Heart disease study

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

drlam.comdrlam.comOpen ↗ Mathias Rath and colleague conducted
a yearlong study to determine the effect of a defined
nutritional supplementation program on the natural
progression of coronary artery disease. He gave 55
patients with various stages of coronary artery disease,
aged 44-67, a daily nutritional supplementation program
including 2,700 mg of vitamin C, vitamin B

complex,

Quoted message said:

600 IU of vitamin E (d-alpha-tocopherol), 450 mg of L-
proline, 450 mg of L-lysine, 390 mcg of folic acid, 30 mg
of coenzyme Q-10, and 450 mg of citrus bioflavinoids.
Changes in the progression of coronary artery
calcification before and during the program were
determined by Ultrafast Computerized Tomography. Before
the intervention, the natural progression rate of the
coronary artery calcification averaged 44% per year.
However, during the year of treatment, the progression of
coronary artery calcification decreased by an average of
15%. In a subgroup of patients

with

Quoted message said:

early stages of coronary artery disease, treatment
resulted in a statistically significant decrease, with no
further progression of

coronary

Quoted message said:

calcification. In individual cases, reversal and complete
disappearance of previously existing coronary
calcification were documented. This landmark study,
published in the Journal of Applied Nutrition (1996,
48:3), showed that coronary artery disease could be
effectively prevented and treated by natural means. In
patients with early coronary calcification, progression
was halted. In individual cases with small-calcified
deposits, nutritional supplement intervention led to the
complete disappearance of the deposits Anth

Can you see any problems with this trial, Anth? Any
questions you might like to ask concerning it?

Peter Moran

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

drlam.comdrlam.comOpen ↗ Mathias Rath and colleague
conducted a yearlong study to determine the effect of a
defined nutritional supplementation program on the
natural progression of coronary artery disease. He gave
55 patients with various stages of coronary artery
disease, aged 44-67, a daily nutritional supplementation
program including 2,700 mg of vitamin C, vitamin B

complex,

Quoted message said:

600 IU of vitamin E (d-alpha-tocopherol), 450 mg of L-
proline, 450 mg of L-lysine, 390 mcg of folic acid, 30
mg of coenzyme Q-10, and 450 mg of citrus bioflavinoids.
Changes in the progression of coronary artery
calcification before and during the program were
determined by Ultrafast Computerized Tomography. Before
the intervention, the natural

progression

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rate of the coronary artery calcification averaged 44%
per year.

However,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

during the year of treatment, the progression of
coronary artery calcification decreased by an average of
15%. In a subgroup of patients

with

Quoted message said:

early stages of coronary artery disease, treatment
resulted in a statistically significant decrease, with
no further progression of

coronary

Quoted message said:

calcification. In individual cases, reversal and
complete disappearance

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

previously existing coronary calcification were
documented. This

landmark

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

study, published in the Journal of Applied Nutrition
(1996, 48:3),

showed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that coronary artery disease could be effectively
prevented and treated

by

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

natural means. In patients with early coronary
calcification,

progression

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was halted. In individual cases with small-calcified
deposits,

nutritional

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

supplement intervention led to the complete
disappearance of the

deposits

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anth

Can you see any problems with this trial, Anth? Any
questions you might like to ask concerning it?

Peter Moran

Yep I can't see any mortality data or long term follow up,
and the control was a cross over study which meant the
person were their own controls. Questions I would ask are
how did the deposits and plaques disappear and halt if the
treatment had no effect? Anth.

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:405f5b8f$0$32758$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
01.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

drlam.comdrlam.comOpen ↗ Mathias Rath and colleague
conducted a yearlong study to determine the effect of
a defined nutritional supplementation program on the
natural progression of coronary artery disease. He
gave 55 patients with

various

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stages of coronary artery disease, aged 44-67, a daily
nutritional supplementation program including 2,700 mg
of vitamin C, vitamin B

complex,

Quoted message said:

600 IU of vitamin E (d-alpha-tocopherol), 450 mg of
L-proline, 450 mg

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

L-lysine, 390 mcg of folic acid, 30 mg of coenzyme Q-
10, and 450 mg of citrus bioflavinoids. Changes in the
progression of coronary artery calcification before
and during the program were determined by

Ultrafast

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Computerized Tomography. Before the intervention, the
natural

progression

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rate of the coronary artery calcification averaged 44%
per year.

