Climbing Improvement

wow, you have stuck to your resolution, all positive.

I could make your list much easier for you. just one task to remember.

climb, climb, climb

its no secret that the columbians are typically the best climbers. because thats all they have to
ride on.....

Ken Papai said:

OK, here are some things I espouse and believe in and they are the first ten things that come to
my mind:

1. You'll never be a good climber with a triple-front chainring. Too easy to bailout and not get
stronger. Unless you're racing up the Angliru in Spain the triple is for tourists.

Ken -- you have at most 2/3 the power to mass of Armstrong. You stuck in your 24 is like Armstrong
always climbing in a 16.

I don't use a triple, but I do use a 27. A good mix of fast cadence
(90) and slow cadence (40's) climbing is, I believe, the way to maximize climbing at optimal
cadences (70-75).

Quoted message said:

3. Have an eye for the summit! When you see the summit coming up then shift down and think like a
racer and sprint, or go hard all the way to over the top! Drop your companions and go for a
little training day gold.

This is a good suggestion, I think, if you're not on a LSD ride. It's destructive if your goal is a
long ride near threshold.

Quoted message said:

6. Throw away that excess weight on your bag (too heavy or floppy saddle bags or stupid, welded
cheap wheels).

True for racing.

Quoted message said:

7. Think cool -- unzip your jersey and allow cool air to circulate as you
8. Pick a hill and climb it 3-4 times in a row -- each time in a bigger gear! Start with spinning
a 38x23 all the way to the top,

My bet is "spinning" to Ken means a cadence of at most 60.

Dan

"Ken Papai" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

OK, here are some things I espouse and believe in and they are the first ten things that come to
my mind:

<snip>

OK, whatever works for you...

Now, here's how you evaluate your climbing. Get yourself something to measure power. Go climb two
kinds of hills as hard as you can, one that lasts ten minutes or more and one that lasts about a
minute. Look at your average power over that time. If you cannot do at least ~5.0-5.5
Watts-per-kg-of-body-weight (W/kg) for the longer climb and ~6-7 W/kg for the short climb, you will
NOT be competitive in any hilly M35+ or P12 race in California. That includes at least the following
races: Boulevard, Pine Flat, San Luis Rey, Pozo, Acton, University, Berkeley Hills, Mt. Hamilton,
Devil's Punchbowl, Copperopolis, Wente, Corral Hollow, and Sea Otter.

Alternatively, if you're too cheap to buy a power device (like me), get a topo map and figure out
the elevation change of your hills. You better be able to climb at ~75 ft/minute elevation change
for the longer climbs and ~90-100 ft/minute for the shorter ones, otherwise you will be chasing the
first group down the other side.

BTW, if you're a good skinny little climber, it is humbling to discover that good kilo or pursuit
riders will beat you up most hills that last just a couple of minutes, even if they are big guys.
That's how much power they can put out.

Kurgan-Henry is 100% correct. If you want to be a bicycle **ROAD** racer, you better not have excess
fat and you better be able to see a lot of veins in your legs. Sorry to break the bad news to you.

Mark

"Ken Papai" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

8. Pick a hill and climb it 3-4 times in a row -- each time in a bigger gear! Start with spinning
a 38x23 all the way to the top, and maybe on

the

Quoted message said:

3rd or 4th climb do the whole thing in your 39x18 or 18. This is also

like

Quoted message said:

magic on improving your climbing (and WONDERS for your confidence). Find your style (masher or
spinner?) and try to stay with it.

8-a. With a 38-39 double you get to brag "I just did that climb in my big ring".

"Mark Fennell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ken Papai" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OK, here are some things I espouse and believe in and they are the first

ten

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

things that come to my mind:

<snip>

OK, whatever works for you...

Now, here's how you evaluate your climbing. Get yourself something to measure power. Go climb two
kinds of hills as hard as you can, one that lasts ten minutes or more and one that lasts about a
minute. Look at your average power over that time. If you cannot do at least ~5.0-5.5
Watts-per-kg-of-body-weight (W/kg) for the longer climb and ~6-7 W/kg for the short climb, you
will NOT be competitive in any hilly M35+ or P12 race in California. That includes at least the
following races: Boulevard, Pine Flat, San Luis Rey, Pozo, Acton, University, Berkeley Hills, Mt.
Hamilton, Devil's Punchbowl, Copperopolis, Wente, Corral Hollow, and Sea Otter.

Alternatively, if you're too cheap to buy a power device (like me), get a topo map and figure out
the elevation change of your hills. You better be able to climb at ~75 ft/minute elevation change
for the longer climbs and ~90-100 ft/minute for the shorter ones, otherwise you will be chasing
the first group down the other side.

