basic odds and ends about wheel building

Bob Flemming said:

I re-built another wheel today, and it seems to be fine, but I have a few queries...

1. How do people stress relieve? I have tried spoke-gripping method with the hands but this is
proving to be a bit 'painful' as the spokes get tight

Gardening gloves help.

....so I switched to a bit of 2x1 wood! Do other people use

Quoted message said:

anything else other than their hands?

They do but fingers are best, I understand.

Quoted message said:

2. It's not uncommon for a wheel to lose it's trueness after stress-relieveing has taken place. I
guess this is the whole point -

No it's not (but bedding in is a useful side effect of it). Stress releiving pre-stresses the spokes
to reduce metal fatigue. See Jobst Brandt's explanations and instructions via
draco.acs.uci.edu8c.1.htmlOpen ↗ and Google Groups (and his book The Bicycle Wheel
...still haven't got a copy myself but have read many of his articles on r.b.t and his FAQ, etc).

Quoted message said:

the spokes are beginning to settle down. How do you know when enough stress-relieveing has been
done - when the wheel 'doesn't lose it's shape after such practice?

Spokes just need to be pulled together once, enough, then true can be touched up if necessary. There
is also the issue of spoke wind-up to deal with (also see Google Groups for that).

Quoted message said:

3. In relation to a rear wheel - Is it good to have quite such a big disparity between the tension
of the drive and non-drive spokes?

The difference is necessary for the dish, but the amount of difference will be less if thicker
spokes are used for the drive side. But the rear left spokes do normally feel much less taut than
rights so yours are probably ok.

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I can't give you any figures because I haven't got measuring equipment. I'm running a 7sp
freewheel on a 126 spacing and am pretty sure the axle is spaced correctly. It feels as thought
the non-drive side could wind up quite a bit more, but the drive side spokes are pretty much
'there' I think.

Drive side shouldn't be very far off being as tight as possible.

If the wheel dished properly (rim centred) then tension difference between sides will be correct.

--
~PB FA: 62cm Ti frame: tinyurl.com6sttOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. It's not uncommon for a wheel to lose it's trueness after stress-relieveing has taken place. I
guess this is the whole point -

No it's not (but bedding in is a useful side effect of it). Stress releiving pre-stresses the
spokes to reduce metal fatigue. See Jobst Brandt's explanations and instructions via
draco.acs.uci.edu8c.1.htmlOpen ↗ and Google Groups (and his book The Bicycle Wheel
...still haven't got a copy myself but have read many of his articles on r.b.t and his FAQ, etc).

I am aware of his writings, but quite honestly, always find it quite difficult to understand. Bit
above my head at times, he's a master of the cerebral this guy.. I've just read the article you
cite, and *think* I'm getting it....but it's going to take another read :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the spokes are beginning to settle down. How do you know when enough stress-relieveing has been
done - when the wheel 'doesn't lose it's shape after such practice?

Spokes just need to be pulled together once, enough, then true can be touched up if necessary.
There is also the issue of spoke wind-up to deal with (also see Google Groups for that).

Yes, I'm aware of spoke wind-up, but am pretty confident that this wasn't a problem at the time. I
was curious that the wheel only stayed true after a few sessions of stress-relieving.

Quoted message said:

If the wheel dished properly (rim centred) then tension difference between sides will be correct.

yeah, the dish is fine.

anyway thanks

bob

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. It's not uncommon for a wheel to lose it's trueness after stress-relieveing has taken place.
I guess this is the whole point -

No it's not (but bedding in is a useful side effect of it). Stress releiving pre-stresses the
spokes to reduce metal fatigue. See Jobst Brandt's explanations and instructions via
draco.acs.uci.edu8c.1.htmlOpen ↗ and Google Groups (and his book The Bicycle Wheel
...still haven't got a copy myself but have read many of his articles on r.b.t and his FAQ, etc).

I am aware of his writings, but quite honestly, always find it quite difficult to understand.

I just need a good teacher, then I can understand everything...now I feel better! And he doesn't use
his hands either. Good enough for me
:-)

sheldonbrown.comwheelbuild.htmlOpen ↗

bob

Quoted message said:

Bit above my head at times, he's a master of the cerebral this guy.. I've just read the article you
cite, and *think* I'm getting it....but it's going to take another read :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the spokes are beginning to settle down. How do you know when enough stress-relieveing has been
done - when the wheel 'doesn't lose it's shape after such practice?

Spokes just need to be pulled together once, enough, then true can be touched up if necessary.
There is also the issue of spoke wind-up to deal with (also see Google Groups for that).

