body position

On 08 Mar 2004 18:04:07 GMT, [email hidden]

(Skipthomp48) said:

I do concentrate on keep head still, looking straight down
(not ahead), chin against chest, etc. I have been told push
chest down, never really understood this. Do they mean
stomach, or upper body, ... ?

The original TI advice was to 'press your buoy', meaning to
push down the part of you that floats best, the air cavity
in your lungs, so that the rest of you would stay more
horizontal. Now they say, "lean on your chest until your
hips float to the surface ...".

The challenge is to maintain this horizontal balance while
you perform all the parts of the stroke. Many people go off
balance as they recover, or as they breathe.

Quoted message said:

When I use bouy between legs I fell that I am definitely
higher in the water.

Well then you aren't getting your hips up, yet.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

If you want to keep your feet up, arch your back and point
your toes back like a ballet dancer, not to the bottom of
the pool. If you arch your back, it will pull against your
hamstrings, lifting your legs and feet.

Andres

Donal Fagan <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On 08 Mar 2004 18:04:07 GMT, [email hidden]

(Skipthomp48) said:

I do concentrate on keep head still, looking straight
down (not ahead), chin against chest, etc. I have been
told push chest down, never really understood this. Do
they mean stomach, or upper body, ... ?

The original TI advice was to 'press your buoy', meaning
to push down the part of you that floats best, the air
cavity in your lungs, so that the

Quoted message said:

rest of you would stay more horizontal. Now they say,
"lean on your chest until your hips float to the
surface ...".

The challenge is to maintain this horizontal balance while
you perform all the parts of the stroke. Many people go
off balance as they recover, or as they breathe.

Quoted message said:

When I use bouy between legs I fell that I am definitely
higher in the water.

Well then you aren't getting your hips up, yet.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

"Skipthomp48" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Swim work out yesterday, shared lane with an ex-coach. I
commented on his great technique, he stated mine not bad.
However, he stated I could

improve

Quoted message said:

body position. "Yours not that bad, just need a little
improvement" No

time

Quoted message said:

for his suggestions, so will seek some from the
experts here.

I do concentrate on keep head still, looking straight down
(not ahead),

chin

Quoted message said:

against chest, etc. I have been told push chest down,
never really

understood

Quoted message said:

this. Do they mean stomach, or upper body, Or is this
bad advise?

When I use bouy between legs I fell that I am definitely
higher in the

water.

Coaches often say Press your "Tee" in the water.. if a human
figure was standing straight up, your shoulders and your
torso would make a "T" press the top part of the tee (upper
chest and shoulders) Head in the neutral position, somewhere
in between looking down and looking ahead. My coach says
water line should be somewhere around the hairline. Not at
your eyebrows, not at the top of your head.

As you press your tee in the water and keeps your abs stiff,
keep your core muscles tight, your legs should pop up more.

On 8 Mar 2004 19:42:03 -0800, [email hidden]

(andres muro) said:

If you want to keep your feet up, arch your back and point
your toes back like a ballet dancer, not to the bottom of
the pool. If you arch your back, it will pull against your
hamstrings, lifting your legs and feet.

Momentarily.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

Donal Fagan <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On 8 Mar 2004 19:42:03 -0800, [email hidden] (andres

muro) said:

If you want to keep your feet up, arch your back and
point your toes back like a ballet dancer, not to the
bottom of the pool. If you arch your back, it will pull
against your hamstrings, lifting your legs and feet.

Momentarily.

Permanently?

;-)

PS: Where is Larry when I need him

Quoted message said:

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

what if your hair line IS on top of your head?

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:IXd3c.147$Nj.7@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

"Skipthomp48" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040308130407.20313.00001096@mb-
m27.aol.com...

Quoted message said:

Swim work out yesterday, shared lane with an ex-coach. I
commented on

his

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

great technique, he stated mine not bad. However, he
stated I could

improve

Quoted message said:

body position. "Yours not that bad, just need a little
improvement" No

time

Quoted message said:

for his suggestions, so will seek some from the
experts here.

I do concentrate on keep head still, looking straight
down (not ahead),

chin

Quoted message said:

against chest, etc. I have been told push chest down,
never really

understood

Quoted message said:

this. Do they mean stomach, or upper body, Or is this
bad advise?

