Question on Bunch Riding

Andrew Swan said:

- what can I do about it (assuming I'm not allowed in the
lower grade and would get rapidly dropped by the higher
grade)?

jt10000.comstayingup.htmOpen ↗

JT

"Andrew Swan" wrote ...

Quoted message said:

So my questions are:
- how normal does this sound? Are there bunches like this
everywhere?

Not surprising, but not "normal." No, they're not
everywhere.

Quoted message said:

- why does it happen in this one grade and not the ones
above and below it (esp. considering the lower one goes
almost as fast)?

The one above is probably better skilled racers and the one
below probably has more cautious recreational riders.

Quoted message said:

- what can I do about it (assuming I'm not allowed in the
lower grade and would get rapidly dropped by the higher
grade)?

Next time out, hang near the back and get a feel for who's
who, i.e., who you want to avoid and who you can trust. Work
on your own bike handling skills.

Quoted message said:

- what can/should the club or the commissaires do to
make this bunch safer, if it's as dangerous as I've
been told?

They may be aware of it and not motivated to do much about
it. Find someone near the top of the club, an officer for
example, and get a feel from him/her about their awareness
of the issue and desire to do anything about
it.

JF

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Andrew Swan said:

- what can I do about it (assuming I'm not allowed in the
lower grade and would get rapidly dropped by the higher
grade)?

jt10000.comstayingup.htmOpen ↗

JT

That's a good article, John. Many good points.

--
tanx, Howard

Q: Why did the metalhead cross the road?
R: Because he's a gullible moron who'll buy
anything with a skull on it.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Jim Flom wrote: <some stuff snipped..>

Quoted message said:

Next time out, hang near the back and get a feel for who's
who, i.e., who you want to avoid and who you can trust.
Work on your own bike handling skills.

Did I read that right ......??

Did you just advise someone to stay near the back in bunch
racing.......??

amazing....

Phillip.

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 09:55:23 +0000, Phillip Johnson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Did you just advise someone to stay near the back in bunch
racing.......??

It's safer than the middle for sure.

JT

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Phillip Johnson said:

Did you just advise someone to stay near the back in bunch
racing.......??

It's safer than the middle for sure.

JT

it safer 200m behind the bunch .... but not a good idea.

If a rider is inexperienced and moving up a category they
are likely to find the accordion effect and increased stop /
start "feedback" pretty demanding... and tiredness must also
be a safety factor??.

Phillip.

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:22:56 +0000, Phillip Johnson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

it safer 200m behind the bunch .... but not a good idea.

No one said "behind the bunch" -- the advice was to ride
near the back or at the back which is not the same.

Quoted message said:

If a rider is inexperienced and moving up a category they
are likely to find the accordion effect and increased stop
/ start "feedback" pretty demanding... and tiredness must
also be a safety factor??.

That's pretty simplistic. There are times when riding at the
back of the bunch is easy and appropriate and not every race
has an accordian effect. If the choice for beginner is the
middle or the back and the race is full of crashes and there
are not a lot of corners, it's definitely worth considering
the back of the field. Things will be thinned out.

JT

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Phillip Johnson said:

it safer 200m behind the bunch .... but not a good idea.

No one said "behind the bunch" -- the advice was to ride
near the back or at the back which is not the same.

Quoted message said:

If a rider is inexperienced and moving up a category they
are likely to find the accordion effect and increased stop
/ start "feedback" pretty demanding... and tiredness must
also be a safety factor??.

That's pretty simplistic. There are times when riding at
the back of the bunch is easy and appropriate and not
every race has an accordian effect. If the choice for
beginner is the middle or the back and the race is full of
crashes and there are not a lot of corners, it's
definitely worth considering the back of the field. Things
will be thinned out.

JT

OK , I can agree with that, however from my own personal
experience it took a lot of conviction for me to learn
how to fight my way to the front and that was with the
belief that the back was the last place I wanted to be .
If I'd have had someone telling me " it's safer at the
back" I don't know if I'd have managed to overcome my
fear of the middle to have the gumption to struggle to a
place in the teens....

