DF Respect Earned :)

Gerald,

Cool report. Sounds like the group was treating you pretty well. I might suggest that in the future,
you merely drop to the back of the paceline and stay out of rotations that way instead of riding
parallel to the group. It's safer for everyone, including you.

Don't be ashamed to benefit from the draft of the paceline. If the group is really working well, you
can offer to go to the front and pull for a while, but most riders of uprights will wish not to deal
with a bent anywhere but at the back of the line. Of course, if you are asked to, then take a pull,
but that is not likely to happen. If the group fractures up, then move up to the front pod and be
the caboose. After shamlessly sucking wheels for hours, it is a good idea to help out with flat
tires or bailouts, or any way you can think of to show your appreciation to the group.

Cheers, Derek

"Gerald Muffoletto Louisiana" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Last Saturday, I rode with the club of an easy 1200 feet of climb for a 50 mile preparation ride.
I am preparing for my second century of the year. At the 15 mile mark, a normally fast rider told
me that if I keep riding like I have been, I would have to ride with Ralph. Now Ralph is a very
good and fast rider who enjoys going fast uphill and slow down hill.

I also heard the question "Why are you going so fast?" directed to the President of the Baton
Rouge Bike Club. His answer was "I have to keep up with Muf". My nickname is Muf because most
people cannot say Muffoletto while riding hard. We were only going 17 M.P.H. 🙂 into the wind on
the flats and 20-23 M.P.H. down wind. I was pushing because for years the faster club members
would push and drop me after 10 miles. What a great feeling giving them a taste of their own
speed. Some riders were asking what kind of gears I had. I told them "What ever comes with the
bike. Maybe you know." 🙂

I rode parallel to the President of the club for the 50 miles ride to show them that I could; they
were in a pace line. I slowed down about mile 45 to talk with some of the riders in the pace line
just to test their conditioning. When we finally got to our cars, I had averaged
17. M.P.H. for the 50 miles. The other riders were a bit tired. We must have averaged 16 M.P.H.
for the last 10 miles.

Normally I ride 14 M.P.H. for 50 miles on my 1999 Vision R44. The money that I spent on my Aero
and the Angletech tailbox was worth every penny!

First, congrats on a great ride, Gerald. What were you riding? (and don't say, "a recumbent!"😉

derek said:

Cool report. Sounds like the group was treating you pretty well. I might suggest that in the
future, you merely drop to the back of the paceline and stay out of rotations that way instead of
riding parallel to the group. It's safer for everyone, including you.

Whether or not to just ride in back depends on the bike. I know that they don't mind riding behind
my faired V-Rex. In fact, several DF riders in my club prefer it! I guess they've learned that the
draft behind the fairing is pretty darned good, even if it's a bit on the short side. For lower
bikes, though, Derek is right. With the Baron I only go to the front to tease the lead tandems. When
at the back, I tend to allow extra room, for two reasons. 1) more buffer for when they encounter a
climb and slough off speed faster than I do, and 2) I can honestly claim I'm not benefitting from
sucking their wheels.

You (Gerald) definitely shouldn't make a practice of riding alongside the leaders if they're already
two abreast. If you're fast, they may respect your speed, but keeping up is only part of the
equation. They respect you more if you also follow a few rules. Ride a straight line, maintain
constant speed, keep in formation, always signal everything.
--

John Foltz --- O _ Baron --- _O _ V-Rex 24/63 --- _\\/\-%)
_________(_)`=()___________________(_)= (_)_____

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

First, congrats on a great ride, Gerald. What were you riding? (and don't say, "a recumbent!"😉

If you read the fine print: "...The money that I spent on my Aero and the Angletech tailbox was
worth every penny!"

Quoted message said:

Whether or not to just ride in back depends on the bike.

Actually, the best place is in front. The paceline gets some aero benefit. (This may not be the case
with a tailbox). The DF leaders behind you can peel off as needed. If you get tired or are slowed by
a hill, you can peel off too.

