Broken stem, the sequel?

Here's another one:

cpsc.gov02228.htmlOpen ↗

That's three different stems, by three different
manufacturers, all suffering the same type of failure,
the handlebars falling off! And all have the same in
common with mine: Two bolts holding a face plate onto a
vertical surface!

"May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear
for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

Chris Zacho The Wheelman said:

Here's another one:

cpsc.gov02228.htmlOpen ↗

That's three different stems, by three different
manufacturers, all suffering the same type of failure, the
handlebars falling off! And all have the same in common
with mine: Two bolts holding a face plate onto a vertical
surface!

So. Just because manufacturers built a product before they
understood that product doesn't mean there is an inherent
problem with the design.

Greg

Chris Zacho The Wheelman said:

From: [email hidden] (G.T.)

Quoted message said:

So. Just because manufacturers built a product before they
understood that product doesn't mean there is an inherent
problem with the design.

Quoted message said:

Greg

So, You're saying that 3TTT and Profile Designs don't know
how to make handlebar stems? :-3)

No, I'm saying that they DIDN'T know how to make TWO-BOLT
stems. Please note the words in capitals.

Greg

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 01:22:18 GMT, "G.T." <[email hidden]> may

have said:

Chris Zacho The Wheelman said:

From: [email hidden] (G.T.)

Quoted message said:

So. Just because manufacturers built a product before
they understood that product doesn't mean there is an
inherent problem with the design.

Quoted message said:

Greg

So, You're saying that 3TTT and Profile Designs don't
know how to make handlebar stems? :-3)

No, I'm saying that they DIDN'T know how to make TWO-BOLT
stems. Please note the words in capitals.

Perhaps the problem is that there is no two-bolt design that
is as robust as one with four. Since three different
manufacturers have had the same kind of problem, I'd say
that there's enough of a pattern to say it's the design
itself, not its execution. One would be a random error; two
a concidence. Three is prudently regarded as a pattern until
proven otherwise.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

From: [email hidden] (G.T.)

Quoted message said:

So. Just because manufacturers built a product before they
understood that product doesn't mean there is an inherent
problem with the design.

Chris Zacho said:

So, You're saying that 3TTT and Profile Designs don't know
how to make handlebar stems? :-3)

Isn't that what you're saying? And I'm not disagreeing. One
of my favorite expressions is "They improved it until it
didn't work". I find many examples lately.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman said:

A couple of weeks ago I posted about my quill road
stem that stripped out at the handlebar clamp
(removeable face).

Quoted message said:

It seems I may not be the only one having trouble
after all...

Quoted message said:

cpsc.gov01044.htmlOpen ↗

Profile Stiffy. These broke at a weld, I believe. Their two-
boltness is not relevant.

Quoted message said:

cpsc.gov00192.htmlOpen ↗

Icon stems. These were recalled because the bolts broke (I
assume it was the bar clamp bolts). That's relevant, but it
suggests that the bolts were under-specified, either too
small or not a good enough steel.

This is important, but it doesn't suggest that the design
is intrinsically flawed, since most such stems have not
been recalled.

Also, both of these recalls are three years old.

If you are paranoid about your stem, get a Salsa. I'm sure
there's somebody out there that's broken a Salsa, too, but
what matters is the rate, and anecdotally that's low.

Werehatrack said:

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 01:22:18 GMT, "G.T."

may have said:

Chris Zacho The Wheelman said:

From: [email hidden] (G.T.)

>So. Just because manufacturers built a product before
>they understood that product doesn't mean there is an
>inherent problem with the design.

>Greg

So, You're saying that 3TTT and Profile Designs don't
know how to make handlebar stems? :-3)

No, I'm saying that they DIDN'T know how to make TWO-BOLT
stems. Please note the words in capitals.

Perhaps the problem is that there is no two-bolt design
that is as robust as one with four. Since three different
manufacturers have had the same kind of problem, I'd say
that there's enough of a pattern to say it's the design
itself, not its execution. One would be a random error;
two a concidence. Three is prudently regarded as a pattern
until proven otherwise.

So I should throw away my perfectly servicable Raceface two-
bolt stem and buy a four-bolt?

Greg

This is the 1st I've heard of this stuff happening to threadless stems, but is it coincidence or a flaw in the design like the original poster implied?