As far as learning the handling skills ( not your point I
know..) goes I always found that the proximity was not the
biggest problem ,... but moving forward amongst such close
proximity into seemingly non existent gaps which required
getting used to ....

Phillip.

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 13:22:56 +0000, Phillip Johnson
<[email hidden]> wrote:

That's pretty simplistic. There are times when riding at
the back of the bunch is easy and appropriate and not
every race has an accordian effect. If the choice for
beginner is the middle or the back and the race is full of
crashes and there are not a lot of corners, it's
definitely worth considering the back of the field. Things
will be thinned out.

It's not easy to sit on in the course in question: it's
nearly always very windy + 8 corners in 2km. The accordion
effect isn't that big, except for the uphill U-turn coming
onto the main straight, but if you're sitting on the back
you'll be in the gutter for most of the race. If there's no
wind it's ok, but that's rare.

For Andrew, I guess the other option is to sit at the front
- at least no-one will come around you so you can dictate
the pace of the race ;-) When you get fitter, you can go
hard in the crosswinds and make life generally miserable.
And beyond that, you'll eventually get fit enough to pull of
a solo win or two. Then you can move up a grade, where the
racing is a bit more positive.

I hate negative racing too, especially because I can't
sprint well enough to win. Fortunately there's enough like
minded folks in A grade to keep it interesting and
aggressive.

cheers, Jeff

"John Forrest Tomlinson" wrote ...

Quoted message said:

No one said "behind the bunch" -- the advice was to ride
near the back or at the back which is not the same.

I probably should have added, "... and near the outside for
an escape route" to my original post. Point taken.

JF

Phillip Johnson <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<c375j9

Quoted message said:

from my own personal experience it took a lot of
conviction for me to learn how to fight my way to the
front and that was with the belief that the back was the
last place I wanted to be.

Yeah, it's true that it can be hard to get to the front.
This all depends on the race of course, but a lot of times
it's brutal getting to the front early in the race when
everyone is fresh and feisty, and a lot easier when people
are tired and the field is smaller. It's not easy for a
beginner to do, but if he/she can go into the race with the
goal of looking around, not getting dropped, and learning
how to get to the front from time to time (not all the
time), the race can be a great learning experience.

JT

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phillip Johnson <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<c375j9

Quoted message said:

from my own personal experience it took a lot of
conviction for me to learn how to fight my way to the
front and that was with the belief that the back was the
last place I wanted to be.

Yeah, it's true that it can be hard to get to the
front. This

all

Quoted message said:

depends on the race of course, but a lot of times
it's brutal

getting

Quoted message said:

to the front early in the race when everyone is fresh and

feisty, and

Quoted message said:

a lot easier when people are tired and the field is
smaller.

It's not

Quoted message said:

easy for a beginner to do, but if he/she can go into
the race

with the

Quoted message said:

goal of looking around, not getting dropped, and
learning how

to get

Quoted message said:

to the front from time to time (not all the time), the
race can

be a

Quoted message said:

great learning experience.

The problem is that if you are at the back at the beginning
of the race when everyone is fresh, that is when you get
accordioned or gapped behind someone else when the crunch
comes. You also get stuck behind the inevitable back of the
pack crashes. I would stay in the top third during the chaff-
shaking and then maybe go to the back after things settled
down, assuming that I was just interested in finishing and
not doing much else. Of course, stay away from known
squirrells and don't be one. -- Jay Beattie.

"Jim Flom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:YMG5c.7143$vh1.6250@clgrps13...

Quoted message said:

"John Forrest Tomlinson" wrote ...

Quoted message said:

No one said "behind the bunch" -- the advice was to ride
near the back or at the back which is not the same.

I probably should have added, "... and near the outside
for an escape

route"

Quoted message said:

to my original post. Point taken.

JF

I am definately the self proclaimed bonafied expert at
riding at the back of the field. Anyone that has seen me
race has seen me at the back. [censored] Ring was so used to it he
used to joke about it over the PA system. There is a "way"
to do and you need to know when to do it and when not to.
For me, and yes it depends on the race and category, I
usually use the very back of the field to "roll" the corners
and not have to slam the breaks and sprint out from a dead
stop or worry about some goofball sliding through and
getting in the way in the corner. You also have to worry
about weak riders that open gaps so you have to be a alert
not to get on a "bad" wheel. I am talking about "higher"
category and Master's races.

