

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mess, you are not exerting any kind of informed choice
at all. You

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

making a emotionally driven gamble on terribly scanty
information and

claims

Quoted message said:

that you cannot verify.

Peter Moran.

................................... Gee Anth if you
apply that criteria to conventional cancer treatment you
will most likely run a mile before you let any of em
touch you , their record is not exactly a huge success
is it ? , ya gotta laugh at their blinkered vision .

Well, it so happens you can easily find out that the cure
rate of certain cancers including most metastatic cancers
is very poor with conventional treatments, alongside
information about high cure rates with others.

High

Quoted message said:

standards of informed consent are also attached to any
invasive medical treatment these days. Who is it that is
being blinkered?

Quoted message said:

What he means by freedom of choice is limiting your
freedom so you only

have

Quoted message said:

one choice , their way or their way .

That is grossly unfair. I am trying to get you and others
to understand that you have the absolute right to ask
anyone offering you an alternative cancer treatment " how
many patients like me have you treated and what happened
to them?". Until you exert your right to have clear
information you will continue to be teased with dubious
testimonial, worthless animal studies, historical claims
no one can confirm and absurd or outdated theory.

What you want to know is "how often does it really work?"
and also "which ones work best?".

Why is it so hard to get such information? Well, there are
so many desperate cancer patients out there that
commercial success is assured for any old [censored] presented
as a cancer cure. The most abject charlatans

thrive

Quoted message said:

in such an environment. Even the more sincere
practitioners find it

wise

Quoted message said:

not to widely advertise their, at best, mediocre treatment
results (I have posted a number of these here previously).

Pressure has to come from the consumer. It also should be
coming from

alt

Quoted message said:

med sympathisers, but they seem to be, in general, too
thick to understand where their own best interests lie.

Peter Moran

I'd like to add that Bew's response indicates how successful
the huge alternative cancer industry and its supporters have
been in shifting focus away away from the simple interests
of the cancer patient.

If you can keep focus on the question of "choice", or the
evils of EOM. no one is examining the ethical and
scientific concerns surrounding the promotion of dubious
treatments to very sick people, and asking about patinet
rights to fully informed consent.

Certainly no evil of conventional medicine proves that an
alternative cancer treatment does what is claimed for it.

Peter Moran

In article
<[email hidden]
.au>,

Peter Moran said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:40749793$0$26949$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
02.brisbane.pipenetworks.com .au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anth Snipped -

> No you don't, Anth. You want *informed* choice. Are
> you being

offered

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

> cure, or just that you might live a little longer?
> If it is cure,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this
> is what the testimonials are usually intended to
> convey, what is the
actual
> cure rate? What happened to the last ten or twenty
> patients who used
this
> method? How does any claimed cure rate compare with
> the other fifty or

so

Quoted message said:

> alternative treatments on offer? What is the success
> rate with my particular kind of cancer, as compared
> with readily available data as

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the
> results with conventional treatments?
>
> Unless you can somehow extract that kind of
> information from the

alt.med

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> mess, you are not exerting any kind of informed
> choice at all. You

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> making a emotionally driven gamble on terribly
> scanty information and
claims
> that you cannot verify.
>
> Peter Moran.
................................... Gee Anth if you
apply that criteria to conventional cancer treatment
you will most likely run a mile before you let any of
em touch you , their record is not exactly a huge
success is it ? , ya gotta laugh at their blinkered
vision .

Well, it so happens you can easily find out that the
cure rate of certain cancers including most metastatic
cancers is very poor with conventional treatments,
alongside information about high cure rates with others.

High

Quoted message said:

standards of informed consent are also attached to any
invasive medical treatment these days. Who is it that is
being blinkered?

Quoted message said:

What he means by freedom of choice is limiting your
freedom so you only

have

Quoted message said:

one choice , their way or their way .

That is grossly unfair. I am trying to get you and
others to understand that you have the absolute right to
ask anyone offering you an alternative cancer treatment
" how many patients like me have you treated and what
happened to them?". Until you exert your right to have
clear information you will continue to be teased with
dubious testimonial, worthless animal studies,
historical claims no one can confirm and absurd or
outdated theory.

What you want to know is "how often does it really
work?" and also "which ones work best?".

Why is it so hard to get such information? Well, there
are so many desperate cancer patients out there that
commercial success is assured for any old [censored] presented
as a cancer cure. The most abject charlatans

thrive

Quoted message said:

in such an environment. Even the more sincere
practitioners find it

wise

Quoted message said:

not to widely advertise their, at best, mediocre
treatment results (I have posted a number of these here
previously).