Yes, I'm aware of spoke wind-up, but am pretty confident that this wasn't a problem at the time. I
was curious that the wheel only stayed true after a few sessions of stress-relieving.

Quoted message said:

If the wheel dished properly (rim centred) then tension difference between sides will be correct.

yeah, the dish is fine.

anyway thanks

bob

On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 14:14:38 +0000, Bob Flemming scrawled: ) 1. How do people stress relieve?

I normally go cycling, but I think you want to make sure your wheel is OK before you do that.
Needlework?

J-P
--
CHAPTER 28: THE DREADED ELECTRIC PENCIL SHARPENER. HURRRRRRANG HUHHHHH.

"Bob Flemming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I re-built another wheel today, and it seems to be fine, but I have a few queries...

1. How do people stress relieve? I have tried spoke-gripping method with the hands but this is
proving to be a bit 'painful' as the spokes get tight....so I switched to a bit of 2x1 wood! Do
other people use anything else other than their hands?

I sit down with the wheel in my lap and twist on the rim with a sort of pushing, pulling and
generally leaning on the rim with my forearms. (I use Mavic 517 SUP)

John

"Bob Flemming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I re-built another wheel today, and it seems to be fine, but I have a few queries...

1. How do people stress relieve? I have tried spoke-gripping method with the hands but this is
proving to be a bit 'painful' as the spokes get tight....so I switched to a bit of 2x1 wood! Do
other people use anything else other than their hands?

Old LH crank as recommended by sheldon brown www.sheldonbrown.com

Quoted message said:

2. It's not uncommon for a wheel to lose it's trueness after stress-relieveing has taken place. I
guess this is the whole point - the spokes are beginning to settle down. How do you know when
enough stress-relieveing has been done - when the wheel 'doesn't lose it's shape after such
practice?

I do it and then wind on another 1/4 turn - do it again and another 1/4 turn - 4 goes at that ans it
always seems sorted

Quoted message said:

3. In relation to a rear wheel - Is it good to have quite such a big disparity between the tension
of the drive and non-drive spokes? I can't give you any figures because I haven't got measuring
equipment. I'm running a 7sp freewheel on a 126 spacing and am pretty sure the axle is spaced
correctly. It feels as thought the non-drive side could wind up quite a bit more, but the drive
side spokes are pretty much 'there' I think.

That's supposed to happen

Russ

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob Flemming said:

Quoted message said:

> 2. It's not uncommon for a wheel to lose it's trueness after stress-relieveing has taken
> place. I guess this is the whole point -

No it's not (but bedding in is a useful side effect of it). Stress releiving pre-stresses the
spokes to reduce metal fatigue. See Jobst Brandt's explanations and instructions via
draco.acs.uci.edu8c.1.htmlOpen ↗ and Google Groups (and his book The Bicycle Wheel
...still haven't got a copy myself but have read many of his articles on r.b.t and his FAQ,
etc).

I am aware of his writings, but quite honestly, always find it quite difficult to understand.
Bit above my head at times

Mine too, but the major points sink in when you read enough if it enough times! :-)

I've actually read it and think its OK. I just wonder why you have to get the spoke all nicely set
up before you stretch it? Surely you could rig it up to pre-stress it before you even make the
wheel, never mind get it almost true.

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, he's a master of the cerebral this guy

I think he's the master of plain writing, actually - to the point of being over-simplistic. eg.
"Bicycles don't accelerate". It's just that he writes about some difficult subjects,

Maybe, but he does seem to throw in things that are a bit pseudo-science, including things that are
downright wrong (e.g. ridges on knobles melt ice and make them more slippy). But the "bikes don't
accellerate (much)" I'd have to agree with - although he almost always talks in the context of
hardcore racing cyclists.

Quoted message said:

and has a bit of an attitude problem - which does get in the way.

Attitude problem? "no such thing as puncture resistant tyres" ? He's extremely blinkered at times,
some of which are very obvious as the above, some less so "rim rigidity makes no difference",
"spokes are never broken by drive torque" (maybe true with skinny racers, but 2 nonskinny people on
a tandem... with 16% hills? might make a difference to the analysis! ).

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Brandt's explanations and instructions via draco.acs.uci.edu8c.1.htmlOpen ↗ and Google
Groups (and his book The Bicycle Wheel ...still haven't got a copy myself

It's a thing of beauty. Amazon have got it for a shade under 16 quid ATM. Bargain.

--
Dave...

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

It's just that he (Jobst Brandt) writes about some difficult subjects, and has a bit of an
attitude problem - which does get in the way.

