Comments from the "older" crowd?

TopCounsel said:

i found that there were no magic drinks or foods. i just needed more recovery."

COMMENTS AND EXPERIENCES?

This is just an anecdotal tale of what we covered in the last thread. You get better, faster,
stronger, etc. with proper rest. Most people focus too much on hard training and too little on
recovery. At 51 I could still break 40 in the 10k. At 52 I stopped giving a [censored] about busting my
ass with speed work and now run 43 minutes for the few 10k's I do and have a lot more enjoyment.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

This is just an anecdotal tale of what we covered in the last thread. You get

better, faster, stronger, etc. with proper rest.

Quoted message said:

Most people focus too much on hard training and too little on recovery. At 51

I could still break 40 in the 10k. At 52 I stopped

Quoted message said:

giving a [censored] about busting my ass with speed work and now run 43 minutes for

the few 10k's I do and have a lot more enjoyment.

I'm more focussed on the not-running-sore thing than on my "times." I'm frustrated with going
everywhere smelling like wintergreen, or whatever's in Flexall, and I really, really, really, do not
like getting up in the morning and telling myself that I shouldn't run just then. Did you find
anything familiar in Bill Rodgers' comments, or does it seem like what he describes has never really
happened to you?

TopCounsel said:

I'm more focussed on the not-running-sore thing than on my "times." I'm frustrated with going
everywhere smelling like wintergreen, or whatever's in Flexall, and I really, really, really, do
not like getting up in the morning and telling myself that I shouldn't run just then.

I hate the term active recovery but try 3-5 miles of very, very, easy easy running rather then
taking off.

Quoted message said:

familiar in Bill Rodgers' comments, or does it seem like what he describes has never really
happened to you?

Happened to a small extent to me especially with the hard, not big volume, miles that I run. I can
sense when I'm pushing too hard and I either run slow, take the day off or go for a nice bike ride.
If you using wintergreen you are already over the sanity line.

Try a week of pure junk and I'll bet you start to feel better. In all seriousness you need to do
some homework on periodization.

Take a gander at these: pponline.co.uk0147.htmOpen ↗
pponline.co.uk0800.htmOpen ↗

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

[email hidden] (TopCounsel) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

From "Bill Rodgers' Lifetime Running Plan," Harper Perennial Press, 1998: "There have been other
changes as I've aged. Starting in my late 30's and early 40's, I noticed a pretty much perpetual
soreness in my legs that wasn't there before.

Men are not automobiles, but how much of the above was due to the accumulation of miles and how much
to that of years?

I coulc imagine that - even if running is not quite as bad for you as some people seem to believe:-)
- 20-25 years of high colume running and elite competition will demand a toll far greater than than,
say, 10-15 years of much more modest running around and after the age of 40.

Quoted message said:

I would definitely get sore 20 years ago, but when I did, it was an acute soreness, limited to one
spot on my legs, and I could usually figure out why I had it. For example, if I wore spikes on the
track, I could usually count on my calves being sore the next day, and I could count on that
soreness disappearing within a few days. What I experience now is different. It's more low-grade,
but it's almost always there."

I haven´t developed any lingering or constant soreness, but the last sentence reminds me of the
differences in sensation after a hard session: when I was younger, the exhaustion was somehow deeper
but more short-lived, and usually followed by an intense sensation of physical well-being - now the
exhaustion is more easily containable but can linger on (and even make itself felt a bit more after
a few hours), and the "high" is unremazkable (and the purely mental reward greater)..

Quoted message said:

i began to struggle with both my times and my miles after i turned 40 but it took 5 years before i
finally decided that i could no longer run like i had been able to do in my 20's and 30's. jeff
galloway had written an article in runners world where he talked baout running every other day (we
were the same age except he had been world class while i had been local class).

That less can be more is very often true in training:-)

Quoted message said:

at 45 i could no longer break 40 minutes for 10K where in my best days i ran > in the 32-33
minute range.

I´d attribute this to two reasons: 1) The effects of aging, and 2) the creeping deterioration of
basic endurance which is not so much due to 1) but to a failure to adjust one´s training.

Quoted message said:

i began to use a heart rate monitor and for months i ran each run at or under 70%. at first i had
to run very very slowly to stay under 70%. it wasn't easy but my legs began to come back after
about 3 months.

How fast you can run 10K is determined by how fast you can run at 70% HRmax, it´s as simple as that
(for the common man, at least).