BTW, if you're a good skinny little climber, it is humbling to discover that good kilo or pursuit
riders will beat you up most hills that last just a couple of minutes, even if they are big guys.
That's how much power they can put out.

Kurgan-Henry is 100% correct. If you want to be a bicycle **ROAD** racer, you better not have
excess fat and you better be able to see a lot of veins in your legs. Sorry to break the bad
news to you.

As much as it pains me to agree with Henry, I've come to the realization that you can either 1.
weigh too much and not do well in the road races, or
2. skip them for the flat crits and have a gut. I tend to fall into the latter category, but am
moving towards "Henry-ness." Now if only I had a cockatoo and a pony tail...

Mike "the Masters Fattie" Shaw I train enough to be a good 4, an OK 3, or a [censored]-poor 1/2...

Quoted message said:

Mark

"Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mark Fennell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Kurgan-Henry is 100% correct. If you want to be a bicycle **ROAD** racer, you better not have
excess fat and you better be able to see a lot of veins in your legs. Sorry to break the bad
news to you.

As much as it pains me to agree with Henry, I've come to the realization that you can either 1.
weigh too much and not do well in the road races,

or

Quoted message said:

2. skip them for the flat crits and have a gut. I tend to fall into the latter category, but am
moving towards "Henry-ness." Now if only I had a cockatoo and a pony tail...

Nice to see non-delusional racers for a change.

Less fat will also make one faster in a crit (less power required for acceleration out of turns,
cardio system more efficient), however, I think there is nothing the matter with carrying extra
weight if one is not interested in making the sacrifices necessary for maximizing performance.

What is wrong is claiming that it is not possible.

Kurgan Gringioni not making the sacrifices

Mark Fennell said:

Alternatively, if you're too cheap to buy a power device (like me), get a topo map and figure out
the elevation change of your hills. You better be able to climb at ~75 ft/minute elevation change
for the longer climbs and ~90-100 ft/minute for the shorter ones, otherwise you will be chasing
the first group down the other side.

Mark

So at 75ft/min, a typical time up Old LaHonda would be 17:12 (1290 ft elevation change). I find
this hard to believe since at a recent AV hillclimb event the BEST time was 17:40. OLH has an
average grade of
7.2%, what type of grade were you suggesting at 75'/min?

"VeloCat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Fennell said:

Alternatively, if you're too cheap to buy a power device (like me), get a topo map and figure
out the elevation change of your hills. You better be able to climb at ~75 ft/minute elevation
change for the longer climbs and ~90-100 ft/minute for the shorter ones, otherwise you will be
chasing the first group down the other side.

Mark

So at 75ft/min, a typical time up Old LaHonda would be 17:12 (1290 ft elevation change). I find
this hard to believe since at a recent AV hillclimb event the BEST time was 17:40. OLH has an
average grade of
7.2%, what type of grade were you suggesting at 75'/min?

I've never even seen OLH, but I think Mark got the power outputs pretty much spot-on. Perhaps the
race times are slower than expected (or his climbing rates in ft/min faster than expected) because
even at slow climbing speeds wind resistance still plays a small role.

Andy Coggan

"one of the six billion" <varuna....

Quoted message said:

"Ken Papai" <ken@@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...

Quoted message said:

8. Pick a hill and climb it 3-4 times in a row -- each time in a bigger gear! Start with
spinning a 38x23 all the way to the top, and maybe on

the

Quoted message said:

3rd or 4th climb do the whole thing in your 39x18 or 18. This is also

like

Quoted message said:

magic on improving your climbing (and WONDERS for your confidence). Find your style (masher or
spinner?) and try to stay with it.

8-a. With a 38-39 double you get to brag "I just did that climb in my big ring".

The 38 chainring was a typo. I have the typical 53-39 up front. 😉

(also, Mark Fennell's stuff was awesome)

-ken

VeloCat <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Mark Fennell said:

Alternatively, if you're too cheap to buy a power device (like me), get a topo map and figure
out the elevation change of your hills. You better be able to climb at ~75 ft/minute elevation
change for the longer climbs and ~90-100 ft/minute for the shorter ones, otherwise you will be
chasing the first group down the other side.

Mark

So at 75ft/min, a typical time up Old LaHonda would be 17:12 (1290 ft elevation change). I find
this hard to believe since at a recent AV hillclimb event the BEST time was 17:40. OLH has an
average grade of
7.2%, what type of grade were you suggesting at 75'/min?

That grade would be just fine and I'll stick with my numbers, at least for P12 and M35+ races. You
might want to ask some of the faster AV 1's, 2's, or M35+ (Kevin Merritt?) riders what time they do
up your hill because I bet they are a lot faster than that.

For fellow geeks interested in this stuff, check out today's PVSR hill climb results that should be
posted later tonight at:

scvelo.comresults.htmlOpen ↗

You'll have to adjust for the first km of flat road and another km of downhill, but it should be
interesting anyway. It's a relatively gradual climb of ~2400' but I still predict the top guys
will climb at

Quoted message said:

80 ft/minute.

