Question about depression and diet

RE/

Quoted message said:

If it's all related to serotonin, does evidence show that
my body would begin to normalize its serotonin levels if I
endured the lower-refined carb diet for an extended period
of time, say a few weeks? I'd hate to go months and months
with chronically low serotonin. If my body will adjust
however that would give me some hope that sticking with it
might cure/ameliorate my chronic depression.

Dunno from biochemistry, but I've been a self-described low-
level depressive for as long as I can remember.

Also a moderate, but not extreme binge eater.

Food is my friend. If I feel bad, I eat to try to feel
better. This gets a little silly sometimes when I try to eat
myself out of an upset stomach or eat more to feel better
because I feel so lousey after stuffing myself....

Unfortunately, it started to catch up with me big-time this
winter: gained 12 pounds in 3 months. Until then, I'd been
fairly stable year-to-year - maybe five pounds every winter,
shed every spring.

Went full-veggie around the second week in January in a
workaround effort - trying to at least lower the caloric
density and stop gaining weight. I have thoughts of going
all the way and trying Ornish's low-fat veggie...but don't
think that'll be happening anytime soon...maybe if I feel
good after a year or so of what I'm doing now...

Three observations on the new eating habits:

1) Sometimes I get *really* tired, but not enough to worry
me....usually cured by a meal.

2) I used to almost pass out after eating - really
dopey. Now I generally leave the table feeling more
alert than when I sat down. Stuffed...but alert...
not semi-comatose.

3) My belt has come in a full notch. Haven't weighed myself,
but climbing hills on the bike feels better.

4) My binging is way, way down - to the point where I'm
actually getting to bed some nights without eating
anything after dinner. Tried the odd chunk of
chocolate/bowl of ice cream here and there. Just didn't
back the same old punch..in fact the chocolate didn't
taste very good at all.

5) I eat what I want when I want and food tastes really
good. I think honest physiological hunger is highly
underrated as a food enhancer.
--
PeteCresswell

"Chad C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi folks,

I address this at you fine people because I follow
this newsgroup and respect almost everybody here. I'm
sorry if this is slightly off topic, ignore it if you
wish.

Chronic moderate depression has plagued me for the
last 5 years or so. It saps my interest in life. Makes
me irritable, etc. I notice one thing however: when I
eat lots of sugar and sugary items, I become very
happy and motivated for an hour or two afterwards.
That's how I want to feel all of the time. Reading
over the Internet I've found this may be because of
enhanced serotonin activity when you have an insulin
rush. Now, I'm also trying to lose weight by eating
healthy foods with low glycemic values, low and no
sugar, plenty of fats, proteins, etc, in small
portions all day long (about 1200-1500 calories).
Invariably after a few days of such a regimen I get
quite depressed. Very depressed in fact, and I binge
eat probably 2000-3000 calories in the space of an
hour. I immediately feel very, very good! My diet is
varied and I take a good multivitamin, so I think I
can rule nutritional deficiency out. I'm suspecting it
might be the lack of refined carbohydrates that
contributes to the huge desire for relief after a few
days of a healthy lower carb diet. Would you folks
tend to concur? If it's all related to serotonin, does
evidence show that my body would begin to normalize
its serotonin levels if I endured the lower-refined
carb diet for an extended period of time, say a few
weeks? I'd hate to go months and months with
chronically low serotonin. If my body will adjust
however that would give me some hope that sticking
with it might cure/ameliorate my chronic depression.

Thanks for your opinions folks,

-Chad

PS: What do you think about St. John's Wort as a
treatment in my case?

First, St. John's Wort or anti-depressants are hardly long
term solutions.

Second, I've posted several posts that deal with carbs and
depression. See:

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
osting.google.com&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-
8%26group%3Dsci.med.nutrition

for one of my posts. You may also want to google search for
others posts on this topic.

TC

Chad C. said:

I address this at you fine people because I follow
this newsgroup and respect almost everybody here. I'm
sorry if this is slightly off topic, ignore it if you
wish.

Chronic moderate depression has plagued me for the
last 5 years or so. It saps my interest in life. Makes
me irritable, etc. I notice one thing however: when I
eat lots of sugar and sugary items, I become very
happy and motivated for an hour or two afterwards.
That's how I want to feel all of the time. Reading
over the Internet I've found this may be because of
enhanced serotonin activity when you have an insulin
rush.

Interesting. Do you get much exercise?

Quoted message said:

Now, I'm also trying to lose weight by eating healthy
foods with low glycemic values, low and no sugar, plenty
of fats, proteins, etc, in small portions all day long
(about 1200-1500 calories). Invariably after a few days
of such a regimen I get quite depressed. Very depressed
in fact,

How many days, exactly?

I get a similar reaction whenever I make a serious cut
in my calorie intake. I feel *horrible*, but (as I
recently discovered after a truly wretched week) it
passes after ~5 days.

Quoted message said:

and I binge eat probably 2000-3000 calories in the space
of an hour. I immediately feel very, very good!

Yeah, not surprising.