When I use bouy between legs I fell that I am definitely
higher in the

water.

Coaches often say Press your "Tee" in the water.. if a
human figure was standing straight up, your shoulders and
your torso would make a "T" press the top part of the tee
(upper chest and shoulders) Head in the neutral position,
somewhere in between looking down and

looking

Quoted message said:

ahead. My coach says water line should be somewhere
around the hairline. Not at your eyebrows, not at the top
of your head.

As you press your tee in the water and keeps your abs
stiff, keep your

core

Quoted message said:

muscles tight, your legs should pop up more.

what if you don't have a hair line? will you drown? or do
you wear a snorkel

what if your hair line is on your chin (goatee)? do you get
to swim with your head over water like a water polo player?

BTW, do you want to become a great swimmer? join the local
waterpolo team.

I did that once, and I was young and in good shape..I
thought!!!

Andres

"oscargrouch" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:<[email hidden]-
berlin.de>...

Quoted message said:

what if your hair line IS on top of your head?

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:IXd3c.147$Nj.7@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

"Skipthomp48" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040308130407.20313.00001096@mb-
m27.aol.com...

Quoted message said:

Swim work out yesterday, shared lane with an ex-coach.
I commented on

his

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

great technique, he stated mine not bad. However, he
stated I could

improve

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

body position. "Yours not that bad, just need a little
improvement" No

time

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for his suggestions, so will seek some from the
experts here.

I do concentrate on keep head still, looking straight
down (not ahead),

chin

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

against chest, etc. I have been told push chest down,
never really

understood

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this. Do they mean stomach, or upper body, Or is this
bad advise?

When I use bouy between legs I fell that I am
definitely higher in the

water.

Coaches often say Press your "Tee" in the water.. if a
human figure was standing straight up, your shoulders
and your torso would make a "T" press the top part of
the tee (upper chest and shoulders) Head in the neutral
position, somewhere in between looking down and

looking

Quoted message said:

ahead. My coach says water line should be somewhere
around the hairline. Not at your eyebrows, not at the
top of your head.

As you press your tee in the water and keeps your abs
stiff, keep your

core

Quoted message said:

muscles tight, your legs should pop up more.

In article
<[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

what if you don't have a hair line? will you drown? or do
you wear a snorkel

what if your hair line is on your chin (goatee)? do
you get to swim with your head over water like a water
polo player?

BTW, do you want to become a great swimmer? join the local
waterpolo team.

I did that once, and I was young and in good shape..I
thought!!!

Truer words were never spoken... er, written. The water polo
season always had a huge impact on getting me jump started
for the college swimming season, particularly if I wasn't
able to work out all summer. I was a terrible water polo
player though... the sad truth is that conditioning is no
replacement for ball handling skills :-).

- Al

We've had this conversation many times before. I pulled the
following off the web to illustrate where the "brain-trust"
of swimming lies on the matter.

www.svl.ch/Posture/

The quote from Richard Quick, many time Olympic coach,
regarding the matter, and pictures to go along with it, is
as follows:

"The characteristics of high resistance posture are high
head position (looking forward when swimming) and arch of
the lower back (lordosis). Keep your head in the same line
as the spine."

I'm not sure how he backs that statement up. Does anybody
know of swimming flume data to substantiate that claim?

Certainly the video data appears to overwhelmingly show
elite swimmers with head up, often looking down the pool,
and butts at the surface as well from a prominant lower back
arch. So I don't know what Richard Quick is looking at.

I certainly hope he's not just embracing the theory du jour
of swimming as promoted by TI and others, and actually has
done some research into the matter himself.

Eric

[email hidden] (andres muro) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Donal Fagan <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On 8 Mar 2004 19:42:03 -0800, [email hidden] (andres

muro) said:

If you want to keep your feet up, arch your back and
point your toes back like a ballet dancer, not to the
bottom of the pool. If you arch your back, it will pull
against your hamstrings, lifting your legs and feet.

Momentarily.

Permanently?

