MI vs. Pancreatitis:

sammy D. said:

I've heard that Pancreatitis and heart attack carry the
same side effects, which make it difficult to determine a
diagnosis. Is this true?

No.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone out there know?

Yes.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

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My father has had both.

I'll leave it to Dr. Chung and other professionals to
comment, but my impression is:

- MI normally manifests with pressure, pain, etc. in the
chest, arms, etc. ... that sometimes mimic indigestion
- pancreatitis normally manifests as pain centered in the
upper abdomin (not chest pain), and is sometimes
accompanied by fever ... possibly even abdominal
distention (bloating)
- MI normally results in increase in serum cardiac enzymes
- pancreatitis normally results in increase in serum amylase

Larry

sammy D. said:

I've heard that Pancreatitis and heart attack carry the
same side effects, which make it difficult to determine a
diagnosis. Is this true? Does anyone out there know?

Larry said:

My father has had both.

I'll leave it to Dr. Chung and other professionals to
comment

................

Well I, for one, was not at all impressed with Dr. Chung's
comments on this question. His two-word response (while
accurate) served only to demean sammy D., the entire
readership of this newsgroup, and Chung himself.

.................

Quoted message said:

but my impression is:

- MI normally manifests with pressure, pain, etc. in the
chest, arms, etc. ... that sometimes mimic indigestion
- pancreatitis normally manifests as pain centered in the
upper abdomin (not chest pain), and is sometimes
accompanied by fever ... possibly even abdominal
distention (bloating)
- MI normally results in increase in serum cardiac enzymes
- pancreatitis normally results in increase in serum
amylase

....................

Larry, your very appropriate and "spot-on" answer allows
for some overlap while at the same time pointing out some
very important differences with respect to the physical and
laboratory manifestations of these two entities. You have
in a few words captured the essence of this issue. Very
well done.

Stephen M. Nagler, M.D.

On 28 Mar 2004 18:58:12 GMT, [email hidden] (sammy D.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- pancreatitis normally manifests as pain centered in the
upper abdomin

Quoted message said:

(not chest pain), and is sometimes accompanied by fever
... possibly even abdominal distention (bloating)
- MI normally results in increase in serum cardiac
enzymes
- pancreatitis normally results in

Quoted message said:

increase in serum amylase

Thank you so much for your response.

.................

Just to clarify - it was Larry's response, an excellent one.

Regarding the "so called professionals that are so ugly to
you," I am very sorry you have had that experience. But
please do remember that health care is a *service* industry.
If a doctor treats you unkindly, considering firing that
doctor and getting somebody who will treat you competently
*and* civilly. They're out there!

Best wishes to you, sammy.

Stephen M. Nagler, M.D.

sammy D. said:

Quoted message said:

- pancreatitis normally manifests as pain centered in the
upper abdomin

Quoted message said:

(not chest pain), and is sometimes accompanied by fever
... possibly even abdominal distention (bloating)
- MI normally results in increase in serum cardiac
enzymes
- pancreatitis normally results in

Quoted message said:

increase in serum amylase

Thank you so much for your response. I have a
regurgitating Mitral Valve Prolapse as well as what
they call an idiopathic Chronic Pancreatitis. I
have gone to the doctor with Chest pain, and they
run all these test, and then come back with a malox
cocktail and tell me it's not my heart, but my
pancreatitis. I was told by one doctor that the
symptoms of Pancreatitis Mimics that of a heart
attack, but then another doctor told me that was
incorrect, so i really didn't know what was the
truth.

Typically the pain from pancreatitis is more back/abdominal
pain. However, YMMV.

Quoted message said:

I've been in so much with pancreatitis over the years
that i've just go so when it flair up i'll just starve
myself for 24 hours from solids, and clear liquids the
next 24-hours.

Then it sounds like you know exactly what your pancreatitis
pains feel like. Folks with mitral valve prolapse (MVP) can
sometime have associated chest pain. Perhaps this is what
your are having.

Quoted message said:

It's however becoming more difficult to do that now since
i now am hypoglycemic and mal-absorbed. It's so stressfull
dealing with it, especially when you go to the hospital
and the so called professionals are so ugly to you, and
it's obvious that they don't won't to be there, except for
a pay check, it only make me feel so much worse.

Would suggest you seek out a cardiologist. It sounds like
you have been visiting emergency room doctors for your
chest pain.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
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On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:21:46 GMT, Stephen Nagler <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If a doctor treats you unkindly, considering firing that
doctor and getting somebody who will treat you competently
*and* civilly. They're out there!