Quoted message said:

My diet is varied and I take a good multivitamin, so I
think I can rule nutritional deficiency out. I'm
suspecting it might be the lack of refined carbohydrates
that contributes to the huge desire for relief after a
few days of a healthy lower carb diet. Would you folks
tend to concur?

It sounds to me like, well, you need carbohydrates...

I know that for many people carbohydrates are bad, but then
for other people they're good. If you're getting good
quality foods, and you feel okay, and your blood test
numbers are fine, I wouldn't suggest switching to a diet
that makes you feel bad. Are there any natural foods that
give you a feel-good reaction, fruits, maybe? Do starchy
things affect how you feel?

Quoted message said:

If it's all related to serotonin, does evidence show
that my body would begin to normalize its serotonin
levels if I endured the lower-refined carb diet for an
extended period of time, say a few weeks?

You might adapt even faster than that, but that sounds
reasonable.

Quoted message said:

I'd hate to go months and months with chronically low
serotonin. If my body will adjust however that would
give me some hope that sticking with it might
cure/ameliorate my chronic depression.

If it works, it would be worth the effort. Chronic
depression is horrible.

Quoted message said:

PS: What do you think about St. John's Wort as a
treatment in my case?

I take St. John's Wort (as advised by my doctor). It is very
good if your problem is overreacting. If things that get you
down set you off into a spiral of despair, St. John's wort
will put a stop to that. It takes 6-8 weeks to start
working. Right away, though, it'll make you profoundly
sleepy about 2 hours before you want to go to bed. WHENEVER
you want to go to bed. Very annoying. That wears off
eventually.

I'd give it a try.

--
- Laurel * * * amberdine.comamberdine.comOpen ↗

On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 10:11:57 -0700, "Chad C." <[email hidden]>
posted:

Quoted message said:

Hi folks,

I address this at you fine people because I follow this
newsgroup and respect almost everybody here. I'm sorry
if this is slightly off topic, ignore it if you wish.

Chronic moderate depression has plagued me for the last
5 years or so. It saps my interest in life. Makes me
irritable, etc. I notice one thing however: when I eat
lots of sugar and sugary items, I become very happy and
motivated for an hour or two afterwards. That's how I
want to feel all of the time. Reading over the Internet
I've found this may be because of enhanced serotonin
activity when you have an insulin rush. Now, I'm also
trying to lose weight by eating healthy foods with low
glycemic values, low and no sugar, plenty of fats,
proteins, etc, in small portions all day long (about
1200-1500 calories). Invariably after a few days of
such a regimen I get quite depressed. Very depressed in
fact, and I binge eat probably 2000-3000 calories in
the space of an hour. I immediately feel very, very
good! My diet is varied and I take a good multivitamin,
so I think I can rule nutritional deficiency out. I'm
suspecting it might be the lack of refined
carbohydrates that contributes to the huge desire for
relief after a few days of a healthy lower carb diet.
Would you folks tend to concur? If it's all related to
serotonin, does evidence show that my body would begin
to normalize its serotonin levels if I endured the lower-
refined carb diet for an extended period of time, say a
few weeks? I'd hate to go months and months with
chronically low serotonin. If my body will adjust
however that would give me some hope that sticking with
it might cure/ameliorate my chronic depression.

Thanks for your opinions folks,

-Chad

PS: What do you think about St. John's Wort as a
treatment in my case?

How do you know it has anything to do with serotonin levels?
Have you tested this hypothesis with a low GI carb diet and
a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) ?

Quoted message said:

How do you know it has anything to do with serotonin
levels? Have you tested this hypothesis with a low GI carb
diet and a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) ?

You're absolutely right. I have no way of knowing. I
haven't tested my theory using the scientific method.
There's some evidence to support the theory of
carbohydrate (specifically, high glycemic load)
addiction however, in general. I don't know if that's
what plagues me or not however. All my life I've eaten
sugar and high fructose corn syrup (and other nutritive
sweeteners) in exceedingly high amounts, I'd peg my
average daily intake of those substances at 25% or more,
for about the past 10 years. I'm sure that's above
average. And at the very least, I have an emotional
addiction to eat foods laden with sweetness and fine
texture. But you're right, I should be more careful
before arriving at a conclusion. I'm really not in a
position to know anything anyway.

Thanks,

Chad

It is not off topic at all. If anyone says it is, they are
mistaken. The problem maybe that you are developing
serotonin resistance. A tablespoon of inositol powder per
day may help restore your serotonin sensitivity. See this
Pubmed abstracts, 11853115 and 11386498

I'd not advise mixing this additional inositol with the use
of a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor drugs as
serotonin syndrome maybe possible. I am not clear this is
true or false but I want to cover myself with this warning.
Use one or the other but not both together. Understand alone
that the inositol is quite safe while alone the SSRIs drugs
can have adverse effects such as chemical dependency.

A normal diet contain something around the range of 500 to
1000 milligrams of inositol. Inositol is called a B-vitamin.
It is required by every cell in your body.

Any chance you are developing T2 diabetes? As that condition
is related to impaired inositol metabolism.