;-)

PS: Where is Larry when I need him

"4precious" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

We've had this conversation many times before. I pulled
the following off the web to illustrate where the "brain-
trust" of swimming lies on the matter.

www.svl.ch/Posture/

Oh yes, I've seen this article before. I don't think anyone
would dispute that a streamlined missile is more slippery
than a missile with their head up. Unfortunately, Richard
Quick doesn't seem to be taking into consideration the
enormous elements that are most responsible for speed; that
is the biomechanical ability to more powerfully produce
momentum through leveraged propulsion techniques that are
better performed with a military posture and head in a more
upright position. Perhaps I should write Mr. Quick a very
nice tactful letter offering to take over his coaching
duties at Stanford?

John Cobb is Triathlon's acknowledged bike fitting guru who
spends hours performing wind testing with time trial riders
in their most aerodynamic bike positions. Even he
acknowledges that the most aerodynamic positions are not
always the fastest. Otherwise, a time trial bicyclist would
be too restricted to pedal with any kind of force, while
they certainly would not be able to see ahead with their
heads more aerodynamically facing down while wearing a
pointy helmet. Cobb generally works with cyclist by
constantly trading off a little more aerodynamic positioning
for a more powerful stance that will overcome the
encumbering drag that is added in order to produce said
power in the first place. Their are certainly exceptions to
cyclist ability to go extremely aggressive (more slippery)
but the trade off is nearly always the cyclists ability to
maintain enough physical leverage to receive the added
benefit of less drag.

There is nothing machined to propel a swimmer, therefore,
swimmers are more dependent on their own ability to create
as much leverage as possible in order to produce propulsion.
In my opinion, any added element of speed with head down
that produces a more slippery swimmer is outweighed by the
more powerful leverage gained with the head in a more
upright position. In other words, most swimmers who swim
well with their heads down can probably do it better and
with less shoulder impingement with their heads more
upright. Try the superman test,,,,,again.

When I swim with head down, I find that the glide faze is
quickly terminated by my need to immediately manipulate my
hand and elbow to a point of best leverage,"over the
barrel", which is further below the surface to better
position for pushing water backwards in order to create the
most speed. Brook Bennet is an excellent extreme example of
head down. She immediately shoves her hand down to the point
"over the barrel" to gain the most power with no
manipulation or sculling from the surface. If I take the
longer uninterrupted glide and try to pull from the surface
or close to the surface, my shoulders and lower back will
start to object with a vengeance. Just raising the head (not
too much or my back hurts again) makes a huge difference
while allowing for a longer leveraged stroke phase. However,
my personal body type still prefers a shorter stroke phase
more similar to Bennet but not as much kayaking but with
similar two beat kick.

Rick Swanger

It is amazing to me how people can come up with theories w/o being
able to back them up. It is like an infomertial. Nice sleek but not
grounded in fact. The chest cannot be pushed down unless you do one of
two things:

1. you bend at the waist 2 you arch your back.

If you bend at the waist you end up with the position at the
left of the picture with the woman with her torso sinking
and her legs sinking. I fyou bend slightly, you end up with
the middle position. The only other way to push the chest
slightly down is to arch your back.

I invite anyone here to stand up straight and move the chest
forward by itself. The chest will not go anywhere. If you
lean slightly the chest will come forward. However, the
position that you end with is not the position that you want
in swimming. If you do this in the water, the chest will not
sink deeper and the legs will come up. This is totally
absurd. The chest will tend to float, especially for women
because breast will want to float (positive bouyancy). Also,
because the chest is a large flat surface it will want to
float because it will have a harder time breaking the
surface tension of the water than the legs. The water wants
to bring the chest to the surface just as it wants to bring
a flat piece of wood to the surface. Feet and lower legs
will want to sink because they have negative bouyancy and
because they don't have a flat profile like the chest.

The other way to bring the chest forward while standing, is
to arch your back. This motion appears to push the chest
forward, but what it is really doing is to pull against the
hamstring muscles. When you apply this to the pool you end
up looking like a normal swimmer. The legs will float, not
because your are bringing the chest down causing the
opposite to come up. They will float, because the hamstring
muscles will prevent them from sinking.

Good posture in the water is with the toes pointing back,
legs straight with no bend at the knees, and arched back.
You don't need to do a backbend, become a gymanst or
immitate Kristie Philips, but you need to, minimally, keep
the normal curvature of the spine in the water.