Perhaps it isn't the fact that its the 2 bolt design that is dangerous. Maybe it's because its that all 2 bolt vertical designs are what's dangerous.

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 03:37:55 GMT, "G.T." <[email hidden]> may

have said:

Werehatrack said:

Perhaps the problem is that there is no two-bolt design
that is as robust as one with four. Since three different
manufacturers have had the same kind of problem, I'd say
that there's enough of a pattern to say it's the design
itself, not its execution. One would be a random error;
two a concidence. Three is prudently regarded as a
pattern until proven otherwise.

So I should throw away my perfectly servicable Raceface two-
bolt stem and buy a four-bolt?

If you wish to panic, by all means. If you wish to be
rational about it, then take a moment periodically to
lightly stress the bars in a manner that will tend to cause
any incipient faliure to be visible, and see if either bolt
boss is showing signs of pulling away from the main body of
the stem. If they aren't, then I would be of the opinion
that it's perfectly safe to ride on wthout worry.

There probably are some two-bolt clamps which are
sufficiently well designed and made that their half life to
failure exceeds the probable life of the bike...but given
the fact that a pattern may be emerging, it is simply
prudent to be a bit more cautious until more data becomes
available. It may be that there really is no actual pattern,
or it may be that the entire problem is in the choice of
materials, or possibly the materials and the design both
contribute to the failures. Of course, given the lack of
details in the recall notices, it's quite possible that one
(or more) of the CPSC recalls does not derive from cap loss
at all. One of the stems has a design that looks (to me) tailor-
made for a failure at the point where the stem narrows near
the steerer clamp. Unfortunately, with their usual lack of
precision about the nature of the failure involved, the CPSC
has not provided enough information for a consumer to make
any kind of informed decision about the seriousness of the
alleged defects, or even to draw a real conclusion about the
nature of them.

Still, the potential for the interrelation merits a slightly
greater amount of diligence in occasional inspection of possibly-
similar units since if a failure there *does* occur, the
effects can be fairly nasty. If the cap stays on but loses
tension, it's possible that it will just be inconvenient. If
the failure is particularly ill-timed, of course, it can be
worse than that. Simply knowing that there *may* be a
problem does not reasonably predicate a scorched-earth
approach to addressing it, but it is equally unwise to
summarily dismiss the possibility that the problem may be
more global than has been disclosed to date.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On 13 Mar 2004 18:58:22 -0800, Benjamin Weiner <[email hidden]>

may have said:

If you are paranoid about your stem, get a Salsa. I'm sure
there's somebody out there that's broken a Salsa, too, but
what matters is the rate, and anecdotally that's low.

According to someone who I met while bashing through the
trails at a nearby park, if your riding style and loads
can break a Salsa, you have far more to worry about than
stem failure.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Chris Zacho The Wheelman said:

Here's another one:

cpsc.gov02228.htmlOpen ↗

That's three different stems, by three different
manufacturers, all suffering the same type of failure, the
handlebars falling off! And all have the same in common
with mine: Two bolts holding a face plate onto a vertical
surface!

Salsa have a design where the front clamp has a lip machined
into it which interlocks with a complementary one on the
stem. The lip takes most of the downwards force off the
bolts. They may have patented the design, but it shows
someone has thought about it.

From: [email hidden] (Benjamin=A0Weiner)

Quoted message said:

If you are paranoid about your stem, get a Salsa. I'm sure
there's somebody out there that's broken a Salsa, too, but
what matters is the rate, and anecdotally that's low.

Not paranoid, At least not about stems (I don't believe
they're "out to get me" anyway. LOL). But I am still dubious
about the design. Yes four bolts makes sense. However, I
have My LBS looking into getting me a Cinelli "Frog". Very
light, stiff, and with three bolts holding the retaining cap
on the top, not the front.

Problem solved :-3)

"May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear
for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

"G.T." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chris Zacho The Wheelman said:

From: [email hidden] (G.T.)

Quoted message said:

So. Just because manufacturers built a product before
they understood that product doesn't mean there is an
inherent problem with the design.

Quoted message said:

Greg

So, You're saying that 3TTT and Profile Designs don't
know how to make handlebar stems? :-3)

No, I'm saying that they DIDN'T know how to make TWO-BOLT
stems. Please note the words in capitals.