However,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

during the year of treatment, the progression of
coronary artery calcification decreased by an average
of 15%. In a subgroup of

patients

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with

Quoted message said:

early stages of coronary artery disease, treatment
resulted in a statistically significant decrease, with
no further progression of

coronary

Quoted message said:

calcification. In individual cases, reversal and
complete

disappearance

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

previously existing coronary calcification were
documented. This

landmark

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

study, published in the Journal of Applied Nutrition
(1996, 48:3),

showed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that coronary artery disease could be effectively
prevented and

treated

Quoted message said:

by

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

natural means. In patients with early coronary
calcification,

progression

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was halted. In individual cases with small-calcified
deposits,

nutritional

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

supplement intervention led to the complete
disappearance of the

deposits

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anth

Can you see any problems with this trial, Anth? Any
questions you

might

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

like to ask concerning it?

Peter Moran

Yep I can't see any mortality data or long term follow up,
and the control was a cross over study which meant the
person were their own controls. Questions I would ask are
how did the deposits and plaques disappear and halt if the
treatment had no effect?

Other good questions pertain to the rate issues. Just what
were they measuiring, and what was the baseline, which one
needs to determine a rate.

It is, AFAIAC, a bogus study.

I'm just looking at the study summary now (I don't have a
copy of the whole study). drrathresearch.orgcliOpen ↗
nical_studies/condition_atherosclerosis.html Well I can say
it's unblinded, 91%, male 9% female should be 50:50 ? There
are no blinding/randomisation/control group, which I believe
was chosen this way to be more ethical so each person got
the therapy. He did measure the rate at which the calcified
deposits were increasing for the first 12 months, then after
12 months initiated the therapy, but there was no placebo
group to validate what happens to this progression in non-
treated patients after 12 months. Also these people might
have 'got well' because they got more healthy, I don't know
if there's any evidence to say that remissions in heart
disease happen. (I know a better trial could have been done
by having 2 groups, a balanced mix of males and females,
with randomisation/placebo) Questions I would ask is why
would you discount this study as not being evidence for
reversal of deposits, since they were physically reversed?
Also how does the placebo effect come into action here with
the patient in reducing the deposits? Thanks Anth

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

drlam.comdrlam.comOpen ↗ Mathias Rath and colleague
conducted a yearlong study to determine the effect of a
defined nutritional supplementation program on the
natural progression of coronary artery disease. He gave
55 patients with various stages of coronary artery
disease, aged 44-67, a daily nutritional supplementation
program including 2,700 mg of vitamin C, vitamin B

complex,

Quoted message said:

600 IU of vitamin E (d-alpha-tocopherol), 450 mg of L-
proline, 450 mg of L-lysine, 390 mcg of folic acid, 30
mg of coenzyme Q-10, and 450 mg of citrus bioflavinoids.
Changes in the progression of coronary artery
calcification before and during the program were
determined by Ultrafast Computerized Tomography. Before
the intervention, the natural

progression

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rate of the coronary artery calcification averaged 44%
per year.

However,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

during the year of treatment, the progression of
coronary artery calcification decreased by an average of
15%. In a subgroup of patients

with

Quoted message said:

early stages of coronary artery disease, treatment
resulted in a statistically significant decrease, with
no further progression of

coronary

Quoted message said:

calcification. In individual cases, reversal and
complete disappearance

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

previously existing coronary calcification were
documented. This

landmark

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

study, published in the Journal of Applied Nutrition
(1996, 48:3),

showed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that coronary artery disease could be effectively
prevented and treated

by

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

natural means. In patients with early coronary
calcification,

progression

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was halted. In individual cases with small-calcified
deposits,

nutritional

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

supplement intervention led to the complete
disappearance of the

deposits

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anth

Can you see any problems with this trial, Anth? Any
questions you might like to ask concerning it?

Peter Moran

I just did a Medline searh on "antioxidants and coronary
artery disease". Evidence seems to be building that
supplemental Vitamin C, Vitamin E, and Coenzyme Q have no
effect in humans on atherosclerosis. One prospective study
of 1000mgm Vitaminc and 800 mgm Vitamin E in post-menopausal
women with early coronary artery narrowing seems to show an
adverse effect!

Rath used the following extraordinary cocktail in his study.
Such an approach is is not going to advance medical
knowledge much, but it will certainly help sell the
cocktail..