Best wishes to you, sammy.

Stephen M. Nagler, M.D.

This is not one of the civil ones, IME. I have not
experienced his competence, but others have that find it
lacking. Nagler is also not a cardiologist but a former
colo-rectal surgeon and tinnitus "treater" for lack of a
better term.

Terri

pub219.ezboard.combtinnitusactivismandsupportOpen ↗

Hello Dr. Nagler.

Thanks for the compliment! Sometimes I think I missed my
calling :-).

When you are looking after your Dad who is 82 and has been
through a lot (including an MI during bypass surgery that
left him in cardiogenic shock ... which he ended up
surviving some 11 years ago), you want to be sure he's
getting the right care. So you do a lot of research on
everything. Some people in the ICU actually asked me if I
was a doctor :-).

Although I realize the answer I gave here was very
simplified and only scratched the surface.

Larry

Stephen Nagler said:

Larry said:

My father has had both.

I'll leave it to Dr. Chung and other professionals
to comment

................

Well I, for one, was not at all impressed with Dr. Chung's
comments on this question. His two-word response (while
accurate) served only to demean sammy D., the entire
readership of this newsgroup, and Chung himself.

.................

Quoted message said:

but my impression is:

- MI normally manifests with pressure, pain, etc. in the
chest, arms, etc. ... that sometimes mimic indigestion
- pancreatitis normally manifests as pain centered in the
upper abdomin (not chest pain), and is sometimes
accompanied by fever ... possibly even abdominal
distention (bloating)
- MI normally results in increase in serum cardiac enzymes
- pancreatitis normally results in increase in serum
amylase

....................

Larry, your very appropriate and "spot-on" answer allows
for some overlap while at the same time pointing out some
very important differences with respect to the physical
and laboratory manifestations of these two entities. You
have in a few words captured the essence of this issue.
Very well done.

Stephen M. Nagler, M.D.

Larry said:

Hello Dr. Nagler.

Thanks for the compliment! Sometimes I think I missed my
calling :-).

..................

Maybe you did! :-)

.....................

Quoted message said:

When you are looking after your Dad who is 82 and has been
through a lot (including an MI during bypass surgery that
left him in cardiogenic shock ... which he ended up
surviving some 11 years ago), you want to be sure he's
getting the right care. So you do a lot of research on
everything. Some people in the ICU actually asked me if I
was a doctor :-).

.....................

Well, from what you have just described directly above, I'd
say that your Dad's recovery likely had as much to do with
strength of character (his and yours) as it did with good
doctoring.

....................

Quoted message said:

Although I realize the answer I gave here was very
simplified and only scratched the surface.

....................

I actually thought the answer was excellent on many levels.
"Elegant in its simplicity" you might say. You sensed sammy
D.'s concerns and addressed them directly with good sense
and compassion. There are many - regardless of calling - who
could learn from you.

smn

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 05:25:50 GMT, Stephen Nagler <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I actually thought the answer was excellent on many levels.
"Elegant in its simplicity" you might say. You sensed sammy
D.'s concerns and addressed them directly with good sense
and compassion. There are many - regardless of calling -
who could learn from you.

smn

Like you, perhaps?

People interested in what I mean, should read Nagler's
infamous "What I Intend to tell the Judge" post on
alt.support.tinnitus regarding his threat to contact a judge
to try to block a person's disability case. He has deleted
his original post from the archives, but it has been
preserved through the quotes of other posts.

Here is one of the links in which it is preserved in
its entirety:

ps?q=%22what+I+intend+to+tell+the+judge%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&newwindow=1&safe=off&selm=nvQda.996%24M7.126417%40twister-
.tampabay.rr.com&rnum=8

Terri

pub219.ezboard.combtinnitusactivismandsupportOpen ↗

--------------8D5E581C7BBF5942E6BBECCC
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Quoted message said:

Stephen Nagler said:

I actually thought the answer was excellent on many
levels. "Elegant in its simplicity" you might say. You
sensed sammy D.'s concerns and addressed them directly
with good sense and compassion. There are many -
regardless of calling - who could learn from you.

smn

Like you, perhaps?

People interested in what I mean, should read Nagler's
infamous "What I Intend to tell the Judge" post on
alt.support.tinnitus regarding his threat to contact a
judge to try to block a person's disability case. He has
deleted his original post from the archives, but it has
been preserved through the quotes of other posts.