Some people drag their legs because they are slouchers and
they slouch in the water too. As far as your head, you can
do what you want to with it. The resistance that you
generate from looking slighlty forward vs straight down is
minimal if you take into account that you are also
breathing and breaking the water in front of you. It
doesn/t matter if your hairline breaks the surface an inch
below or above it. there are no swimmers whose heads are
completely sunk under water.

Andres

[email hidden] (4precious) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

We've had this conversation many times before. I pulled
the following off the web to illustrate where the "brain-
trust" of swimming lies on the matter.

www.svl.ch/Posture/

The quote from Richard Quick, many time Olympic coach,
regarding the matter, and pictures to go along with it, is
as follows:

"The characteristics of high resistance posture are high
head position (looking forward when swimming) and arch of
the lower back (lordosis). Keep your head in the same line
as the spine."

I'm not sure how he backs that statement up. Does anybody
know of swimming flume data to substantiate that claim?

Certainly the video data appears to overwhelmingly show
elite swimmers with head up, often looking down the
pool, and butts at the surface as well from a prominant
lower back arch. So I don't know what Richard Quick is
looking at.

I certainly hope he's not just embracing the theory du
jour of swimming as promoted by TI and others, and
actually has done some research into the matter himself.

Eric

[email hidden] (andres muro) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Donal Fagan <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

On 8 Mar 2004 19:42:03 -0800, [email hidden]
(andres muro) wrote:

>If you want to keep your feet up, arch your back and
>point your toes back like a ballet dancer, not to the
>bottom of the pool. If you arch your back, it will
>pull against your hamstrings, lifting your legs and
>feet.

Momentarily.

Permanently?

;-)

PS: Where is Larry when I need him

In message
<[email hidden]>, Swanger
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

"4precious" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

We've had this conversation many times before. I pulled
the following off the web to illustrate where the "brain-
trust" of swimming lies on the matter.

www.svl.ch/Posture/

Oh yes, I've seen this article before. I don't think anyone
would dispute that a streamlined missile is more slippery
than a missile with their head up. Unfortunately, Richard
Quick doesn't seem to be taking into consideration the
enormous elements that are most responsible for speed; that
is the biomechanical ability to more powerfully produce
momentum through leveraged propulsion techniques that are
better performed with a military posture and head in a more
upright position. Perhaps I should write Mr. Quick a very
nice tactful letter offering to take over his coaching
duties at Stanford?

Yes except that the influence of drag on swimming speed goes
like the cube of the influence of grip and the square of the
influence of propulsive force.

So it little bit of drag reduction is worth an awful lot of
grip or leverage.

Quoted message said:

John Cobb is Triathlon's acknowledged bike fitting guru who
spends hours performing wind testing with time trial riders
in their most aerodynamic bike positions. Even he
acknowledges that the most aerodynamic positions are not
always the fastest. Otherwise, a time trial bicyclist would
be too restricted to pedal with any kind of force, while
they certainly would not be able to see ahead with their
heads more aerodynamically facing down while wearing a
pointy helmet. Cobb generally works with cyclist by
constantly trading off a little more aerodynamic
positioning for a more powerful stance that will overcome
the encumbering drag that is added in order to produce said
power in the first place. Their are certainly exceptions to
cyclist ability to go extremely aggressive (more slippery)
but the trade off is nearly always the cyclists ability to
maintain enough physical leverage to receive the added
benefit of less drag.

Yes but cycling is different because a cyclist has leverage
against a solid object (the ground) whereas a swimmer is
only pushing against the water.

In addition water is much denser than air and hence
resistance is relatively more important.

Plus cyclists in some competitions have to negotiate
hills etc.

Quoted message said:

There is nothing machined to propel a swimmer, therefore,
swimmers are more dependent on their own ability to create
as much leverage as possible in order to produce
propulsion. In my opinion, any added element of speed with
head down that produces a more slippery swimmer is
outweighed by the more powerful leverage gained with the
head in a more upright position. In other words, most
swimmers who swim well with their heads down can probably
do it better and with less shoulder impingement with their
heads more upright. Try the superman test,,,,,again.