And if you don´t run a considerable portion of your mileage at or under 70%, no amount of running
faster will make you faster at 70% (or, granted, it may, but only to an extent and not as
effectively).

Quoted message said:

6 months later i began to race again. i was quuckly under 37 minutes for 10K and eventually got
back down around 35 minutes in 1991 (not bad for 46). i continued running at that same level
through the age of 48.

Hats off, everyone! Why this chap prefers not to post here is a mystery to me:-)

Anders

Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Happened to a small extent to me especially with the hard, not big volume, miles that I run. I can
sense when I'm pushing too hard and I either run slow, take the day off or go for a nice bike
ride. If you using wintergreen you are already over the sanity line.

"Using wintergreen" must be another of those marvellous American expressions?

(BTW, I think it was Anthony Trollope who proposed the idea of institutions where men, upon arriving
at sixty, could spend six months in serene contemplation before their days were kindly put to an end
with the help of chloroform...)

Anders

On 27 Feb 2004 03:12:19 -0800, [email hidden] (Anders Lustig)

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (TopCounsel) wrote in message news:<20040226130625.08945.00000478@mb-
m13.aol.com>...

Quoted message said:

From "Bill Rodgers' Lifetime Running Plan," Harper Perennial Press, 1998:

<lengthy saga snipped>

Don't listen to Anders, he is but the baby of this running group. Age will wither him, and the
years condemn.

You seem to be asking a simple question;

"How should I run as I age?"

Going back to what I wrote elsewhere, I don't think anyone should be too prescriptive when offering
advice to an individual on their training. There are simply too many factors of which one is
unaware. Evidence suggest that strength declines dramatically after 45, so it seems prudent to
introduce some strength training into your programme. Other than that, one must accept with grace
the slow deterioration of ones physical and mental faculties.

I don't think the question you should pose is the one you've asked. I think the question should be;

"Why should I run as I age?"

You've got to face some unpleasant facts. Your running will become slower, more painful and probably
less enjoyable. Injuries will occur more frequently, and injury management will become increasingly
important. Motivation will wane, interest may flag, weight will increase.....and so on.

I'll be 51 this year. Sure, I can still whip the ass of some loud-mouthed 20-something year olds of
this world, but that's only 'cause they don't amount to much in running terms anyway. It's no big
deal and it's no great motivator. I'm guessing I've got another four or five years of potentially
'reasonable' running in me before I have to sit down and decide whether I want to be a daily or an
every-other-day runner, but either way I'll be running to reduce the rate of decline in my fitness,
not from any sense of competition. In other words, the 'why' has changed.

So, to return to your subject, I think the key is goal-setting. The training we do should be defined
by our aims. Are they to do a sub-20 5k, a 60 second quarter, or simply to run twice round the local
park without feeling as though you've been worked over with a baseball bat? If it's the latter - and
I suspect that for you (and soon I) it is - then we shouldn't adhere to our old training routines,
we should develop those that meet our changed priorities.

I'll be quite happy to become a once-every-two-days runner if it means that I'll enjoy my runs and
keep the injuries at bay. I'll gladly substitute swimming or bicycling on my no-run days, when I
would have considered them soft options in the past. Problems only occur when you fail to recognise
that you've chosen - or been forced by father time - to realign you goals, and you vainly attempt to
pursue a training regime that is no longer relevant to your needs or abilities.

Trouble is, then that b*****d Donny will be able to beat me. Damn, old age sucks!

Speaking of the "older" crowd, here is a link to an article on the world
record holder for the marathon in the over 70 group. Probably many of you
have seen this but, if not, it is quite an interesting read.
http://www.runnersweb.com/running/news/rw_news_20030911_EdWhitlock.html" rel="ugc nofollow noopener">runnersweb.comrw news frameset.htmlOpen ↗

I wonder how much duration is a factor for older people. You hear of older runners 40-70s doing some
amazing things. Hoever many of them are fairly new to the sport. These days people who've never
stopped schoolboy running can have 30 years by their 40s (cest moi). When you have that long of a
perspective, you notice a decline.

