Tires - meaning of folding?

gary said:

i need to buy 2 tires (700 x 23) for my road bike. the
Performance Bike catalog that i received has a column for
Folding and another column for Kevlar Belt.

the kevlar column i assume is just a more puncture
resistant tire (correct me if i'm wrong) and may add to
the weight. i'm not too concerned about the weight more so
than having to fix a flat. i ride predominantly on rural
roads so glass, thorns, etc. is possible.

a couple of questions.

one thing i noticed is that the higher end tires seem to
not have the kevlar. is this because the more "serious"
tire is aimed at individuals who want a less weighty tire?

are non-kevlar tires that much more prone to puncture
should i go that route?

and my most important question is, does the "folding" mean
that the tire can be folded up for shipping or storage?

what is the difference in construction between a folding/non-
folding tire? does the non-folding tire have a wire
bead? and if it does have a wire bead, does this grip
the rim better?

and the most important question (assuming my assumptions
about folding vs. non-folding are correct) is, does it
matter which type is used? i'm talking about whether or
not either type is usable on a rim.

Kevlar bead = folding Kevlar belt = puncture resistant

The problem is that Kevlar belts are rather inflexible and
can dramatically increase rolling resistance and reduce
grip. Better alternatives are available: Vredestein have
tyres marked "PRS" which don't use Kevlar belts but are
claimed to be even more resistant to punctures.

I had some Specialized Kevlar-belted tyres in 27" x 1 1/4"
size which were terrifying in the wet and (for equivalent
psi) gave a very poor ride compared to the tyres they
replaced. They never punctured though.

I have Vredestein S-Licks on the touring bike which haven't
punctured in thousands of miles despite being used in filthy
weather. They give a reasonable ride and the grip is
fantastic. This is largely down to the softness of the tread
compound - a rear S-Lick will look worse for wear after
2,000 miles - but a compliant casing helps too.

Going back to your original post, yes you can use either on
a rim but there are some very tight rim/folding tyre
combinations. It's sometimes worth a trial first using tyre
levers, without the tube. The tyre often goes on a bit
easier the second time, when of course you shouldn't use
the levers.

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Maybe more pucture resistant. Not that much more.

That much more (IMO). I've certainly heard from people who
claim fewer flats, and some who claim plenty of flats with
them. So far I haven't gotten a flat from a tread puncture
through a kevlar belt (although I've gotten a punctured
sidewall), furthermore I found it difficult to penetrate the
tread with a goatshead thorn when I tried.

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe more pucture resistant. Not that much more.

That much more (IMO). I've certainly heard from people who
claim fewer flats, and some who claim plenty of flats with
them. So far I haven't gotten a flat from a tread puncture
through a kevlar belt (although I've gotten a punctured
sidewall),

Different brands of tires use different types of puncture-
resistant belts. I agree that some of them are very
resistant to punctures, even from thorns and small pieces of
glass. I started getting a lot of flats this winter, then
put a puncture resistant tire (Continental 4 Seasons) on my
rear wheel and the flats went away. Weight is slightly
heavier (less than 1 ounce) than a similar non-puncture-
resistant tire. I still use a normal tire on the front for
better handling and since flats on the front are rare.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Gary
i need to buy 2 tires (700 x 23) for my road bike. the
Performance Bike catalog that i received has a column for
Folding and another column for Kevlar Belt.

the kevlar column i assume is just a more puncture resistant
tire (correct me if i'm wrong) and may add to the weight.
i'm not too concerned about the weight more so than having
to fix a flat. i ride predominantly on rural roads so glass,
thorns, etc. is possible.

a couple of questions.

one thing i noticed is that the higher end tires seem to not
have the kevlar. is this because the more "serious" tire is
aimed at individuals who want a less weighty tire?

are non-kevlar tires that much more prone to puncture should
i go that route?

and my most important question is, does the "folding" mean
that the tire can be folded up for shipping or storage?

what is the difference in construction between a folding/non-
folding tire? does the non-folding tire have a wire
bead? and if it does have a wire bead, does this grip
the rim better?

and the most important question (assuming my assumptions
about folding vs. non-folding are correct) is, does it
matter which type is used? i'm talking about whether or not
either type is usable on a rim.

sorry for all the questions but the catalog listing has
tires that pertain to all 4 combinations of the two columns
so i want to make sure that i get the right one (if there is
a difference).