Quoted message said:

When I swim with head down, I find that the glide faze is
quickly terminated by my need to immediately manipulate my
hand and elbow to a point of best leverage,"over the
barrel", which is further below the surface to better
position for pushing water backwards in order to create the
most speed. Brook Bennet is an excellent extreme example of
head down. She immediately shoves her hand down to the
point "over the barrel" to gain the most power with no
manipulation or sculling from the surface. If I take the
longer uninterrupted glide and try to pull from the surface
or close to the surface, my shoulders and lower back will
start to object with a vengeance. Just raising the head
(not too much or my back hurts again) makes a huge
difference while allowing for a longer leveraged stroke
phase. However, my personal body type still prefers a
shorter stroke phase more similar to Bennet but not as much
kayaking but with similar two beat kick.

Our feelings of what is right and wrong can be deceptive.
Perhaps there are other adjustments that could allow you to
take advantage of the lower drag from a lower head position
without shortening the glide.

Actually I suspect that what many swimmers think of as
increasing grip in the early part of the pull is actually
more to do with reducing drag. Looking at video of Ian
Thorpe today I noticed that for most of the stroke his hand
basically moves back at the same speed as his body moves
forward. (In fact in the early stages it is moving forward
relative to the water. However for a short period in the
middle of the stroke is moves backward sharply and
cavitation appears in front of his hand. I suspect that this
is the only propulsive part of the movement - the rest of it
is just to do with maintaining streamlining.
--
Richard Cant

In message
<[email hidden]>, andres
muro <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

The chest cannot be pushed down unless you do one of
two things:

1. you bend at the waist 2 you arch your back.

Actually neither of these things will do it either

Stick a nail into the back of a cork.

The cork will float nail down no matter how you angle it in
the cork or how rigidly you attach it. The same think will
happen if you replace the nail with something floppy and
heavy like a chain.

The things that will actually change the floating
position are:

Provide some upward force to the back of the nail (i.e. kick
your legs). This obviously costs energy.

Pull the cork through the water from the non-nail end. The
hydrodynamic lift that does this also costs energy
(induced drag).

Stick another nail in at the other end and angle the second
nail down enough to make sure that it is underwater if the
cork is flat. (I.e. keep your head below the surface.) This
is the only way that doesn't cost energy. I admit that you
will also need to have the first nail firmly attached (i.e.
no floppy spine) for this to work.

If you try to keep the second nail above water you will find
that it is unstable and wants to roll over.
--
Richard Cant

In message
<[email hidden]>, 4precious
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Certainly the video data appears to overwhelmingly show
elite swimmers with head up, often looking down the
pool, and butts at the surface as well from a prominant
lower back arch. So I don't know what Richard Quick is
looking at.

I think he is looking at Thorpe and Hackett See the analysis
linked to from the page you quoted:

svl.chCrawlAnalysisOpen ↗

--
Richard Cant

"Richard Cant" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In message
<[email hidden]>,
Swanger <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

"4precious" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

We've had this conversation many times before. I pulled
the following off the web to illustrate where the "brain-
trust" of swimming lies on the matter.

www.svl.ch/Posture/

Oh yes, I've seen this article before. I don't think
anyone would

dispute

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that a streamlined missile is more slippery than a
missile with their

head

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

up. Unfortunately, Richard Quick doesn't seem to be
taking into consideration the enormous elements that are
most responsible for speed; that is the biomechanical
ability to more powerfully produce momentum through
leveraged propulsion techniques that are better performed
with a military posture and head in a more upright
position. Perhaps I should write Mr. Quick a very nice
tactful letter offering to take over his coaching duties
at Stanford?

Yes except that the influence of drag on swimming speed
goes like the cube of the influence of grip and the square
of the influence of propulsive force.

So it little bit of drag reduction is worth an awful lot
of grip or leverage.

Quoted message said:

John Cobb is Triathlon's acknowledged bike fitting guru
who spends hours performing wind testing with time trial
riders in their most aerodynamic bike positions. Even he
acknowledges that the most aerodynamic positions are not
always the fastest. Otherwise, a time trial bicyclist
would be

too

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

restricted to pedal with any kind of force, while they
certainly would

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be able to see ahead with their heads more
aerodynamically facing down

while

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wearing a pointy helmet. Cobb generally works with
cyclist by

constantly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trading off a little more aerodynamic positioning for a
more powerful

stance

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that will overcome the encumbering drag that is added in
order to produce said power in the first place. Their are
certainly exceptions to

cyclist

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ability to go extremely aggressive (more slippery) but
the trade off is nearly always the cyclists ability to
maintain enough physical leverage

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

receive the added benefit of less drag.