Mark (sad to be missing the PVSR)

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Nice to see non-delusional racers for a change.

Less fat will also make one faster in a crit (less power required for acceleration out of turns,
cardio system more efficient), however, I think there is nothing the matter with carrying extra
weight if one is not interested in making the sacrifices necessary for maximizing performance.

I thought you would have noticed that most of Ken's advice is 'mental' and 'attitude' oriented.
As if thinking positive and pushing yourself when you're on the hill will make you a much
better climber.

Are these things more important than training in a way to specifically improve (or maximize) your
sustained power to weight ratio ? Some people seem to give them a lot more importance.

-Amit

Mark Fennell said:

That grade would be just fine and I'll stick with my numbers, at least for P12 and M35+ races. You
might want to ask some of the faster AV 1's, 2's, or M35+ (Kevin Merritt?) riders what time they
do up your hill because I bet they are a lot faster than that.

I think Kevin Susco did it in 16:40 a few years ago (I don't know his recent times), and he and
Kevin Merritt are probably the best climbers among the 45+ riders.

Gary Gellin and Tracy Colwell, both 35+, are low-16 minutes on the same climb.

I agree if you're not sub-17:30, you'll be chasing after climbs in hilly 35+ races.

Dan

Hi,

I'm going to be riding in the Mt. Washington bicycle hill climb this August in New Hampshire. Mt
Washington is 6,288' and the climb is about 5,000' in
7.6 miles. Average of 12% grade and one point is 22%. The record is by Tom Danialson of Saturn team
(49min 22 sec) which broke Tyle Hamiltons record. For this climb even the pro's use special
gearing... I've been training all this winter, strenght, and spinning for endurance. I'm down to
12% body fat, but should get down to 8 or 9 by August. But reguardless of gearing I have to work
on endurance, because that is what gets you up this mega mount climb!

"Ken Papai" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OK, here are some things I espouse and believe in and they are the first

ten

Quoted message said:

things that come to my mind:

1. You'll never be a good climber with a triple-front chainring. Too easy

to

Quoted message said:

bailout and not get stronger. Unless you're racing up the Angliru in Spain the triple is for
tourists.

2. Set goals for yourself. I do that every year and throughout the year on various hills around
here. "My goal is to climb that entirely in my 53x17, rather than my current 39x18." Also,
when you set that 53x17 goal is to speedily climb up -- not be a total masher to just say you
completed the goal.

3. Have an eye for the summit! When you see the summit coming up then

shift

Quoted message said:

down and think like a racer and sprint, or go hard all the way to over the top! Drop your
companions and go for a little training day gold.

4. Start easy and get into bigger gears by the top. A two-mile climb -- start in your 39x19 or
21, then eventually be in your 39x15 at the top.

THIS

Quoted message said:

is a key to improvement -- using bigger gears AS YOU GO UP (not smaller gears as you get tired).
(the 39x23 is only for wussy bail-out)

5. Be mental and focused. Be strong and determined. Act like you're a winner. Don't give up. You
know the pain will disappear at the summit

crest.

Quoted message said:

You want to improve and better than most. Pretend you'll be embarrassed if you fail -- think like
an egoist.

6. Throw away that excess weight on your bag (too heavy or floppy saddle bags or stupid, welded
cheap wheels).

7. Think cool -- unzip your jersey and allow cool air to circulate as you warm up as you climb.
Zip up at the top for the descent. Cooler means

more

Quoted message said:

efficient, less labored.

8. Pick a hill and climb it 3-4 times in a row -- each time in a bigger gear! Start with spinning
a 38x23 all the way to the top, and maybe on the 3rd or 4th climb do the whole thing in your
39x18 or 18. This is also like magic on improving your climbing (and WONDERS for your
confidence). Find your style (masher or spinner?) and try to stay with it.

9. Think of the hill as a malevolent friend you want to conquer. A friend will always be there
and you, no matter want, will eventually be better

than

Quoted message said:

it. This is hard to define except to love hills and think positively not negatively about them.

10. Ride with someone faster on the climbs. They'll force you to improve.

Have fun and enjoy it no matter what.

-Ken

"Mark Fennell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ken Papai" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OK, here are some things I espouse and believe in and they are the first

ten

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

things that come to my mind:

<snip>

OK, whatever works for you...

Does it? I think Ken's goal last year was to upgrade (or was that the goal of the year before...or
the goal of the last 5 years?). Did you meet that goal, Ken, and did your approach to climbing
contribute to your success?

"Amit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Nice to see non-delusional racers for a change.