Greg

I had a 3TTT stem that broke. It easily could have left me
dead or with serious injuries. That they are willing to
market such [censored] shows a callous disregard for my safety. I
will never under any circumstances buy another of their
products again, or a product made by any known business
associate of theirs.

American and Japanese components look better than ever to
me.

"Zog The Undeniable" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:40542588.0@entanet...

Quoted message said:

Chris Zacho The Wheelman said:

Here's another one:

cpsc.gov02228.htmlOpen ↗

That's three different stems, by three different
manufacturers, all suffering the same type of failure,
the handlebars falling off! And all have the same in
common with mine: Two bolts holding a face plate onto a
vertical surface!

Salsa have a design where the front clamp has a lip
machined into it which interlocks with a complementary one
on the stem. The lip takes most of the downwards force off
the bolts. They may have patented the design, but it shows
someone has thought about it.

I've been using one of these for over a year without
problem, and I'm a heavy rider. I replaced the Cinelli bars
I had with Nitto bars this weekend. In light of recent
threads, I took time to carefully examine the Salsa. It
looks as good as the day I first installed it. We need to be
able to trust folks who make our stems and bars. I believe
Salsa deserves that trust.

"Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
From: [email hidden] (Benjamin Weiner)

Quoted message said:

If you are paranoid about your stem, get a Salsa. I'm sure
there's somebody out there that's broken a Salsa, too, but
what matters is the rate, and anecdotally that's low.

Not paranoid, At least not about stems (I don't believe
they're "out to get me" anyway. LOL). But I am still dubious
about the design. Yes four bolts makes sense. However, I
have My LBS looking into getting me a Cinelli "Frog". Very
light, stiff, and with three bolts holding the retaining cap
on the top, not the front.

Problem solved :-3)

"May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear
for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗ FYI:
Cinelli, 3TTT, and Columbus are divisions of the same
company, so the Frog comes from the same folks who brought
us the fragile Mutant stem.

Chris Zacho The Wheelman said:

Problem solved :-3)

"May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear
for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

Off-topic, but I find your sig hard to distinguish from your
posts. Any chance I could convince you to delineate your
signature from the text of the message? For example, with a
couple of dashes followed by a space as shown below?

--
Dave dvt at psu dot edu

dvt said:

Chris Zacho The Wheelman said:

Problem solved :-3)

"May you have the wind at your back. And a really low
gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

Off-topic, but I find your sig hard to distinguish from
your posts. Any chance I could convince you to delineate
your signature from the text of the message? For
example, with a couple of dashes followed by a space as
shown below?

And which proper newsreaders ignore during replies when
done that way.

Greg

Chris Zacho The Wheelman said:

From: [email hidden] (dvt)

Quoted message said:

Off-topic, but I find your sig hard to distinguish from
your posts. Any chance I could convince you to delineate
your signature from the text of the message? For
example, with a couple of dashes followed by a space as
shown below?
--
Dave dvt at psu dot edu

Sure. How's this?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear
for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

Much more readable. Thank you.

I learned something recently, which was also pointed out by
G.T. in this thread. If you include the string "-- ", many
newsreaders will recognize that as the beginning of a
signature. When the reply button is pressed, the signature
is not included in the response. I find that handy.

Notice the space after the two dashes -- it's part of the
code. I don't know if the code needs to be at the start of
the line. The first sentence in this paragraph is a sort
of test; if that isn't recognized as the beginning of a
sig, the two dashes probably need to be at the beginning
of a line.

Sorry for the topic drift.

--
Dave dvt at psu dot edu

dvt said:

I learned something recently, which was also pointed out
by G.T. in this thread. If you include the string "-- ",
many newsreaders will recognize that as the beginning of a
signature. When the reply button is pressed, the signature
is not included in the response. I find that handy.

Notice the space after the two dashes -- it's part of the
code. I don't know if the code needs to be at the start of
the line. The first sentence in this paragraph is a sort
of test; if that isn't recognized as the beginning of a
sig, the two dashes probably need to be at the beginning
of a line.

Sorry for the topic drift.

No problem -- I learn something new every day! I wonder how
it deals with "--" used as an em dash...

Matt O.