I re Bill Rogers ad vise. as mean and truthful he has been. The results do work. evan as things as a
soar butt on a bike seat. Butt uni like Bill people sore bulls headed and stubborn forgo reason
other then. Because I am. There is a reason a painter such as me is stupid. The village barns I
painted has to be up kept with intell people. So I am stupid too them. Shake spore and Keith or
Edger alien poet. Too say, Too do. The Devil: My opinion mean as much to a man on new t.v. who said
My 92 miles this week so far means .Not a thing. Because My eyes see that he is 50 plus a litter
fat. Or christ and The movie mad macs who claims I want a part of him. Bring it on. Or abalone who
says I be the prep. No matter what. I say this. Your Bull in Only my way belongs to the 5 years old
birthday party. If I do over 101 miles this week or evan 110 mile plus. You can rake this 10
percent. Butt truth is. You walk from your house, to your car, to your job. to your store, to your
car, to your home to your Bath. to your room. to you front yard. and run your 5 miles time 4 or evan
5 days a wee. So tell it 2 someone who cares. run, walk, hike bike swim. The walk to your car don't
count you podia, ham, khan pert way past your GYM body. so called money life. You might of bungled
in tea early pre rock ad roll days. butt now you walk to your bathroom. Dream on.

My contribution from someone "older" is, "Never waste a hardon, and never trust a fart".

Anders Lustig said:

"Using wintergreen" must be another of those marvellous American expressions?

Akak BenGay and other topical ointments whicg are oftren used for sore muscles but are
really useless

Quoted message said:

(BTW, I think it was Anthony Trollope who proposed the idea of institutions where men, upon
arriving at sixty, could spend six months in serene contemplation before their days were kindly
put to an end with the help of chloroform...)

This means I only have a little over a year to live. I'd better start a diet so I can look good
in the box.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Anders Lustig said:

"Using wintergreen" must be another of those marvellous American expressions?

Akak BenGay and other topical ointments whicg are oftren used for sore muscles but are
really useless

Quoted message said:

(BTW, I think it was Anthony Trollope who proposed the idea of institutions where men, upon
arriving at sixty, could spend six months in serene contemplation before their days were kindly
put to an end with the help of chloroform...)

This means I only have a little over a year to live. I'd better start a diet so I can look good in
the box.

Perhaps I can add a little from the perspective of my advanced years: I'm
73.

FWIW, when I was 44 I ran my PR for 10K - 34:20. I've also run a 4:40
mile. Obviously, none of these were run recently. When I ran these times, in my forties, I was
running at least 70 MPW, with an occasional week over 100 miles. After about ten years of
that I asked: Why am I doing this?

I knocked off cometition, only running occaisionally for health's sakes. Fow a while I rode a
bicycle, too. I had started running again at age 69 when I was diagnosed with colon cancer
(december, 1999). Since then, I've had three rounds of chemo, one of radiation and five abdominal
surgeries. September, 2002, my doctors cleared me to start running again. It took a while, but I've
finally gotten to the point whre I FEEL like I'm running again, instead of just jogging.

I've read that the major difference between older runners and younger runners is a decrease in
stride length, rather than stride frequency. I FEEL like I'm running faster than the distance I
actually cover. I've registered for my first 10K in many years (28 March).

I've decided that I'll continue running as long as I can (I've been cancer free for almost three
years, now), not so much because I think it will make me live longer, but because I feel so much
better when I do.

FWIW, I run six days per week and average almost an hour per day. SLOW, but it feels fast!

Regards...

Tom

"TopCounsel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

From "Bill Rodgers' Lifetime Running Plan," Harper Perennial Press, 1998:

"There have been other changes as I've aged. Starting in my late

30's and

Quoted message said:

early 40's, I noticed a pretty much perpetual soreness in my legs that

wasn't

Quoted message said:

there before. I would definitely get sore 20 years ago, but when I did,

it was

Quoted message said:

an acute soreness, limited to one spot on my legs, and I could usually

figure

Quoted message said:

out why I had it. For example, if I wore spikes on the track, I could

usually

Quoted message said:

count on my calves being sore the next day, and I could count on that

soreness

Quoted message said:

disappearing within a few days. What I experience now is different. It's

more

Quoted message said:

low-grade, but it's almost always there."

From an e-mail sent to me that wasn't posted to the group:

"I read your question about recovery. i am 59 and have been running since

1968.