Here is one of the links in which it is preserved in its
entirety:

?q=%22what+I+intend+to+tell+the+judge%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&newwindow=1&safe=off&selm=nvQda.996%24M7.126417%40twist-
er.tampabay.rr.com&rnum=8

Terri

It seems to me that anger and vindictiveness has been eating
his soul for a long time.

He remains in my prayers to God, in Christ's name.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.comOpen ↗

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--------------8D5E581C7BBF5942E6BBECCC
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
[email hidden] wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 05:25:50 GMT, Stephen Nagler
<[email hidden]>
<br>wrote:
<p>>I actually thought the answer was excellent on many levels. "Elegant
<br>>in its simplicity" you might say. You sensed sammy D.'s concerns
and
<br>>addressed them directly with good sense and compassion. There
are
<br>>many - regardless of calling - who could learn from you.
<br>>
<br>>smn
<p>Like you, perhaps?
<p>People interested in what I mean, should read Nagler's infamous "What
<br>I Intend to tell the Judge" post on alt.support.tinnitus regarding
his
<br>threat to contact a judge to try to block a person's disability case.
<br>He has deleted his original post from the archives, but it has been
<br>preserved through the quotes of other posts.
<p>Here is one of the links in which it is preserved in its entirety:
<p><a href="groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗">groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗</a>
<p>Terri</blockquote>
It seems to me that anger and vindictiveness has been eating his soul for
a long time.
<p>He remains in my prayers to God, in Christ's name.
<br>
<p>Servant to the humblest person in the universe,
<p>Andrew
<p>--
<br>Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
<br>Board-Certified Cardiologist
<br><A HREF="heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.comOpen ↗">heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.comOpen ↗</A>
<p>**
<br>Who is the humblest person in the universe?
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<p>What is all this about?
<br><A HREF="makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.comOpen ↗">makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.comOpen ↗</A>
<p>Is this spam?
<br><A HREF="makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.comOpen ↗">makeashorterlink.commakeashorterlink.comOpen ↗</A>
<br> </html>

--------------8D5E581C7BBF5942E6BBECCC--

Hello Andrew,

I have noticed a tendency in your online correspondence like
the example here -

Quoted message said:

It seems to me that anger and vindictiveness has been
eating his soul for a long time.

It is an unnecessary and provocative statement which can
only serve to further someone elses discomfort. Why did you
feel the need to comment further? I feel you lack
sensitivity and compassion in these unwise actions.

May you meet the dharma soon my friend.

Respectfully,

Mozz x

Hi Mozz,

Mozz said:

Hello Andrew,

I have noticed a tendency in your online correspondence
like the example here -

Quoted message said:

It seems to me that anger and vindictiveness has been
eating his soul for a long time.

It is an unnecessary and provocative statement which can
only serve to further someone elses discomfort.

That would be your opinion, Mozz.

It remains my choice to be truthful.

Quoted message said:

Why did you feel the need to comment further?

It remains my choice to continue to pray on Stephen's
behalf.

Quoted message said:

I feel you lack sensitivity and compassion in these unwise
actions.

Would suggest you make up your mind as to why you dislike my
"actions."

Quoted message said:

May you meet the dharma soon my friend.

May you accept Christ as your personal Lord and
Savior, someday.

Try it, you might like it.

You remain in my prayers, Mozz, in Christ's name.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
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Board-Certified Cardiologist
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MD/PhD said:

Quoted message said:

Why did you feel the need to comment further?

It remains my choice to continue to pray on Stephen's
behalf.

...............

That is true. And - as I have said several times - I
sincerely appreciate it.

But I have also pleaded with you to stop *talking* about it,
which - as I have also said several times - I find for
personal reasons to be offensive.

Now, Andrew, why would you use your free will to do
something that another member of this newsgroup has told you
unequivocally he finds to be offensive?

smn

Quoted message said:

Subject: MI vs. Pancreatitis:
From:

Ann Surg. 1993 Apr;217(4):369-74. Related Articles, Links

Isovolemic hemodilution with dextran 60 as treatment of
pancreatic ischemia in acute pancreatitis. Clinical
practicability of an experimental concept.

Klar E, Foitzik T, Buhr H, Messmer K, Herfarth C.

Department of General Surgery, University of
Heidelberg, Germany.