Yes but cycling is different because a cyclist has
leverage against a solid object (the ground) whereas a
swimmer is only pushing against the water.

That explains why after 6 hours on the bike saddle my a$$
starts whistling Johnny Cash's "Ring of Fire".

Quoted message said:

In addition water is much denser than air and hence
resistance is relatively more important.

Plus cyclists in some competitions have to negotiate
hills etc.

Quoted message said:

There is nothing machined to propel a swimmer, therefore,
swimmers are

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dependent on their own ability to create as much leverage
as possible in order to produce propulsion. In my
opinion, any added element of speed with head down that
produces a more slippery swimmer is outweighed by the
more powerful leverage gained with the head in a more
upright position.

In

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

other words, most swimmers who swim well with their heads
down can

probably

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

do it better and with less shoulder impingement with
their heads more upright. Try the superman
test,,,,,again.

Quoted message said:

When I swim with head down, I find that the glide faze is
quickly

terminated

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

by my need to immediately manipulate my hand and elbow to
a point of best leverage,"over the barrel", which is
further below the surface to better position for pushing
water backwards in order to create the most speed. Brook
Bennet is an excellent extreme example of head down. She

immediately

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

shoves her hand down to the point "over the barrel" to
gain the most

power

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with no manipulation or sculling from the surface. If I
take the

longer

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

uninterrupted glide and try to pull from the surface or
close to the surface, my shoulders and lower back will
start to object with a

vengeance.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Just raising the head (not too much or my back hurts
again) makes a huge difference while allowing for a
longer leveraged stroke phase. However,

my

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

personal body type still prefers a shorter stroke phase
more similar to Bennet but not as much kayaking but with
similar two beat kick.

Our feelings of what is right and wrong can be deceptive.
Perhaps there are other adjustments that could allow you
to take advantage of the lower drag from a lower head
position without shortening the glide.

Actually I suspect that what many swimmers think of as
increasing grip in the early part of the pull is actually
more to do with reducing drag.

Try the superman experiment where you lie face down on your
bed. Push elbows out, hands down, now try to pull your
elbows straight under you,,,,once with your head down, once
with your head up. The leverage gained with head up really
makes a difference. (at least for me)

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Looking at video of Ian Thorpe today I noticed that for
most of the stroke his hand basically moves back at the
same speed as his body moves forward. (In fact in the
early stages it is moving forward relative to the water.
However for a short period in the middle of the stroke is
moves backward sharply and cavitation appears in front of
his hand. I suspect that this is the only propulsive part
of the movement - the rest of it is just to do with
maintaining streamlining.
--
Richard Cant

hen you have to get in touch with your inner child, and try
to remember where the hairline used to be.

"oscargrouch" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

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what if your hair line IS on top of your head?

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:IXd3c.147$Nj.7@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

"Skipthomp48" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040308130407.20313.00001096@mb-
m27.aol.com...

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Swim work out yesterday, shared lane with an ex-coach.
I commented on

his

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great technique, he stated mine not bad. However, he
stated I could

improve

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body position. "Yours not that bad, just need a little
improvement"

No

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time

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for his suggestions, so will seek some from the
experts here.

I do concentrate on keep head still, looking straight
down (not

ahead),

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chin

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against chest, etc. I have been told push chest down,
never really

understood

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this. Do they mean stomach, or upper body, Or is this
bad advise?

When I use bouy between legs I fell that I am
definitely higher in the

water.

Coaches often say Press your "Tee" in the water.. if a
human figure was standing straight up, your shoulders
and your

torso

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would make a "T" press the top part of the tee (upper
chest and shoulders) Head in the neutral position,
somewhere in between looking down and

looking

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ahead. My coach says water line should be somewhere
around the hairline. Not at your eyebrows, not at the
top of your head.

As you press your tee in the water and keeps your abs
stiff, keep your

core

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muscles tight, your legs should pop up more.

Skipthomp48 said:

However, he stated I could improve body position. "Yours
not that bad, just need a little improvement"

Sounds like you were swimming with Tarzan.

I wasn't going to bother posting this lame little joke until
it occurred to me that Johnny Weissmuller who played Tarzan
was also an olympic swimmer.

And now back to serious discussion...