He can certainly be a bit prickly, and he doesn't tolerate fools gladly, but it's understandable
considering a) some of the sustained and vitriolic attacks that are made on him; b) the way many of
his detractors, who have clearly not read the book, accuse it of leaving out detail that is in fact
not left out; c) some of the technically illiterate arguments he has to refute over and over again;
and d) the way people are always asking him to spell out detailed points they could easily check by
reading the book.

--
Dave...

"Eatmorepies" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Bob Flemming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1. How do people stress relieve? I have tried spoke-gripping method with the hands but this is
proving to be a bit 'painful' as the spokes get tight....so I switched to a bit of 2x1 wood!
Do other people use anything else other than their hands?

I sit down with the wheel in my lap and twist on the rim with a sort of pushing, pulling and
generally leaning on the rim with my forearms. (I use Mavic 517 SUP)

This may help to relieve spoke wind-up and produce some satisfying pings, but it is not stress
relief in the sense meant here. Twisting the rim does not increase spoke tension significantly, but
rather slackens a few spokes temporarily. The idea is to increase the spoke tension sufficiently to
give a permanent set to the high stress points within each spoke.

--
Dave...

Dave Kahn said:

It's a thing of beauty. Amazon have got it for a shade under 16 quid ATM. Bargain.

The delivery time is hideous unfortunately.

Regards,

-impatient david

Bob Flemming said:

I re-built another wheel today, and it seems to be fine, but I have a few queries...

1. How do people stress relieve? I have tried spoke-gripping method with the hands but this is
proving to be a bit 'painful' as the spokes get tight....so I switched to a bit of 2x1 wood! Do
other people use anything else other than their hands?

Yes it does hurt a bit, try an old pair of track mitts or gardening gloves.

Quoted message said:

2. It's not uncommon for a wheel to lose it's trueness after stress-relieveing has taken place. I
guess this is the whole point - the spokes are beginning to settle down. How do you know when
enough stress-relieveing has been done - when the wheel 'doesn't lose it's shape after such
practice?

If the rim takes up a shape like a pringle (with two left and two right wobbles) of a few mm you
have put in a little too much tension, back off a
1/4 turn.

If it throws a major pringle shape you may of stuffed the rim. This is very difficult to do with
modern rims as the tension needed to do so would be very high.

If its a fairly random wobble, its just the spokes bedding into the hub and is no problem.

Quoted message said:

3. In relation to a rear wheel - Is it good to have quite such a big disparity between the tension
of the drive and non-drive spokes? I can't give you any figures because I haven't got measuring
equipment. I'm running a 7sp freewheel on a 126 spacing and am pretty sure the axle is spaced
correctly. It feels as thought the non-drive side could wind up quite a bit more, but the drive
side spokes are pretty much 'there' I think.

There is a big difference in the tension, check the dish and go by that, you will need a lot of
tension in the drive side to keep the non drive side tight enough to stop the spokes going slack
when you honk up hills. Keep stress relieving and watching for the pringle shape and you will be OK.

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
home.in.tum.deoe quotefixOpen ↗

"W K" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob Flemming said:

>> 2. It's not uncommon for a wheel to lose it's trueness after stress-relieveing has taken
>> place. I guess this is the whole point -
>
> No it's not (but bedding in is a useful side effect of it). Stress releiving pre-stresses the
> spokes to reduce metal fatigue. See Jobst Brandt's explanations and instructions via
> draco.acs.uci.edu8c.1.htmlOpen ↗ and Google Groups (and his book The Bicycle
> Wheel ...still haven't got a copy myself but have read many of his articles on r.b.t and his
> FAQ, etc).

I am aware of his writings, but quite honestly, always find it quite difficult to understand.
Bit above my head at times

Mine too, but the major points sink in when you read enough if it enough times! :-)

I've actually read it and think its OK. I just wonder why you have to get the spoke all nicely set
up before you stretch it? Surely you could rig it up to pre-stress it before you even make the
wheel, never mind get it almost true.

spokes bend at elboes when U lase the up so cant stress relive until laced look at some spoks taken
out off a wheel some time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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, he's a master of the cerebral this guy

I think he's the master of plain writing, actually - to the point of being over-simplistic. eg.
"Bicycles don't accelerate". It's just that he writes about some difficult subjects,

Maybe, but he does seem to throw in things that are a bit pseudo-science, including things that
are downright wrong (e.g. ridges on knobles melt ice and make them more slippy). But the "bikes
don't accellerate (much)" I'd have to agree with - although he almost always talks in the context
of hardcore racing cyclists.