OBJECTIVE: This phase-I study transferred the concept of
isovolemic hemodilution, which has been proven beneficial in
the treatment of experimental acute pancreatitis to the
patient. SUMMARY BACKGROUND DATA: Pancreatic ischemia
represents one main mechanism in the pathogenesis of
necrotizing pancreatitis. Isovolemic hemodilution with
dextran 60 has been shown experimentally to limit the
progression of pancreatic necrosis by improving pancreatic
microcirculation. METHODS: Thirteen patients with clinically
severe nonbiliary pancreatitis and CT-classification E
according to Balthazar were enrolled. Exclusion criteria
were anemia, coronary heart disease, chronic obstructive
pulmonary disease, coagulopathies, and secondary referral.
The volume of blood to be exchanged for dextran 60 was
calculated from a nomogram based on body surface. Isovolemic
hemodilution aimed at a hematocrit of 30%. Independent from
the exchange procedure conventional fluid resuscitation was
performed to adjust the central venous pressure at 6 +/- 2
mm Hg. RESULTS: Whole blood (750-1,700
mL) was exchanged for dextran 60 during 45 to 70 minutes.
No adverse effect was encountered; central
hemodynamics were not affected. Considering a mean
Ranson score of 5, mortality was low (7.7%).
Progression of pancreatic necrosis was registered in
only two patients subsequently undergoing surgical
treatment (15%). CONCLUSIONS: Isovolemic hemodilution
is practicable in patients. A randomized trial has to
prove whether isovolemic hemodilution can
substantially alter the course of acute pancreatitis
as anticipated from animal studies.

PMID: 7682053 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

------------------------------------------------------------
--------------
------

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nice summary!

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On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:32:54 GMT, Stephen Nagler <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 13:00:14 -0500, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,

MD/PhD said:

Quoted message said:

Why did you feel the need to comment further?

It remains my choice to continue to pray on
Stephen's behalf.

...............

That is true. And - as I have said several times - I
sincerely appreciate it.

But I have also pleaded with you to stop *talking* about
it, which - as I have also said several times - I find for
personal reasons to be offensive.

Now, Andrew, why would you use your free will to do
something that another member of this newsgroup has told
you unequivocally he finds to be offensive?

smn

People have asked you for years to stop doing things they
found offensive, Stephen, but you continued to do insist on
doing it. Why are you complaining about someone doing
something nice for you?

Terri

pub219.ezboard.combtinnitusactivismandsupportOpen ↗

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 16:12:41 GMT, Stephen Nagler <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Well I, for one, was not at all impressed with Dr. Chung's
comments on this question. His two-word response (while
accurate) served only to demean sammy D., the entire
readership of this newsgroup, and Chung himself.

No one could demean the medical arts any more than you do,
Nagler, with this obsessive TROLLING of Usenet like you do
day after day after day........

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap960222.htmlOpen ↗ Lift well,
Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

Home said:

Stephen Nagler said:

Well I, for one, was not at all impressed with Dr.
Chung's comments on this question. His two-word response
(while accurate) served only to demean sammy D., the
entire readership of this newsgroup, and Chung himself.

No one could demean the medical arts any more than you do,
Nagler, with this obsessive TROLLING of Usenet like you do
day after day after day........

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap960222.htmlOpen ↗ Lift well,
Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

He is an embarassment. But we should still love him and
pray for him.

May he accept Christ as his personal Lord and Savior just as
the apostle Paul was able to do.

Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

Andrew

--
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Board-Certified Cardiologist
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No one could demean the medical arts any more than you
do, Nagler, with this obsessive TROLLING of Usenet like
you do day after day after day........

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:51:53 -0400, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung,

MD/PhD said:

He is an embarassment.

Nagler passed embarrassing eons ago. He's an obsessive who
reminds all of us why so many doctors get such well deserved
raps against them.

He doesn't think his [censored] stinks and to TROLL Usenet like
some kind of freak, speaking ethics out one side of his
mouth and [censored] out the other, that's not embarrassing,. that
borders on psychotic.

Exactly what purpose does he perform on a cardiology Usenet
group? None except to inflict his overblown ego and
interrupt the passing of information that could either be
life saving or life enhancing.

What kind of "Doctor" does that? Only one who pledged an
Hypocritic Oath, not a Hippocratic Oath of Medical Ethics
that true physicians are compelled to follow.

Quoted message said:

But we should still love him and pray for him.

Frankly, I am getting tired of loving and praying for people
like Nagler, Pastorio and so many more real life folks who
share a common cruelty to fellow man. I don't flinch at all
when I say that, am not ashamed to speak the truth.

Usenet is a reflection of the absurdity of man albeit only a
pale one in comparison.

Quoted message said:

May he accept Christ as his personal Lord and Savior just
as the apostle Paul was able to do.

I suppose if Paul turned, even the fools I have to deal
with can to.

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap960222.htmlOpen ↗ Lift well,
Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.