Belt is what is under the tread to help with puncture protection.
I find Kevlar helps.
Folding refers to what material is used in the bead. Non-folding "wired on" tires use steel, while folding use Kevlar.
Kevlar is slightly lighter and much more flexible than steel in the bead. You can "fold" kevlar tires without damaging them. Steel tires can be manipulated into a smaller package, but you should avoid kinking the wire bead.
Sheldon has a great article on the subject at URL:
http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html

Quoted message said:

OK, you are nearly there. Folding tires are those with
kevlar bead (as opposed to kevlar belts; some actually
have both). They weigh slightly less than wire bead tires,
but work basically the same.

thanks for the insight on the other questions.

i'm assuming that the wire bead tire can't be folded as the
wire would be crimped if you did fold it. is that correct?

and if so, does that imply that a non-folding tire ordered
through the mail would come in a box the size of the
diameter of the tire? i would think shipping a box this size
would be expensive to the shipper (since the shipping rates
are based on the dollar value of the merchandise).

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 17:51:41 GMT, "gary" <[email hidden]>

may have said:

i need to buy 2 tires (700 x 23) for my road bike. the
Performance Bike catalog that i received has a column for
Folding and another column for Kevlar Belt.

Folding tires have a kevlar (or other brand of aramid fiber)
bead. They may or may not have aramid fiber belts.

Quoted message said:

the kevlar column i assume is just a more puncture
resistant tire (correct me if i'm wrong)

The kevlar belt is generally present to contribute to
puncture resistance. The fiber's method of employment has a
large influence on the effectiveness of this.

Quoted message said:

one thing i noticed is that the higher end tires seem to
not have the kevlar. is this because the more "serious"
tire is aimed at individuals who want a less weighty tire?

Lighter tires may have no belts at all. The choice of cord
fibers is made from those materials that work best for the
design. Aramid is seldom employed for carcass cord plies for
a number of reasons, the single strongest being that it has
very little stretch. This is not a good thing when low
rolling resistance is the goal.

Quoted message said:

are non-kevlar tires that much more prone to puncture
should i go that route?

Any thin, lightweight tire is going to be easily
punctured in my experience. Armoring against sharp
objects is seldom achieved without increased weight,
thickness and in most cases rolling resistance. That's
the trade-off to keep in mind.

Quoted message said:

and my most important question is, does the "folding" mean
that the tire can be folded up for shipping or storage?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

does the non-folding tire have a wire bead? and if it does
have a wire bead, does this grip the rim better?

In order: Yes; and not inherently as long as the tire
remains inflated. There are a small number of rims for
which the manufacturer advises against the use of specific
folding tires. In all other cases, a folding tire of the
appropriate size will work as well as a wire-bead tire on
the same rim. In certain cases, if the tire goes flat, a
folding tire's bead may slip over the rim flange and cause
the tire to become jammed between the rim and the fork or
stays. I've never actually seen this happen, but I've heard
of it. It does not appear to be as common with wire-bead
tires, and is apparently not common in general anyway. I
personally view it as a remote concern, but someone who
does a lot of mountain road descents (among others) might
have a different opinion.

Quoted message said:

and the most important question (assuming my assumptions
about folding vs. non-folding are correct) is, does it
matter which type is used? i'm talking about whether or not
either type is usable on a rim.

Unless the rim's manufacturer advises against the use of a
specific folding tire, it does not matter which type is
used, if then. As far as I know, the only rims for which
this is an issue are from HED. Unless your rims are from
HED, then, I don't think there's any serious need to be
concerned.