Pressure has to come from the consumer. It also should
be coming from

alt

Quoted message said:

med sympathisers, but they seem to be, in general, too
thick to understand where their own best interests lie.

Peter Moran

I'd like to add that Bew's response indicates how
successful the huge alternative cancer industry and its
supporters have been in shifting focus away away from the
simple interests of the cancer patient.

Indeed.

Quoted message said:

If you can keep focus on the question of "choice", or the
evils of EOM. no one is examining the ethical and
scientific concerns surrounding the promotion of dubious
treatments to very sick people, and asking about patinet
rights to fully informed consent.

Before I do surgery, I have to get informed consent, citing
the rationale behind the surgery, the expected success rate,
the potential complications and their rates. Similarly, the
oncologists I work with, before they give chemotherapy, have
to cite similar information. Altie practitioners don't have
to do any such thing.

Quoted message said:

Certainly no evil of conventional medicine proves that an
alternative cancer treatment does what is claimed for it.

Indeed. It's a classic non-sequitir. Just because
conventional medicine doesn't have very good treatments
for certain diseases (pancreatic cancer, for instance), it
does not follow that alternative medicine does any better
with such diseases or even does what is claimed for it for
such diseases.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do
|you inconvenience me with questions?"

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Freedom of choice From: "Peter Moran"
[email hidden] Date: 4/8/2004 3:30 PM Pacific
Standard Time Message-id:

<4075e07c$0$608$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
01.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:40749793$0$26949$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
02.brisbane.pipenetwork

s.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anth Snipped -

> No you don't, Anth. You want *informed* choice. Are
> you being

offered

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

> cure, or just that you might live a little longer? If
> it is cure,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this
> is what the testimonials are usually intended to
> convey, what is the
actual
> cure rate? What happened to the last ten or twenty
> patients who

used

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this
> method? How does any claimed cure rate compare with
> the other fifty

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

so

Quoted message said:

> alternative treatments on offer? What is the success
> rate with my particular kind of cancer, as compared
> with readily available data as

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the
> results with conventional treatments?
>
> Unless you can somehow extract that kind of
> information from the

alt.med

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> mess, you are not exerting any kind of informed
> choice at all. You

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> making a emotionally driven gamble on terribly scanty
> information and
claims
> that you cannot verify.
>
> Peter Moran.
................................... Gee Anth if you
apply that criteria to conventional cancer treatment

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will most likely run a mile before you let any of em
touch you , their record is not exactly a huge success
is it ? , ya gotta laugh at their blinkered vision .

Well, it so happens you can easily find out that the cure
rate of certain cancers including most metastatic cancers
is very poor with conventional treatments, alongside
information about high cure rates with others.

High

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

standards of informed consent are also attached to any
invasive medical treatment these days. Who is it that is
being blinkered?

Quoted message said:

What he means by freedom of choice is limiting your
freedom so you only

have

Quoted message said:

one choice , their way or their way .

That is grossly unfair

We will see.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

you will continue to be teased with dubious testimonial,
worthless

animal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

studies, historical claims no one can confirm and absurd
or outdated theory.

ZZzz.

Quoted message said:

any old [censored] presented as a cancer cure. The most abject
charlatans

thrive

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in such an environment.

Quoted message said:

Even the more sincere practitioners find it wise not to
widely advertise their, at best, mediocre treatment
results (I

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

posted a number of these here previously).

They don't need to advertise.

Quoted message said:

Pressure has to come from the consumer. It also should be
coming from

alt

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

med sympathisers, but they seem to be, in general, too
thick to

understand

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

where their own best interests lie.

Peter Moran

Now back to the grossly unfair.

It wasn't, it was the truth.

Quoted message said:

What he means by freedom of choice is limiting your
freedom so you only have

Quoted message said:

one choice , their way or their way

Chose any other way and be prepared to be call names.

Quoted message said:

any old [censored] presented as a cancer cure.

Quoted message said:

The most abject charlatans thrive in such an environment.

Quoted message said:

med sympathisers, but they seem to be, in general, too
thick to

understand

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

where their own best interests lie.

This is grossly unfair.

Jan

Umm? Did you have a point?

Is this to confirm the suggestion that some alternative
supporters are too thick to understand where their own best
interests lie.?

Or are you saying that it is not a good idea for cancer
patients and alt supporters to be pushing for more precise
information about alternative cancer treatments? Why not?

Is it just hat you feel the need to say something in
response to anything I post?

Don't bother answering unless you have something to say.

Peter Moran

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

Umm? Did you have a point?

I made it, sorry if you are too thick to understand.

Jan says it is always wrong to belittle. Indeed!!