I've pulled my share when with a pace line. The only problems I encounter are downhills. I have to
coast and usually faster than the paceline is moving. This means I need to pull out of the line if I
am anywhere off the front. (BTW, it is considered bad form to coast past the pace leader.)

Quoted message said:

You (Gerald) definitely shouldn't make a practice of riding alongside the leaders if they're
already two abreast

I think 'Muf' has established a good rapport with the paceline members Sounds like he is following
the rules as they apply to recumbents in his paceline.

The only problems I have with pacelines are in 'events' where the pacelines are made up on the fly
with folks that usually don't know what they are doing.
--
Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Derek, What you say below has been my experience with DF pacelines also. Most don't mind a recumbent
riding last position and dropping back for rotation tail to tuck in. But usually they don't want
recumbent inside paceline, I think for good reasons: (1) they don't know you or your skills,
(2) they may not get much of a draft from you, (3) they may be practicing team work. You might ask
if they would like you to help pull. Definitely don't ride parallel to paceline as this
interferes with their rotation. If paceline is too slow for you, just pass them and go on your
way. Often this will energize them to catch and destroy you. Most DF paceline riders become
friendly after a pass-repass exchange, as respect is gained. Pacelines on hills are particularly
tricky if you mix bikes with significantly different aerodynamics and speed characteristics. DFs
and bents are not a good mix on hilly pacelines. DFs have told me they get a good draft off my
Corsa, which is 26x26 and high for a bent. Nevertheless, since my Corsa is much faster downhill
than a DF, I shy away from DF pacelines on steep hills. Previous to Corsa I had a V2. I did not
find a lwb bent as good in a bent or DF paceline. On lwb bent, front wheel keeps you farther
away from rider ahead and, more importantly, when looking at back of rider, gauging location of
front wheel is harder. ~~~al.kubeluis..md.usa.earth.sun.milkyway.virgo.universe..corsa~~~

"derek" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gerald,

Cool report. Sounds like the group was treating you pretty well. I might suggest that in the
future, you merely drop to the back of the paceline

and

Quoted message said:

stay out of rotations that way instead of riding parallel to the group.

It's

Quoted message said:

safer for everyone, including you.

Don't be ashamed to benefit from the draft of the paceline. If the group

is

Quoted message said:

really working well, you can offer to go to the front and pull for a

while,

Quoted message said:

but most riders of uprights will wish not to deal with a bent anywhere but at the back of the
line. Of course, if you are asked to, then take a pull, but that is not likely to happen. If the
group fractures up, then move up to the front pod and be the caboose. After shamlessly sucking
wheels for hours, it is a good idea to help out with flat tires or bailouts, or any

way

Quoted message said:

you can think of to show your appreciation to the group.

Cheers, Derek

"Gerald Muffoletto Louisiana" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Last Saturday, I rode with the club of an easy 1200 feet of climb for a 50 mile preparation
ride. I am preparing for my second century of the year. At the 15 mile mark, a normally fast
rider told me that if I keep riding like I have been, I would have to ride with Ralph. Now Ralph
is a very good and fast rider who enjoys going fast uphill and slow down hill.

I also heard the question "Why are you going so fast?" directed to the President of the Baton
Rouge Bike Club. His answer was "I have to keep up with Muf". My nickname is Muf because most
people cannot say Muffoletto while riding hard. We were only going 17 M.P.H. 🙂 into the wind on
the flats and 20-23 M.P.H. down wind. I was pushing because for years the faster club members
would push and drop me after 10 miles. What a great feeling giving them a taste of their own
speed. Some riders were asking what kind of gears I had. I told them "What ever comes with the
bike. Maybe you know." 🙂

I rode parallel to the President of the club for the 50 miles ride to show them that I could;
they were in a pace line. I slowed down about mile 45 to talk with some of the riders in the
pace line just to test their conditioning. When we finally got to our cars, I had averaged
17. M.P.H. for the 50 miles. The other riders were a bit tired. We must have averaged 16 M.P.H.
for the last 10 miles.