Be advised that with certain road bike forks, clearances are
so tight that it may be impossible to find a nominally puncture-
resistant tire that will fit without rubbing. In that case,
your best plan may be to have an appropriate tube, tire and
patch kit along when you ride. Folders make the spare tire a
possibility for clincher-rim users.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

"David L. Johnson" wrote:

---8<-----

Quoted message said:

A kevlar belt is a fabric. It will not stop a thorn, or
pointy piece of glass.

Rubbish. Being a fencer, with a jacket made of 800N kevlar
(at least on the front), I have avoided serious injury due
to said jacket stopping an opponent's broken blade. The fact
that Kevlar is a fabric is not a problem in itself. Not even
for bike tyres.

That said, there are certainly tyres with Kevlar fabric thin
enough that they will puncture from a sufficiently
aggressive piece of glass . . .

/Robert "does not joust on bicycles" Brown

"gary" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OK, you are nearly there. Folding tires are those with
kevlar bead (as opposed to kevlar belts; some actually
have both). They weigh slightly less than wire bead
tires, but work basically the same.

thanks for the insight on the other questions.

i'm assuming that the wire bead tire can't be folded as
the wire would be crimped if you did fold it. is that
correct?

and if so, does that imply that a non-folding tire ordered
through the mail would come in a box the size of the
diameter of the tire? i would think shipping a box this
size would be expensive to the shipper (since the shipping
rates are based on the dollar value of the merchandise).

Dear Gary,

Kevlar bead tires roll up into a bundle a bit bigger than a
fist and can be carried as a spare in a seat bag.

Wire bead tires are often shipped rolled up into thirds (two
twist/folds don't bother wire), so the shipping expense is
about the same, since it's by weight.

I've gotten both kinds from Performance. The folding Kevlar-
bead tires come in small square boxes, while the less
foldable wire-bead tires come in pizza-style boxes.

The Kevlar belt tires do reduce flats in two ways.

First, they resist big, ugly cuts better, the gashes where a
sharp-edged chunk of metal, stone, or glass cuts through.

Second, they offer some protection against smaller needle-
like punctures, such as the wretched goat-head thorns. The
Kevlar fabric itself doesn't stop the small thorns (a common
analogy on rec.bicycles.tech is that steel wool won't stop a
needle). But the slight extra tread thickness added by the
Kevlar belt can matter with thorns as small as goat-heads.
They still go into the tire, but they're no longer as likely
to reach the inner tube.

I've been pleased with a Forte folding Kevlar belt:

performancebike.comlarge photo.cfmOpen ↗
69&Store=Bike

I've had eight flats so far this year, seven rear and one
goathead on my front Kevlar belt. This is typical for my
daily road riding.

Good luck,

Carl Fogel

Non-Folding Wire bead or Kevlar Folding Bead.

The answer is simple. Kevlar Folding Bead. Way easier than steel wire beads to take off with your hands without the use of tire levers.

Zog The Undeniable said:

Kevlar belt = puncture resistant

I've had about the same amount of punctures with or without
kevlar belts. But the big difference between kevlar and non-
kevlar (for me) is that the kevlars are more resistant to
tire cuts that ruin the tire. I've only had to insert a boot
into a kevlar tire once to get home. I've had to do that
several times with non-kevlar tires.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗

BaCardi said:

Non-Folding Wire bead or Kevlar Folding Bead.

The answer is simple. Kevlar Folding Bead. Way easier than
steel wire beads to take off with your hands without the
use of tire levers.

I used to avoid kevlar-beaded tire for exactly the opposite
reason, my experience having been that they were
substantially harder to remove and install. But lately it
seems to depend more on the individual tire make/model.

"gary" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OK, you are nearly there. Folding tires are those with
kevlar bead (as opposed to kevlar belts; some actually
have both). They weigh slightly less than wire bead
tires, but work basically the same.

thanks for the insight on the other questions.

i'm assuming that the wire bead tire can't be folded as
the wire would be crimped if you did fold it. is that
correct?

and if so, does that imply that a non-folding tire ordered
through the mail would come in a box the size of the
diameter of the tire? i would think shipping a box this
size would be expensive to the shipper (since the shipping
rates are based on the dollar value of the merchandise).