Did not Jan just criticize the "gang" for doing exactly what
she is doing?? Poor Jan.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is this to confirm the suggestion that some alternative
supporters are too thick to understand where their own
best interests lie.?

No, it's to point out your being grossly unfair, while
accusing others of same.

Diversion noted.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or are you saying that it is not a good idea for cancer
patients and alt
supporters to be pushing for more precise information
about alternative cancer treatments?

Go back and read what I said.

Diversion noted.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is it just hat you feel the need to say something in
response to anything I post?

Only if you post garbage.

Belittling noted.

Quoted message said:

Umm, more control problems???

Belittling noted.

Quoted message said:

You see that is one thing you need to get over as it is
another reason why people turn to alternative medicine.
They are quite tired of the arrogance.

Belittling noted.

Quoted message said:

Take two steps backwards, do not pass go, and don't even
think of telling me what to do.

And Jan tells others they have control problem. Poor Jan.
Still transferring her weaknesses to others.

Aloha,

Rich

Quoted message said:

Jan

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Freedom of choice From: "Peter Moran"
[email hidden] Date: 4/8/2004 4:21 PM Pacific Standard
Time Message-id: <4075ec92$0$616$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
01.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au>

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:40749793$0$26949$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
02.brisbane.pipenetwork

s.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anth Snipped -

> No you don't, Anth. You want *informed* choice. Are
> you being

offered

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

> cure, or just that you might live a little longer? If
> it is cure,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this
> is what the testimonials are usually intended to
> convey, what is the
actual
> cure rate? What happened to the last ten or twenty
> patients who used
this
> method? How does any claimed cure rate compare with
> the other fifty or

so

Quoted message said:

> alternative treatments on offer? What is the success
> rate with my particular kind of cancer, as compared
> with readily available data as

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the
> results with conventional treatments?
>
> Unless you can somehow extract that kind of
> information from the

alt.med

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> mess, you are not exerting any kind of informed
> choice at all. You

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> making a emotionally driven gamble on terribly scanty
> information and
claims
> that you cannot verify.
>
> Peter Moran.
................................... Gee Anth if you
apply that criteria to conventional cancer treatment
you will most likely run a mile before you let any of
em touch you , their record is not exactly a huge
success is it ? , ya gotta laugh at their blinkered
vision .

Well, it so happens you can easily find out that the cure
rate of certain cancers including most metastatic cancers
is very poor with conventional treatments, alongside
information about high cure rates with others.

High

Quoted message said:

standards of informed consent are also attached to any
invasive medical treatment these days. Who is it that is
being blinkered?

Quoted message said:

What he means by freedom of choice is limiting your
freedom so you only

have

Quoted message said:

one choice , their way or their way .

That is grossly unfair. I am trying to get you and others
to understand that you have the absolute right to ask
anyone offering you an alternative cancer treatment " how
many patients like me have you treated and what happened
to them?". Until you exert your right to have clear
information you will continue to be teased with dubious
testimonial, worthless animal studies, historical claims
no one can confirm and absurd or outdated theory.

What you want to know is "how often does it really work?"
and also "which ones work best?".

Why is it so hard to get such information? Well, there
are so many desperate cancer patients out there that
commercial success is assured for any old [censored] presented
as a cancer cure. The most abject charlatans

thrive

Quoted message said:

in such an environment. Even the more sincere
practitioners find it

wise

Quoted message said:

not to widely advertise their, at best, mediocre
treatment results (I have posted a number of these here
previously).

Pressure has to come from the consumer. It also should be
coming from

alt

Quoted message said:

med sympathisers, but they seem to be, in general, too
thick to understand where their own best interests lie.

Peter Moran

I'd like to add that Bew's response indicates how
successful the huge alternative cancer industry and its
supporters have been in shifting focus away away from the
simple interests of the cancer patient.

I see what she had to say hit home. What you would like to
add is simply more of your hatred for alternative.

It is a fact that alternative practitioners and doctors as a
rule are take much time and listen to their patients.

Quoted message said:

If you can keep focus on the question of "choice", or the
evils of EOM. no one is examining the ethical and
scientific concerns surrounding the promotion of dubious
treatments to very sick people, and asking about patinet
rights to fully informed consent.

Umm, you forgot most patients have been through the gamut of
conventional and left unsatisfied.

Speaking of consent forms, do you feel this strongly about
dentists using them to let their patients know the risks of
metal in the mouth??

I didn't think so.

Quoted message said:

Certainly no evil of conventional medicine proves that an
alternative cancer treatment does what is claimed for it.

Peter Moran

Say what?? We see everyday right HERE just how ready
conventional is to accept *ANYTHING* alternative.

YOU keep showing us.

Jan