Normally I ride 14 M.P.H. for 50 miles on my 1999 Vision R44. The money that I spent on my Aero
and the Angletech tailbox was worth every penny!

Cletus D. Lee <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

First, congrats on a great ride, Gerald. What were you riding? (and don't say, "a recumbent!"😉

If you read the fine print: "...The money that I spent on my Aero and the Angletech tailbox was
worth every penny!"

As Popeye might say, "how embarraskin!" I reread that post several times trying to find where Gerald
might have made a reference; missed it every time. I can only guess that my mind dismissed it as
part of the sig file. Yes, it sounds like he's established himself in the group, so I don't think he
was doing anything bone-headed to make the others uncomfortable. It never hurts to go over the
rules, though, since he admits he knows them but couldn't keep up with them before. The implication
being that he hasn't done much pacelining with them, beyond the warmup. An Aero with a tail bag
would not be a good draft, but it would be enough to justify him taking his turn along with
everybody else. They could rotate the rider behind him, (like you said) since that person would only
be getting a half a draft.

In article <[email hidden]>, "Al says...

Quoted message said:

Derek, What you say below has been my experience with DF pacelines also.

Quoted message said:

Most don't mind a recumbent riding last position and dropping back for rotation tail to tuck
in. But usually they don't want recumbent inside paceline, I think for good reasons: (1) they
don't know you or your skills,
(2) they may not get much of a draft from you, (3) they may be practicing team work. You might ask
if they would like you to help pull.

My experience with pacelines in club rides has been that I may as well start off at the back,
because if I get in the middle, one by one everyone speeds up to pass me. At lteast this allows me
do enjoy drafting all day without feeling guilty.

The view doesn't seem to change much though.....

Steve Christensen Midland, MI

John Foltz <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

You (Gerald) definitely shouldn't make a practice of riding alongside the leaders if they're
already two abreast. If you're fast, they may respect your speed, but keeping up is only part of
the equation. They respect you more if you also follow a few rules. Ride a straight line, maintain
constant speed, keep in formation, always signal everything.

SUBJECT: DF Respect Earned Last Saturday, I rode with the club of an easy 1200 feet of climb for a
50 mile preparation ride. I am preparing for my second century of the year. At the 15 mile mark, a
normally fast rider told me that if I keep riding like I have been, I would have to ride with Ralph.
Now Ralph is a very good and fast rider who enjoys going fast uphill and slow down hill.

I also heard the question "Why are you going so fast?" directed to the President of the Baton
Rouge Bike Club. His answer was "I have to keep up with Muf". My nickname is Muf because most
people cannot say Muffoletto while riding hard. We were only going 17 M.P.H. 🙂 into the wind on
the flats and 20-23 M.P.H. down wind. I was pushing because for years the faster club members
would push and drop me after 10 miles. What a great feeling giving them a taste of their own
speed. Some riders were asking what kind of gears I had. I told them "What ever comes with the
bike. Maybe you know." 🙂

I rode parallel to the President of the club for the 50 miles ride to show them that I could; they
were in a pace line. I slowed down about mile 45 to talk with some of the riders in the pace line
just to test their conditioning. When we finally got to our cars, I had averaged
17. M.P.H. for the 50 miles. The other riders were a bit tired. We must have averaged 16 M.P.H. for
the last 10 miles.

Normally I ride 14 M.P.H. for 50 miles on my 1999 Vision R44. The money that I spent on my Aero and
the Angletech tailbox was worth every penny!

response: When I was 40, I could not see why anyone would want to ride 100 miles on a DF. As I
got stronger, I finally rode my first century. I improved to the point of riding with several
century riders.

At 50, I rode pacelines with the slow riders on my Trek DF. Our group trained for the "Hotter Than
Hell" in Texas. At that time, I could keep an 18 M.P.H. in the pace line for 30 miles after months
of training. Now that was work!