Quoted message said:

between 1975 and late 1990 (when i was 45) i ran 6-7 days a week often

totaling

Quoted message said:

60 miles per week.

i began to struggle with both my times and my miles after i turned 40 but

it

Quoted message said:

took 5 years before i finally decided that i could no longer run like i

had

Quoted message said:

been able to do in my 20's and 30's. jeff galloway had written an article

in

Quoted message said:

runners world where he talked baout running every other day (we were the

same

Quoted message said:

age except he had been world class while i had been local class).

at 45 i could no longer break 40 minutes for 10K where in my best days i

ran in

Quoted message said:

the 32-33 minute range.

i did two major things:

i went to every other day running covering 8-10 miles on the days i ran

and

Quoted message said:

running nothing the next day. i did no cross training wanting to give my

legs a

Quoted message said:

complete rest.

i began to use a heart rate monitor and for months i ran each run at or

under

Quoted message said:

70%. at first i had to run very very slowly to stay under 70%. it wasn't

easy

Quoted message said:

but my legs began to come back after about 3 months.

6 months later i began to race again. i was quuckly under 37 minutes for

10K

Quoted message said:

and eventually got back down around 35 minutes in 1991 (not bad for 46). i continued running at
that same level through the age of 48.

i found that there were no magic drinks or foods. i just needed more

recovery."

Quoted message said:

COMMENTS AND EXPERIENCES?

I guess this proves we are all different if it proves anything. I have a friend with alost identical
times, age, etc, and he solved his slowing down problem as he aged by adding hours and hours of
lactate work on the stationary bike. For him, to take a day off every other day would be a disaster.
He's tried it.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most insecure people are the ones you see, putting
other people down constantly."

Cumulus <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Don't listen to Anders, he is but the baby of this running group.

I´m older than my newgroup persona, and I´m older than I appear. This is the second year I´m
entitled to race in the "M40" category.

Quoted message said:

Age will wither him, and the years condemn.

As I fully expect them to do, although I know I´m quite unable to imagine how it´ll feel.

Quoted message said:

You seem to be asking a simple question; "How should I run as I age?"

I thought he was asking "How should I run in my mid- forties?", otherwise I wouldn´t have dared to
set out to answer him.

Anders

Anders Lustig said:

Cumulus <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Don't listen to Anders, he is but the baby of this running group.

I´m older than my newgroup persona, and I´m older than I appear. This is the second year I´m
entitled to race in the "M40" category.

Roger at 51 thinks he is the old man when he is in his prime.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Age will wither him, and the years condemn.

As I fully expect them to do, although I know I´m quite unable to imagine how it´ll feel.

If your concentrating on speed you will see a gradual slowing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You seem to be asking a simple question; "How should I run as I age?"

I thought he was asking "How should I run in my mid- forties?", otherwise I wouldn´t have dared to
set out to answer him.

Even this question is very hard to answer. I started when I was 39 and made great progress for 5
years and then less progress until about 51. I would guess if someone was running from college into
his/her 40's the answer would be different.

I don't know the validity of the statement but it's often repeated,
"you'll make progresss for about 10 years regardless of when you
start to run." This is measuring you with you and not age groups.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Doug Freese said:

Anders Lustig said:

Cumulus <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Don't listen to Anders, he is but the baby of this running group.

I´m older than my newgroup persona, and I´m older than I appear. This is the second year I´m
entitled to race in the "M40" category.

Roger at 51 thinks he is the old man when he is in his prime.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Age will wither him, and the years condemn.

As I fully expect them to do, although I know I´m quite unable to imagine how it´ll feel.

If your concentrating on speed you will see a gradual slowing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You seem to be asking a simple question; "How should I run as I age?"

I thought he was asking "How should I run in my mid- forties?", otherwise I wouldn´t have dared
to set out to answer him.

Even this question is very hard to answer. I started when I was 39 and made great progress for 5
years and then less progress until about 51. I would guess if someone was running from college
into his/her 40's the answer would be different.

I don't know the validity of the statement but it's often repeated,
"you'll make progresss for about 10 years regardless of when you
start to run." This is measuring you with you and not age groups.

I get injured easier and heal slower, in addition to having less speed and endurance, compared to
when I started running 25 years ago. YMMV

--
Bob Burns Mill Hall PA [email hidden]

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Even this question is very hard to answer. I started when I was 39

and made great progress for 5 years and then less progress until about 51. I would guess if
someone was running from college into his/her 40's the answer would be different.

Discouraging. I'm 45 and just starting out.

Quoted message said:

I don't know the validity of the statement but it's often repeated,
"you'll make progresss for about 10 years regardless of when you
start to run." This is measuring you with you and not age groups.

OK, encouraging then.