Quoted message said:

and has a bit of an attitude problem - which does get in the way.

Attitude problem? "no such thing as puncture resistant tyres" ? He's extremely blinkered at times,
some of which are very obvious as the above, some less so "rim rigidity makes no difference",
"spokes are never broken by drive torque" (maybe true with skinny racers, but 2 nonskinny people
on a tandem... with 16% hills? might make a difference to the analysis! ).

Nope because drive torqs a very small fraction of spok load hub flange would brake 1st did U read
the book????????? duh. JumpZkid
--
The opinions expressed are those of the JUMPHUNTER!!!!!!!!

"Jumpzkid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"W K" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob Flemming wrote:
>>> 2. It's not uncommon for a wheel to lose it's trueness after stress-relieveing has taken
>>> place. I guess this is the whole

point -

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>>
>> No it's not (but bedding in is a useful side effect of it). Stress releiving pre-stresses
>> the spokes to reduce metal fatigue. See

Jobst

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Brandt's explanations and instructions via draco.acs.uci.edu8c.1.htmlOpen ↗ and
>> Google Groups (and his book The Bicycle Wheel ...still haven't got a copy myself but have
>> read many of his articles on r.b.t and his FAQ, etc).
>
> I am aware of his writings, but quite honestly, always find it quite difficult to
> understand. Bit above my head at times

Mine too, but the major points sink in when you read enough if it

enough

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Quoted message said:

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times! :-)

I've actually read it and think its OK. I just wonder why you have to

get

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Quoted message said:

the spoke all nicely set up before you stretch it? Surely you could rig it up to pre-stress it
before you even make the

wheel,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

never mind get it almost true.

spokes bend at elboes when U lase the up so cant stress relive until laced look at some spoks
taken out off a wheel some time.

Oh really. I had in mind that the rig would stress relieve the elbows with one end being held in
something approximating to a hub.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> , he's a master of the cerebral this guy

I think he's the master of plain writing, actually - to the point of

being

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

over-simplistic. eg. "Bicycles don't accelerate". It's just that he writes about some
difficult subjects,

Maybe, but he does seem to throw in things that are a bit

pseudo-science,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

including things that are downright wrong (e.g. ridges on knobles melt

ice

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and make them more slippy). But the "bikes don't accellerate (much)" I'd have to agree with -

although

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

he almost always talks in the context of hardcore racing cyclists.

Quoted message said:

and has a bit of an attitude problem - which does get in the way.

Attitude problem? "no such thing as puncture resistant tyres" ? He's extremely blinkered at
times, some of which are very obvious as the above, some less so "rim rigidity makes no
difference", "spokes are

never

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

broken by drive torque" (maybe true with skinny racers, but 2 nonskinny people on a tandem...
with 16% hills? might make a difference to the analysis! ).

Nope because drive torqs a very small fraction of spok load hub flange would brake 1st did U read
the book????????? duh. JumpZkid

You write like that you look like some dumb troll, or a 13 year old.

If you'd like to quote the figures, OK, but seeing as he only quotes roadie specific examples for
everything else I doubt he's worked it out properly for the case I mention.

W K said:

"Jumpzkid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"W K" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Attitude problem? "no such thing as puncture resistant tyres" ?

What Brandt says is that wet glass will cut anything, Kevlar strips or not. He's right.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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above, some less so "rim rigidity makes no difference", "spokes are never broken by drive torque"
(maybe true with skinny racers, but 2 nonskinny people on a tandem... with 16% hills? might make
a difference to the analysis! ).

Nope because drive torqs a very small fraction of spok load hub flange would brake 1st did U read
the book????????? duh. JumpZkid

You write like that you look like some dumb troll, or a 13 year old.

He does, but he looks like a 13 yo who's _read_ The Bicycle Wheel. Doubling or even tripling drive
torque would still leave it a fraction of spoke load.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

"W K" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Jumpzkid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"W K" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> Bob Flemming wrote:
> >>> 2. It's not uncommon for a wheel to lose it's trueness after stress-relieveing has taken
> >>> place. I guess this is the whole

point -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >>
> >> No it's not (but bedding in is a useful side effect of it). Stress releiving pre-stresses
> >> the spokes to reduce metal fatigue. See

Jobst

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> Brandt's explanations and instructions via draco.acs.uci.edu8c.1.htmlOpen ↗
> >> and Google Groups (and his book The Bicycle Wheel ...still haven't got a copy myself but
> >> have read many of his articles on r.b.t and his FAQ, etc).
> >
> > I am aware of his writings, but quite honestly, always find it quite difficult to
> > understand. Bit above my head at times
>
> Mine too, but the major points sink in when you read enough if it

enough

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Quoted message said:

> times! :-)

I've actually read it and think its OK. I just wonder why you have to

get

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the spoke all nicely set up before you stretch it? Surely you could rig it up to pre-stress it
before you even make the

wheel,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

never mind get it almost true.

spokes bend at elboes when U lase the up so cant stress relive until laced look at some spoks
taken out off a wheel some time.