Vitamins: Vitamin C 2700 mg, Vitamin E (d-Alpha-Tocopherol)
600 IU, Vitamin A (as beta carotene) 7,500 IU, Vitamin B- I
(Thiamine) 30 mg, Vitamin B-2 (Riboflavin) 30 mg, Vitamin B3
(as Niacin and Niacinamide) 195 mg, Vitamin B-5
(Pantothenate) 180 mg, Vitamin B-6 (Pyridoxine) 45 mg,
Vitamin B-12 (Cyanocobalamin) 90 mcg, Vitamin D
(Cholecalciferol) 600 IU.

Minerals: Calcium 150 mg, Magnesium 180 mg, Potassium 90 mg,
Phosphate 60 mg, Zinc 30 mg, Manganese 6 mg, Copper 1500
mcg, Selenium 90 mcg, Chromium 45 mcg, Molybdenum 18 mcg.

Amino acids: L-Proline 450 mg. L-Lysine 450 mg, L-Carnitine
150 mg, L-Arginine 150 mg, and L-Cysteine 150 mg.

Coenzymes and other nutrients: FolicAcid 390 mcg, Biotin 300
mcg, Inositol 150 mg, Coenzyme Q-10 30 mg, Pycnogenol 30 mg,
and Citrus Bioflavonoids 450
mg.

Peter Moran

He was measuring calcified deposits using the CAS score, the
more calcium accumulated means higher score. I think this
one would be a good one to discuss, and put behind us. Anth

"Mark Probert-March 22, 2004" <Mark Probert03-22-
[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:405f5b8f$0$32758$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
01.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> drlam.comdrlam.comOpen ↗ Mathias Rath and colleague
> conducted a yearlong study to determine

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> effect of a defined nutritional supplementation
> program on the

natural

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> progression of coronary artery disease. He gave 55
> patients with

various

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> stages of coronary artery disease, aged 44-67, a
> daily nutritional supplementation program including
> 2,700 mg of vitamin C, vitamin B
complex,
> 600 IU of vitamin E (d-alpha-tocopherol), 450 mg of
> L-proline, 450

mg

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> L-lysine, 390 mcg of folic acid, 30 mg of coenzyme
> Q-10, and 450 mg

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> citrus bioflavinoids. Changes in the progression of
> coronary artery calcification before and during the
> program were determined by

Ultrafast

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Computerized Tomography. Before the intervention,
> the natural

progression

Quoted message said:

> rate of the coronary artery calcification averaged
> 44% per year.

However,

Quoted message said:

> during the year of treatment, the progression of
> coronary artery calcification decreased by an
> average of 15%. In a subgroup of

patients

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with
> early stages of coronary artery disease, treatment
> resulted in a statistically significant decrease,
> with no further progression of
coronary
> calcification. In individual cases, reversal and
> complete

disappearance

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

> previously existing coronary calcification were
> documented. This

landmark

Quoted message said:

> study, published in the Journal of Applied Nutrition
> (1996, 48:3),

showed

Quoted message said:

> that coronary artery disease could be effectively
> prevented and

treated

Quoted message said:

by

Quoted message said:

> natural means. In patients with early coronary
> calcification,

progression

Quoted message said:

> was halted. In individual cases with small-calcified
> deposits,

nutritional

Quoted message said:

> supplement intervention led to the complete
> disappearance of the

deposits

Quoted message said:

> Anth
>
>

Can you see any problems with this trial, Anth? Any
questions you

might

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

like to ask concerning it?

Peter Moran

Yep I can't see any mortality data or long term follow
up, and the

control

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was a cross over study which meant the person were their
own controls. Questions I would ask are how did the
deposits and plaques disappear and halt if the treatment
had no effect?

Other good questions pertain to the rate issues. Just what
were they measuiring, and what was the baseline, which one
needs to determine a

rate.

Quoted message said:

It is, AFAIAC, a bogus study.

Quoted message said:

I just did a Medline searh on "antioxidants and coronary
artery disease". Evidence seems to be building that
supplemental Vitamin C, Vitamin E, and Coenzyme Q have no
effect in humans on atherosclerosis. One prospective study
of 1000mgm Vitaminc and 800 mgm Vitamin E in post-
menopausal women with early coronary artery narrowing
seems to show an adverse effect!

Rath used the following extraordinary cocktail in his
study. Such an approach is is not going to advance medical
knowledge much, but it will certainly help sell the
cocktail..