In lower category races, the problem is that generally from
mid pack back everyone is slamming on their breaks and
causing the huge accordian affect. This is not the place
where you want to ride the back of the pack as it is likely
the accordian will snap well above where you are in the
field and you will have no chance of staying in the race.
In the lower category races, I think it makes sense to not
be at the immediate front but just at the back of where all
the action is...it's often to hard to fight for the front
third so just at the front of the second third of the pack
seems like the best place to "stay". This is where I would
try to be in really tough criteriums that have major
attrition ratios, etc.

Just my 02 cents!

Danny Callen ..Fattie Master

"Phillip Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Quoted message said:

If a rider is inexperienced and moving up a category
they are likely to find the accordion effect and
increased stop / start "feedback" pretty demanding...
and tiredness must also be a safety factor??.

That's pretty simplistic. There are times when riding at
the back of the bunch is easy and appropriate and not
every race has an accordian effect. If the choice for
beginner is the middle or the back and the race is full
of crashes and there are not a lot of corners, it's
definitely worth considering the back of the field.
Things will be thinned out.

JT

OK , I can agree with that, however from my own personal
experience it took a lot of conviction for me to learn how
to fight my way to the front and that was with the belief
that the back was the last place I wanted to be . If I'd
have had someone telling me " it's safer at the back" I
don't know if I'd have managed to overcome my fear of the
middle to have the gumption to struggle to a place in the
teens....

I've been experiencing much the same; in preparation for
Redlands, I've been racing with the cat-3 men, in fields of
80 or more. Last weekend, I got stuck in the back after a
bad start, and never saw the front half of the pack!
Believe me, I tried to search out every possible gap, but
something would always happen to pop me into the back
again. Something I need to work on, for sure. I figured out
that when the pack started stringing out and I had the
chance to move up, that was precisely when I was struggling
to hang on, and didn't have the power to get to the front.
Having to sprint out of every corner sure didn't help with
the power conservation. Unfortunately, there were no real
hills to break things up. So I played the yo-yo game for 60
miles, hanging in, but working WAY too hard. Conversely, a
(female) friend managed to start-and stay- in the front the
entire race, and even though I am probably somewhat
stronger, she seemed to have a much easier race. Some guys,
otoh, were able to go from the front to the back, to the
front again at will.

I now have to do the same thing in a field of 112 at
Redlands. Any suggestions?

Suz

As far as learning the handling skills ( not your point I
know..) goes I

Quoted message said:

always found that the proximity was not the biggest
problem ,... but moving forward amongst such close
proximity into seemingly non existent gaps which required
getting used to ....

Phillip.

Jeff Jones said:

It's not easy to sit on in the course in question: it's
nearly always very windy + 8 corners in 2km. The accordion
effect isn't that big, except for the uphill U-turn coming
onto the main straight, but if you're sitting on the back
you'll be in the gutter for most of the race. If there's
no wind it's ok, but that's rare.

For Andrew, I guess the other option is to sit at the
front - at least no-one will come around you so you can
dictate the pace of the race ;-)

<snip>

Quoted message said:

cheers, Jeff

Funny you should suggest that Jeff, that's what I did for
the first few laps yesterday - my thinking was that if I
could go to the front and set a reasonable pace from the
start, other like-minded riders might be prepared to work
with me, and even if we couldn't go clear, the higher pace
might drop a few of the weaker riders or failing that, at
least keep the bunch somewhat strung out and therefore
safer. Once the pace was established, I let myself drop down
the field (of about 20 riders) so that others could take
over the workload and I could recover a bit for the second
half of the race.

I guess the fact that the wind (a light southerly down the
S/F straight) wasn't too strong meant that the pace stayed
relatively high (for this grade anyway) and the bunch
didn't often squash right up like it did the previous race.
As a newcomer, I was glad to hold onto the bunch all the
way (until the last lap when I was on the wrong side of a
gap), and ended up 8th. At least I kept the rubber side
down this time! :-)

&roo