To have more fun and ride without all the pain of a DF, I bought a Vision R44. At first, I was slow.
After 2000 miles I was still slow
(18.8 M.P.H. average for a century). I always rode alone because other slow riders would not ride
centuries. When I did ride with the slow group, they would drop me after 20 miles - not in a
pace line but in a group. I guess they wanted to get off the bikes due to the pain and
hunger. I kept telling them that I am out for the pleasure of riding and not speed. If I were
out for speed, I would get a fast recumbent. They just gave me the "sure their is a fast
recumbent" face.

I decided that maybe they were correct. My Recumbent is slow no matter what I did. Being an
engineer, I gathered facts. The first fact was that a bike that weighs 30 lbs. cannot go as fast as
a 20 lbs. bike. Since we ride hills, I needed a light bike. The second fact was wind resistance is
less on a recumbent than a DF but I spend more time going uphill than down. On faith that MR. Pinto
would bring his Aerocycle knowledge to the Aero, I bought the Aero.

I have ridden 7 centuries on the Aero since November but alone. I pass by the club riders and wave.
Sometimes I stop and talk if I have enough sun light left to get back to my car before dark. During
my dormant period (Jan.-March, temp hotter than 89, rain), I ride with the club. The club members
say that they have had a "Muf sighting" when I pass them going the other way. Now that I am riding
with the club, I wanted to try and get more people riding recumbents and possibly centuries where I
could keep the pace. If no one gets an Aero, I think that I will be doing a lot of parallel riding.

Usually when the club starts a ride, no one can make up their minds to start riding and so, I start.
I ride back to the group after a group forms. The others see me start and realize that they are
late. I used to ride along side of the inexperienced riders, trying to help them with hills and
spinning. We only had experienced riders. But with my Aero, I caught the leader of the club, he was
in front, and no pace line had formed. I got up to 16, and asked questions about the war, his wife,
... Before I knew it, I was going 20, the leader was going 20, and a single pace line had formed
behind the leader. That was when someone ask why he was going so fast. When someone would try and
use my draft, they just could not seem to get any benefit. They would fall back to the paceline.
When a car comes from behind, I would pass the leader so that he could hold a steady pace and the
car would pass. I would then drop back to the parallel position and keep talking. Cars have this
habit of passing when I am in the middle of a thought.

The above explains why I rode in parallel with the leader.

Quoted message said:

My experience with pacelines in club rides has been that I may as well start off at the back,
because if I get in the middle, one by one everyone speeds up to pass me. At lteast this allows me
do enjoy drafting all day without feeling guilty.

The view doesn't seem to change much though.....

Steve Christensen Midland, MI

I had my first experience with mixing my faired Stratus into a DF pacline this past Sunday. I've
only been riding bents since December, so all this is pretty new to me.

What you say is true, I just fell into a postion in the group and one by one I was passed, even by
the slower rider. Kind of funny, they kept me pinned in so I couldn't get around, it seemed almost
planned. Then we got into the small rollers, much smaller than what I am used to riding, and I
passed the majority of the slow group that had been dropped by the faster riders. I easily caught up
with the faster guys and initially they seemed like they were blocking me again. But then I saw my
opening and pushed through the group of 5 and beat them all to the top. They called for a rest and
regroup and one fellow said to me, "I was always told those bikes were slow on hills" and that I was
pretty tough. All I could say was "what hills?", because on my home turf I get passed all the time
on my DF or bent. They were just a bunch of flatlanders, what satisfaction is there in beating them
over little bumps :-)

A while later I led the paceline into the the headwind and was again complemented. If they tried to
get around me, they couldn't and they were right on my tail. After that, I was invited to come back
and ride with that group anytime.

With my regular club, which doesn't usually do pacelines, I have twice had the smaller riders tuck
in close behind me and claim to get a lot of benefit from me with my fairing. Last time out with
them the guy behind me said our trip on that particular stretch was a personal best for him.

but I admit if I am not first or last, I am uncomfortable. in addition to not being able to see the
front wheel, I also can't hold as true a line on the bent as I can on the DF. With only 600 miles I
am getting better. I have ordered the Evo Bars for the bike, hoping that will help, but I just can't
keep it straight.

MikeE