Vitamins: Vitamin C 2700 mg, Vitamin E (d-Alpha-
Tocopherol) 600 IU,

Vitamin

Quoted message said:

A (as beta carotene) 7,500 IU, Vitamin B- I (Thiamine)
30 mg, Vitamin B-2 (Riboflavin) 30 mg, Vitamin B3 (as
Niacin and Niacinamide) 195 mg, Vitamin B-5
(Pantothenate) 180 mg, Vitamin B-6 (Pyridoxine) 45 mg,
Vitamin B-12 (Cyanocobalamin) 90 mcg, Vitamin D
(Cholecalciferol) 600 IU.

Minerals: Calcium 150 mg, Magnesium 180 mg, Potassium
90 mg, Phosphate 60 mg, Zinc 30 mg, Manganese 6 mg,
Copper 1500 mcg, Selenium 90 mcg, Chromium 45 mcg,
Molybdenum 18 mcg.

Amino acids: L-Proline 450 mg. L-Lysine 450 mg, L-
Carnitine 150 mg, L-Arginine 150 mg, and L-Cysteine 150
mg.

Coenzymes and other nutrients: FolicAcid 390 mcg, Biotin
300 mcg, Inositol 150 mg, Coenzyme Q-10 30 mg, Pycnogenol
30 mg, and Citrus Bioflavonoids

450

Quoted message said:

mg.

Peter Moran

What if it works though, and we spend another 250 years
waiting for the truth to come out?

ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14975474 I come up with
this - 6 month study - small dose and no lysine!

If you look at the curve in Rath's study, it looks like an
exponential curve, linear at the start then gradullay
climbing.. Why would curves like that suddenly flatten out
and decrease over time (forming a bell?), when the growth is
exponential ?

Anth BTW Waiting for that 'soon to be published' study
on Pauling therapy which documented 800%-1500% reduction
in plaques.

drrathresearch.orgcondition atOpen ↗
herosclerosis.html If you notice in Rath's study, he doesn't
document much of a decrease in deposits in months 1-6, but
after that he documents a small decrease, after that in
months 7-12 he seems to show a big decrease.. Anth

Quoted message said:

ncbi.nlm.nih.govquery.fcgiOpen ↗
db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14975474

Quoted message said:

I come up with this - 6 month study - small dose and
no lysine!

Yeah, where on this curve does the study start, and where in
other studies used as arguments against does this curve
start. It would be nice to see the growth over time
including when the protocol was started, so we could
visually look at the data. Anth

"Mark Probert-March 22, 2004" <Mark Probert03-22-
[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Other good questions pertain to the rate issues. Just what
were they measuiring, and what was the baseline, which one
needs to determine a

rate.

Quoted message said:

It is, AFAIAC, a bogus study.

I'm going to do a bit of emailing, asking the Rath
foundation for the monthly data for all patients while on
and off the therapy. The summary in the study doesn't
convince me, I'd rather see it plotted.. Let's see if we
get it. Anth

"Mark Probert-March 22, 2004" <Mark Probert03-22-
[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It is, AFAIAC, a bogus study.

This is what I intend to do :- I've already asked the Rath
foundation for CAS data for all patients for the duration of
the study. Then I can graph this data for all 55 people and
see if there's a definite trend in the data. Does anyone see
any problems with this? Anth BTW Peter I have millions of
questions I would like to ask but I doubt you have the time
to answer them. Some pointers would be appreciated though to
get me kick started.

Anth said:

If you look at the curve in Rath's study, it looks like an
exponential curve, linear at the start then gradullay
climbing.. Why would curves like that suddenly flatten out
and decrease over time (forming a bell?), when the growth
is exponential ?

By coincidence, my brother mentioned to me yesterday a
published study in his field of expertise which showed a bell-
shaped curve for time to presence of adinocarcinoma from
initial detection of pre-cancerous cells. It turns out that
the sample at the right-hand end of the graph was not the
same as at the left.

In real estate it's location, location and location. In
statistical analysis it's sample, sample and sample.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project ratbags.comrsolesOpen ↗
The Green Light ratbags.comgreenlightOpen ↗
and The New Improved Quintessence of the Loon with added Vitamins and C-Q10 ratbags.comloonOpen ↗
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

In article <[email hidden]>,

Anth said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:405f5b8f$0$32758$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
01.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

drlam.comdrlam.comOpen ↗ Mathias Rath and colleague
conducted a yearlong study to determine the effect of a
defined nutritional supplementation program on the
natural progression of coronary artery disease. He gave
55 patients with various stages of coronary artery
disease, aged 44-67, a daily nutritional
supplementation program including 2,700 mg of vitamin
C, vitamin B

complex,

Quoted message said:

600 IU of vitamin E (d-alpha-tocopherol), 450 mg of L-
proline, 450 mg of L-lysine, 390 mcg of folic acid, 30
mg of coenzyme Q-10, and 450 mg of citrus
bioflavinoids. Changes in the progression of coronary
artery calcification before and during the program were
determined by Ultrafast Computerized Tomography. Before
the intervention, the natural

progression

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rate of the coronary artery calcification averaged 44%
per year.