No. Most wire-bead tires can be folded, although the
technique takes a little practice:

Holding the tire in front of you in both hands, twist one
side so the tire forms a figure "8". Fold it in half and
secure with a strap or masking tape. This works for
everything except the smallest 12" kiddy tires. Larger
and/or skinnier tires can be folded into thirds using a
similar technique. Here's Jobst's version of the same
instructions: draco.acs.uci.edu8b.23.htmlOpen ↗

I wouldn't recommend this for long-term storage, but it
works for carrying spares while touring.

Jeff

David L. Johnson said:

Robert Brown said:

"David L. Johnson" wrote:

---8<-----

Quoted message said:

A kevlar belt is a fabric. It will not stop a thorn, or
pointy piece of glass.

Rubbish. Being a fencer, with a jacket made of 800N
kevlar (at least on the front), I have avoided serious
injury due to said jacket stopping an opponent's broken
blade.

A broken blade presents a blunt end to the fabric. A thorn
represents a point. Pointed things go right through
fabric. Think of needles.

Good point ;-)

Very rare that the blade snaps at other than 90 degrees or
close to it (at least FIE ones).

You are quite right.

Robert

Robert Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"David L. Johnson" wrote:

---8<-----

Quoted message said:

A kevlar belt is a fabric. It will not stop a thorn, or
pointy piece of glass.

Rubbish. Being a fencer, with a jacket made of 800N kevlar
(at least on the front), I have avoided serious injury due
to said jacket stopping an opponent's broken blade. The
fact that Kevlar is a fabric is not a problem in itself.
Not even for bike tyres.

That said, there are certainly tyres with Kevlar fabric
thin enough that they will puncture from a sufficiently
aggressive piece of glass . . .

/Robert "does not joust on bicycles" Brown

Dear Robert,

The rubbish may be trickier than expected. The trouble is,
in fact, that Kevlar is a fabric. Steel and ceramic are
about all that really stops a true point.

If you google a bit for bullet-proof vests and Kevlar, you
can probably find articles about fellows who've bought them
and invited friends to test them with mere hunting knives,
not swords.

Hunting knives are much pointier than slugs, so usually the
fellow with the new vest is killed. The knife-point goes
right through the fabric.

Here's a technical page that ends up warning that no Kevlar
vest is stab-proof, though they offer increasing levels of
protection:

bulletproofme.comStab Resistance Levels.shtmlOpen ↗

(Despite the praise for protection against slashing cuts, I
wouldn't want to test such vests against the kind of swords
that Japanese officers used on film to cut machine-gun
barrels in half.)

In fencing, the broken blade that will skewer an unlucky
opponent is still likely to be much larger and blunter in
cross-section than a true point.

If you have a fencing vest that you're willing to sacrifice,
you might fix it to a stout frame and test a true point on
it. I suspect that a real sword (as opposed to a broken
point, fearsome though it is to flesh) will puncture the
vest fairly easily.

A needle-point goes between even a tightly knitted fabric's
fibers and then either forces them aside or else slices them
apart with the following edge.

Elsewhere on this newsgroup, Dianne_1234 has told us how
she cut Kevlar fabric with steel scissors, but that they
dulled quickly:

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
8&selm=3ltruvg7dvuqnite1jrq8q4rslssmk3j4v%404ax.com

I'd be astonished if any Kevlar vest could resist a typical
heavy-rifle bayonet thrust, with its massively supported
point, following blade, and mass.

I'm actually rather curious, since I expect that fencing
vests will be rather thicker, denser, and stouter than
bicycle tire belts. I've had a truly heroic goat-head
sticker pierce a Kevlar belt. But it would be interesting to
hear of any results that you come up with.

Carl Fogel

Robert Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"David L. Johnson" wrote:

---8<-----

Quoted message said:

A kevlar belt is a fabric. It will not stop a thorn, or
pointy piece of glass.