These ideas may or may not work depending on what the
underlying metabolic defect causing your depression. Or in
short YMMV.

William A. Noyes

"Chad C." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi folks,

I address this at you fine people because I follow
this newsgroup and respect almost everybody here. I'm
sorry if this is slightly off topic, ignore it if you
wish.

Chronic moderate depression has plagued me for the
last 5 years or so. It saps my interest in life. Makes
me irritable, etc. I notice one thing however: when I
eat lots of sugar and sugary items, I become very
happy

and

Quoted message said:

motivated for an hour or two afterwards. That's how I
want to feel all of the time. Reading over the Internet
I've found this may be because of enhanced serotonin
activity when you have an insulin rush. Now, I'm also
trying to lose weight by eating healthy foods with low
glycemic values,

low

Quoted message said:

and no sugar, plenty of fats, proteins, etc, in small
portions all day

long

Quoted message said:

(about 1200-1500 calories). Invariably after a few days of
such a regimen

I

Quoted message said:

get quite depressed. Very depressed in fact, and I binge
eat probably 2000-3000 calories in the space of an hour. I
immediately feel very, very good! My diet is varied and I
take a good multivitamin, so I think I can rule
nutritional deficiency out. I'm suspecting it might be the
lack of refined carbohydrates that contributes to the huge
desire for relief after

a

Quoted message said:

few days of a healthy lower carb diet. Would you folks
tend to concur? If it's all related to serotonin, does
evidence show that my body would begin to normalize its
serotonin levels if I endured the lower-refined carb diet
for an extended period of time, say a few weeks? I'd hate
to go months and months with chronically low serotonin. If
my body will adjust however that would give me some hope
that sticking with it might cure/ameliorate my chronic
depression.

Thanks for your opinions folks,

-Chad

PS: What do you think about St. John's Wort as a
treatment in my case?

On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 17:19:45 -0700, "Chad C." <[email hidden]>
posted:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How do you know it has anything to do with serotonin
levels? Have you tested this hypothesis with a low GI
carb diet and a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor
(SSRI) ?

You're absolutely right. I have no way of knowing. I
haven't tested my theory using the scientific method.
There's some evidence to support the theory of
carbohydrate (specifically, high glycemic load)
addiction however, in general. I don't know if that's
what plagues me or not however. All my life I've eaten
sugar and high fructose corn syrup (and other nutritive
sweeteners) in exceedingly high amounts, I'd peg my
average daily intake of those substances at 25% or
more, for about the past 10 years. I'm sure that's
above average. And at the very least, I have an
emotional addiction to eat foods laden with sweetness
and fine texture. But you're right, I should be more
careful before arriving at a conclusion. I'm really not
in a position to know anything anyway.

Thanks,

Chad

I suggested what I would do if I were in your position. Get
a doc to prescribe an effective SSRI and see if you could
ameliorate your depression when carb (sweet) deprived.

There are other neurotransmitters besides seratonin which
can cause depression if their levels in your brain become
too low. Assuming you are middle-aged or older, you should
consider having your level of stomach acid checked
(Heidelberg test). Almost all of the neurotransmitters
require essential amino acids as their precursors. For the
stomach to break down protein into simple amino acids, it
requires a pH of 2.5 or lower. As people age, the amount of
stomach acid that they are able to produce declines
steadily, making it more likely that various health
problems, including depression, will arise.

Of course, if this hypothesis is correct in your case, you
could take appropriate amino acid supplements to eliminate
the depression. However, treating that single symptom,
instead of finding and eliminating the underlying problem,
leads to more serious health problems down the road.

Ed Friedman

10:11:57 Tue, 6 Apr 2004sci.med.nutrition

Chad C. at Chad C. said:

Chronic moderate depression has plagued me for the last
5 years or so. It saps my interest in life.

I'm no expert... but I have read recently that a relative
shortage of omega-3 fatty acids in the diet can lead to
the depression symptoms you describe. Maybe try a
supplement, or eat some foods rich in it for a few weeks
and see what happens?

Your sugar rush is a common-enough phenomenon and may not
mean much. I believe you will find it doesn't happen if
you combine your sugar intake with some protein - this
suppresses the serotonin release and would perhaps be a
way of testing to see if that is what is happening. See
this article:

news.bbc.co.uk3522903.stmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

PS: What do you think about St. John's Wort as a
treatment in my case?

Who knows? But beware: St John's Wort is extremely dangerous
(can be fatal) when used in conjunction with anything
containing steroids (such as some anti-inflammatory
medicines).
--
Martin Thompson [email hidden] (use "martin" not
"bin"😉 London, UK Home Page: tucana.demon.co.uktucana.demon.co.ukOpen ↗
Web Shop: buy.attucanaOpen ↗ Mobile Phone Ring Tones:
ringamoby.comringamoby.comOpen ↗

"Everything I do and say with anyone makes a difference."
Gita Bellin

Chad,

check out www.iherb.com

I have only heard good stuff about their products. Used to
take an anti-depressant, and went through hell on them and
still am trying to quit, so I am not supporting that idea.

Fish - Sunlight - Meditation - Positive Thinking