However,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

during the year of treatment, the progression of
coronary artery calcification decreased by an average
of 15%. In a subgroup of patients

with

Quoted message said:

early stages of coronary artery disease, treatment
resulted in a statistically significant decrease, with
no further progression of

coronary

Quoted message said:

calcification. In individual cases, reversal and
complete disappearance

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

previously existing coronary calcification were
documented. This

landmark

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

study, published in the Journal of Applied Nutrition
(1996, 48:3),

showed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that coronary artery disease could be effectively
prevented and treated

by

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

natural means. In patients with early coronary
calcification,

progression

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was halted. In individual cases with small-calcified
deposits,

nutritional

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

supplement intervention led to the complete
disappearance of the

deposits

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anth

Can you see any problems with this trial, Anth? Any
questions you might like to ask concerning it?

Peter Moran

Yep I can't see any mortality data or long term follow up,
and the control was a cross over study which meant the
person were their own controls. Questions I would ask are
how did the deposits and plaques disappear and halt if the
treatment had no effect? Anth.

Paging Dr. Ornish.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net These are my
opinions only, but they're almost always correct. "If I
have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were
standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:405f5b8f$0$32758$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
01.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

drlam.comdrlam.comOpen ↗ Mathias Rath and colleague
conducted a yearlong study to determine the effect of
a defined nutritional supplementation program on the
natural progression of coronary artery disease. He
gave 55 patients with

various

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stages of coronary artery disease, aged 44-67, a daily
nutritional supplementation program including 2,700 mg
of vitamin C, vitamin B

complex,

Quoted message said:

600 IU of vitamin E (d-alpha-tocopherol), 450 mg of
L-proline, 450 mg

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

L-lysine, 390 mcg of folic acid, 30 mg of coenzyme Q-
10, and 450 mg of citrus bioflavinoids. Changes in the
progression of coronary artery calcification before
and during the program were determined by

Ultrafast

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Computerized Tomography. Before the intervention, the
natural

progression

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rate of the coronary artery calcification averaged 44%
per year.

However,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

during the year of treatment, the progression of
coronary artery calcification decreased by an average
of 15%. In a subgroup of

patients

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with

Quoted message said:

early stages of coronary artery disease, treatment
resulted in a statistically significant decrease, with
no further progression of

coronary

Quoted message said:

calcification. In individual cases, reversal and
complete

disappearance

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

previously existing coronary calcification were
documented. This

landmark

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

study, published in the Journal of Applied Nutrition
(1996, 48:3),

showed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that coronary artery disease could be effectively
prevented and

treated

Quoted message said:

by

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

natural means. In patients with early coronary
calcification,

progression

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was halted. In individual cases with small-calcified
deposits,

nutritional

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

supplement intervention led to the complete
disappearance of the

deposits

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anth

Can you see any problems with this trial, Anth? Any
questions you

might

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

like to ask concerning it?

Peter Moran

Yep I can't see any mortality data or long term follow up,
and the control was a cross over study which meant the
person were their own controls. Questions I would ask are
how did the deposits and plaques disappear and halt if the
treatment had no effect? Anth.

Yes. My main worry was the absence of a contemporary,
identical control group. It is an untenable assumption that
the atherosclerosis in these fifty five patients would have
progressed at the same rate forever without the supplements.

Many were also using normal medical treatments. Even if
they changed nothing during the course of the study,
recent changes in treatment or diet (not excluded by the
study design) may have had a carry over effect into the
trial period.

So far as minimal calcium deposits disappearing, this
depends upon the validation of the method. Might a CT scan
at 3mm cuts, raken from a slightly different starting
position, in a constantly moving organ, sometimes completely
fail to show a 3-4mm plaque, or often just clip the edge of
a larger plaque making it look smaller? In a large
randomised trial such variabilities would even out, but not
one like this.