Less fat will also make one faster in a crit (less power required for acceleration out of turns,
cardio system more efficient), however, I

think

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there is nothing the matter with carrying extra weight if one is not interested in making the
sacrifices necessary for maximizing

performance.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I thought you would have noticed that most of Ken's advice is 'mental' and 'attitude' oriented. As
if thinking positive and pushing yourself when you're on the hill will make you a much better
climber.

Are these things more important than training in a way to specifically improve (or maximize) your
sustained power to weight ratio ? Some people seem to give them a lot more importance.

If only willpower could defeat the forces of gravity. It is a romantic notion.

Willpower with regards to diet, and by extension, gravity, is not as romantic, but more effective.

Ken Papai said:

<several interesting points snipped>
5. Be mental and focused. Be strong and determined. Act like you're a winner. Don't give up. You
know the pain will disappear at the summit crest. You want to improve and better than most.
Pretend you'll be embarrassed if you fail -- think like an egoist.
9. Think of the hill as a malevolent friend you want to conquer. A friend will always be there and
you, no matter want, will eventually be better than
it. This is hard to define except to love hills and think positively not negatively about them.

I think being mentally positive about climbing is probably the most important point. Many weak
climbers are mentally defeated long before they even start a decisive climb in a race. And because
they have are negative about climbing they try to avoid climbing in their training which results in
a catch-22 situation (its easier for someone like me who is not positive enough about sprinting to
include a few sprints in my training than it is for weaker climbers to include several long climbs
in their training, I suppose).

Quoted message said:

8. Pick a hill and climb it 3-4 times in a row -- each time in a bigger gear! Start with spinning
a 38x23 all the way to the top, and maybe on the 3rd or 4th climb do the whole thing in your
39x18 or 18. This is also like magic on improving your climbing (and WONDERS for your
confidence). Find your style (masher or spinner?) and try to stay with it.

Additionaly doing hill intervals where you go flat out for each climb is pretty important at least
during the racing season, although your suggestion makes good sense out of racing season to build
strength and technique. What length recovery periods relative to the length of the climb do those of
you doing hill intervals take ?

Quoted message said:

3. Have an eye for the summit! When you see the summit coming up then shift down and think like a
racer and sprint, or go hard all the way to over the top! Drop your companions and go for a
little training day gold.

Additionaly perhaps practise faster surges during medium to long climbs. In many races I've been in
the deciding break has often come during a surge on a climb. Once the gap is there it can be hard
(physically and psychologically) to close it.

Perhaps another psychological point might be to visualize yourself climbing a decisive climb in a
race the day before the race. Many sports psycologists say this works.

Mark Fennell) said:

BTW, if you're a good skinny little climber, it is humbling to discover that good kilo or pursuit
riders will beat you up most hills that last just a couple of minutes, even if they are big guys.
That's how much power they can put out.

As a track neophyte who recently did my first 4000m pursuit I'd say apart from their power output
they also are used to staying at a high heart rate (90-95%) for several minutes required to stay up
there on the shorter climbs.

"Amit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

I thought you would have noticed that most of Ken's advice is 'mental' and 'attitude' oriented. As
if thinking positive and pushing yourself when you're on the hill will make you a much better
climber.

Are these things more important than training in a way to specifically improve (or maximize) your
sustained power to weight ratio ? Some people seem to give them a lot more importance.

-Amit

-----------------------------
I rode with some local cat 1- 4 riders who have said they hate climbing but do it anyway of course.
They just want to get it over with. To them it just pain and suffering, although I can't give their
specific opinions. For me it was like a drug for years, a total high. I kept looking for harder and
longer climbs. I just used my watch and timed myself for improvement but I have always been
interested in challenging harder and longer climbs. I became so addicting to big climbs that I
started traveling all over the mid-west looking for harder and longer climbs. I was near Mt. Evans
coming from Moab one time, but I missed Mt. Evans opening by a week. I lost lot of weight climbing
and got to where I could fly up the big long climbs. Great for stamina and endurance. I get high
when I summit the top. So you got to love climbing. Logic follows that if you do, you should excel
in it more then someone who hates it, but does it anyway. Living in the Sierra's here offer the
biggest climbs around, like Colorado, Washington and a few other places. I can't help but love it.
Aside from the science of performance enhancement strategies and calculations of power to weight
ration, climbing tactics, etc. if you are a dedicated climber with a build suited to climbing and
really love it, you can't lose. I would add to what Ken said, mental + attitude, and that gleam in
the eyes, that love for climbing.

Bruce

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Willpower with regards to diet, and by extension, gravity, is not as romantic, but more effective.

Kurgan is right about this and CO leads the nation in willpower (see link below) which explains why
many the best climbers come from CO. Based on the evidence here (rbr), CA leads the nation in
talking about willpower.

cdc.govprev reg.htmOpen ↗

Bret