Oh really. I had in mind that the rig would stress relieve the elbows with one end being held in
something approximating to a hub.

uh very clevr build a weel and UR back 2 square 1 so U sell spokes 4 thick flanges thin flanges
leading trailing heads in heads out radil 2x 3x in evry length soounds lik,e a inventory
nitemare!!!!!!! why not just stress relive 1nce their bent according to positon oh you already
do.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > , he's a master of the cerebral this guy
>
> I think he's the master of plain writing, actually - to the point of

being

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> over-simplistic. eg. "Bicycles don't accelerate". It's just that he writes about some
> difficult subjects,

Maybe, but he does seem to throw in things that are a bit

pseudo-science,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

including things that are downright wrong (e.g. ridges on knobles melt

ice

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and make them more slippy). But the "bikes don't accellerate (much)" I'd have to agree with -

although

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

he almost always talks in the context of hardcore racing cyclists.

>and has a bit of an attitude problem - which does get in the way.

Attitude problem? "no such thing as puncture resistant tyres" ? He's extremely blinkered at
times, some of which are very obvious as the above, some less so "rim rigidity makes no
difference", "spokes are

never

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

broken by drive torque" (maybe true with skinny racers, but 2 nonskinny people on a tandem...
with 16% hills? might make a difference to the analysis! ).

Nope because drive torqs a very small fraction of spok load hub flange would brake 1st did U
read the book????????? duh. JumpZkid

You write like that you look like some dumb troll, or a 13 year old.

goood guess!!!!!!

Quoted message said:

If you'd like to quote the figures, OK, but seeing as he only quotes roadie specific examples for
everything else I doubt he's worked it out properly for the case I mention.

learn 2 apply basic consepts!!!!! U did read the book yah?????? JumpZkid
--
The opinions expressed are those of the JUMPHUNTER!!!!!!!

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

W K said:

"Jumpzkid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"W K" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>Attitude problem? "no such thing as puncture resistant tyres" ?

What Brandt says is that wet glass will cut anything, Kevlar strips or not. He's right.

No, he actually says that if you ride through glass you get a puncture and its as simple as that.
Aparantly he would never dream of riding with 4mm thick rubber, which probably makes most the
difference. He certainly hasn't commuted through the post industrial wasteland on an everyday basis.
Wet glass may cut many things, but you can reduce your chances with non racing tyres.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>above, some less so "rim rigidity makes no difference", "spokes are

never

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>broken by drive torque" (maybe true with skinny racers, but 2 nonskinny people on a tandem...
>with 16% hills? might make a difference to the analysis! ).
Nope because drive torqs a very small fraction of spok load hub flange would brake 1st did U
read the book????????? duh. JumpZkid

You write like that you look like some dumb troll, or a 13 year old.

He does, but he looks like a 13 yo who's _read_ The Bicycle Wheel. Doubling or even tripling drive
torque would still leave it a fraction of spoke load.

If you are talking about bad pedalling styles and low gears you can make it very much higher than
doubling or tripling. However, the example I am thinking was comparing front to rear, the ability to
make back spokes go through bigger cycles of loading changes will make a difference - even if we are
still at fractions of the actual tension on the spoke.

Would you like to quote the actual calculations? Or do I have to line his pockets just to disagree?
In brief, which of the concepts I mention show immediately that I have missed the boat?

On 11 Mar 2003 13:02:58 +0000 (GMT), David Damerell scrawled: ) What Brandt says is that wet glass
will cut anything, Kevlar strips or ) not. He's right.

From a pedant that's a bit of a generalization. I certainly wouldn't want to play a game of
scissors-paper-stone-glass with you based on that particular rule set. Not that I imagine you're
asking. What? Oh, go on, then. Stone. Stone. Paper. Scissors.... Hang on. Have you been practising?

J-P
--
Choose your companions carefully, you may have to eat them....

"W K" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Would you like to quote the actual calculations? Or do I have to line his pockets just to
disagree?

Err... I thought you said you'd already read it.

--
Dave...