The problem with Rath is that it is hard to take anyone who
has published so much low quality research very seriously.

I wonder how this journal accepted this paper? Is it a
serious medical journal? Does anyone know? I cannot find a
web site for it.

Peter Moran

.

Perhaps, but, when one discusses a *rate* one needs a
baseline to begin with. There is no baseline in the report.

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

He was measuring calcified deposits using the CAS score,
the more calcium accumulated means higher score. I think
this one would be a good one to discuss, and put behind
us. Anth

"Mark Probert-March 22, 2004" <Mark Probert03-22-
[email hidden]>

wrote

Quoted message said:

in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:405f5b8f$0$32758$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
01.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> "Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> .-"]news:[email hidden].-
> ..
> > drlam.comdrlam.comOpen ↗ Mathias Rath and colleague
> > conducted a yearlong study to determine

the

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Quoted message said:

> > effect of a defined nutritional supplementation
> > program on the

natural

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> > progression of coronary artery disease. He gave 55
> > patients with

various

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> > stages of coronary artery disease, aged 44-67, a
> > daily nutritional supplementation program
> > including 2,700 mg of vitamin C, vitamin B
> complex,
> > 600 IU of vitamin E (d-alpha-tocopherol), 450 mg
> > of L-proline, 450

mg

Quoted message said:

of

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> > L-lysine, 390 mcg of folic acid, 30 mg of coenzyme
> > Q-10, and 450

mg

Quoted message said:

of

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> > citrus bioflavinoids. Changes in the progression
> > of coronary

artery

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> > calcification before and during the program were
> > determined by

Ultrafast

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> > Computerized Tomography. Before the intervention,
> > the natural
progression
> > rate of the coronary artery calcification averaged
> > 44% per year.
However,
> > during the year of treatment, the progression of
> > coronary artery calcification decreased by an
> > average of 15%. In a subgroup of

patients

Quoted message said:

> with
> > early stages of coronary artery disease, treatment
> > resulted in a statistically significant decrease,
> > with no further progression of
> coronary
> > calcification. In individual cases, reversal and
> > complete

disappearance

Quoted message said:

of
> > previously existing coronary calcification were
> > documented. This
landmark
> > study, published in the Journal of Applied
> > Nutrition (1996, 48:3),
showed
> > that coronary artery disease could be effectively
> > prevented and

treated

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by
> > natural means. In patients with early coronary
> > calcification,
progression
> > was halted. In individual cases with small-
> > calcified deposits,
nutritional
> > supplement intervention led to the complete
> > disappearance of the
deposits
> > Anth
> >
> >
>
> Can you see any problems with this trial, Anth? Any
> questions you

might

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> like to ask concerning it?
>
> Peter Moran

Yep I can't see any mortality data or long term follow
up, and the

control

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was a cross over study which meant the person were
their own controls. Questions I would ask are how did
the deposits and plaques disappear

and

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halt if the treatment had no effect?

Other good questions pertain to the rate issues. Just
what were they measuiring, and what was the baseline,
which one needs to determine a

rate.

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It is, AFAIAC, a bogus study.

I agree that this study would benefit from a good graphical
visualization. If it were validly done, there would be one.

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yeah, where on this curve does the study start, and where
in other studies used as arguments against does this curve
start. It would be nice to see the growth over time
including when the protocol

was

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started, so we could visually look at the data. Anth

"Mark Probert-March 22, 2004" <Mark Probert03-22-
[email hidden]>

wrote

Quoted message said:

in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Other good questions pertain to the rate issues. Just
what were they measuiring, and what was the baseline,
which one needs to determine a

rate.

Quoted message said:

It is, AFAIAC, a bogus study.

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[snip]

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Yes. My main worry was the absence of a contemporary,
identical control group. It is an untenable assumption
that the atherosclerosis in these fifty five patients
would have progressed at the same rate forever

without

Quoted message said:

the supplements.

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Many were also using normal medical treatments. Even if
they changed nothing during the course of the study,
recent changes in treatment or

diet

Quoted message said:

(not excluded by the study design) may have had a carry
over effect into the trial period.

I think he states in the study that the persons diet was
monitored, but gaining accurate information on diet would be
hard as people rarely remember what they do eat. Do current
medicines actually reverse calcium plaques?

Quoted message said:

So far as minimal calcium deposits disappearing, this
depends upon the validation of the method. Might a CT scan
at 3mm cuts, raken from a slightly different starting
position, in a constantly moving organ, sometimes
completely fail to show a 3-4mm plaque, or often just clip
the edge of a larger plaque making it look smaller? In a
large randomised trial such variabilities would even out,
but not one like this.