Rubbish. Being a fencer, with a jacket made of 800N kevlar
(at least on the front), I have avoided serious injury due
to said jacket stopping an opponent's broken blade. The
fact that Kevlar is a fabric is not a problem in itself.
Not even for bike tyres.

That said, there are certainly tyres with Kevlar fabric
thin enough that they will puncture from a sufficiently
aggressive piece of glass . . .

/Robert "does not joust on bicycles" Brown

Dear Robert,

The rubbish may be trickier than expected. The trouble is,
in fact, that Kevlar is a fabric. Steel and ceramic are
about all that really stops a true point.

If you google a bit for bullet-proof vests and Kevlar, you
can probably find articles about fellows who've bought them
and invited friends to test them with mere hunting knives,
not swords.

Hunting knives are much pointier than slugs, so usually the
fellow with the new vest is killed. The knife-point goes
right through the fabric.

Here's a technical page that ends up warning that no Kevlar
vest is stab-proof, though they offer increasing levels of
protection:

bulletproofme.comStab Resistance Levels.shtmlOpen ↗

(Despite the praise for protection against slashing cuts, I
wouldn't want to test such vests against the kind of swords
that Japanese officers used on film to cut machine-gun
barrels in half.)

In fencing, the broken blade that will skewer an unlucky
opponent is still likely to be much larger and blunter in
cross-section than a true point.

If you have a fencing vest that you're willing to sacrifice,
you might fix it to a stout frame and test a true point on
it. I suspect that a real sword (as opposed to a broken
point, fearsome though it is to flesh) will puncture the
vest fairly easily.

A needle-point goes between even a tightly knitted fabric's
fibers and then either forces them aside or else slices them
apart with the following edge.

Elsewhere on this newsgroup, Dianne_1234 has told us how
she cut Kevlar fabric with steel scissors, but that they
dulled quickly:

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
8&selm=3ltruvg7dvuqnite1jrq8q4rslssmk3j4v%404ax.com

I'd be astonished if any Kevlar vest could resist a typical
heavy-rifle bayonet thrust, with its massively supported
point, following blade, and mass.

I'm actually rather curious, since I expect that fencing
vests will be rather thicker, denser, and stouter than
bicycle tire belts. I've had a truly heroic goat-head
sticker pierce a Kevlar belt. But it would be interesting to
hear of any results that you come up with.

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

... since flats on the front are rare.

why is that? now that you mention it i think most of my
flats have been the rear.

do any books mention the ratio of front flats vs. rear?

i want to thank everyone for their responses to my
questions concerning folding vs. non-folding tires and
kevlar belted tires.

i learned a lot of info from the responses.

of course these responses lead me to another question before
i make my decision on a tire purchase.

do bike tires wear differently predominantly based on price?
that is, are they like car tires in which the cheaper tires
will wear out faster than the more expensive tires? i have a
few selections in mind (in the Performance catalog) ranging
between $15-$25.

i realize that the lighter tires might command a price
premium but as an example (while just looking at the
catalog) there are two tires from Schwalbe that are the same
size, same PSI, and same weight but one costs $90, the other
$40. so is extra mileage the reason for the high costs since
the other numbers are the same?

i categorize myself as an "enthusiast" biker, not a "pro"
but not a "slow" biker. so i do not want to spend more than
i need to as i probably won't "feel the difference". however
if i can get more mileage out of a more expensive tire than
i don't mind as long as the price differential is comparable
to the extra mileage.

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 03:35:27 GMT, "gary" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

do bike tires wear differently predominantly based on
price? that is, are

No. Long-life and short-life tires come in cheap and
expensive varieties.
--
Rick Onanian

"gary" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

... since flats on the front are rare.

why is that? now that you mention it i think most of my
flats have been the rear.

do any books mention the ratio of front flats vs. rear?

havent read the whole thread yet maybe someone else answered
this for you but here it is again
draco.acs.uci.edu8b.7.htmlOpen ↗