I understand what you are saying about the sampling missing
plaques, since smaller plaques in less advanced cases could
be missed by sampling. This is how I understand he did it,
Initially, CT scanned area slices along the complete artery
(30 scans at 3mm intervals) - that's about 9cm of artery,
this scan showed plaques. Then, after the nutritional
protocol, he scanned again at 1.5mm intervals and compared
to the previous scans. He asserts that in some cases the
plaques had completely disappeared along the _complete_
artery, so if these plaques were less than 1.5mm^3 there's a
potential that CT scanner would miss them. The 1.5mm scan is
a higher frequency, so our conjecture (to fail the study) is
that the plaques were smaller than 1.5mm^3 for the scan to
miss them. What would be ideal is for him to supply the
complete scan sets (every slice as a high resolution image)
for the cases he presented as complete reversal of early
stage atherosclerosis, so we could verify that the plaques
were indeed larger than 1.5mm^3, and this would refute the
argument of smaller plaque size being missed by the scans?
So in essense, what we need is a complete artery scan
showing a large plaque larger than 1.5mm^3 to be able to
validate reversal. If he can supply many cases of these
scans then there's potential that the study is sound. Does
this sound alright?

Quoted message said:

The problem with Rath is that it is hard to take anyone
who has published

so

Quoted message said:

much low quality research very seriously.

Quoted message said:

I wonder how this journal accepted this paper? Is it a
serious medical journal? Does anyone know? I cannot find a
web site for it.

I have no idea, it costs me a fortune buying copywrited
papers, I think I need a decent membership in a medical
library. I find this kind of stuff interesting, I'll
look into it.

Quoted message said:

Peter Moran

Anth

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is what I intend to do :- I've already asked the Rath
foundation for CAS data for all patients for

the

Quoted message said:

duration of the study. Then I can graph this data for all
55 people and see if there's a definite trend in the data.
Does anyone see any problems with this?

It might be interesting to see if there is any apparent
abrupt change with taking the cocktail, but it would still
constitute rather weak evidence of benefit.

Among otehr things it may be spuriously skewed in favour of
the cocktail if the apparent improvement in some patients
with "minor" disease is merely an artefact of the
investigation technique. I don't wholly buy the proposition
that atherosclerosis continued to progress except in those
with early calcification. Calcification indicates an already
fairly advanced and probably irreversible stage of
atherosclerosis.

Peter Moran

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is what I intend to do :- I've already asked the
Rath foundation for CAS data for all patients for

the

Quoted message said:

duration of the study. Then I can graph this data for
all 55 people and see if there's a

definite

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trend in the data. Does anyone see any problems
with this?

It might be interesting to see if there is any apparent
abrupt change with taking the cocktail, but it would still
constitute rather weak evidence of benefit.

Among otehr things it may be spuriously skewed in favour
of the cocktail

if

Quoted message said:

the apparent improvement in some patients with "minor"
disease is merely

an

Quoted message said:

artefact of the investigation technique. I don't wholly
buy the proposition that atherosclerosis continued to
progress except in those

with

Quoted message said:

early calcification. Calcification indicates an already
fairly advanced

and

Quoted message said:

probably irreversible stage of atherosclerosis.

Well there's a problem - I assumed that the CT's would be
monthly, but as far as I can tell, the CT's are basically
start,nutrition,end so graphing this would produce 3 point
per person, which isn't what I was looking for. The only
other way I could think of as 'evidence', is the actual
disappearance of the deposits assuming there were deposits
greater than the sampling of the CT, which is what I intend
to look into.

Quoted message said:

I don't wholly buy the proposition that atherosclerosis
continued to

progress except in those with early calcification.

Seems strange, but could it be that the protocol needs to be
run longer so that the plaques in the advanced disease
(which would be larger) would dissolve. Rath quoted a cubic
polynomial, and if the cocktail showed no effect on large
numbers, could it not be that it would take longer for the
effect to be observed because it was too low? (Thinking you
have a large deposit rate vs small dissolve rate)

I'll think about this more. (No word from the Rath
foundation as yet - I can't see them doing high resolution
flat bed scans of the CT scans for all 55 people which would
amount to hundreds of megabytes of data for me to look at)

Quoted message said:

Peter Moran

Anth