What's up with the butterfly?

"Zorak" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Seriously. How can you get the two parts coordinated? I have trouble with it, and swim team starts
in a month or two, so please give me some thought/opinions.

You can try a fly timing drill where you recover your hands underwater by sneaking them up your
body and do not breathe for several cycles. This allows you to go really slowly and groove the
relative arm/leg timing. You should start from the extended streamline position and then start your
arm pull; as the arms are moving back the legs are coming up to prepare for the downbeat. Then as
the hands sweep past the hips the downbeat occurs. Then as you sneak your hands up, the legs
recover again and then give another downbeat as the arms reach full forward extension. You want to
have one downbeat as they reach extension (which will be as the arms enter the water in full
stroke), and one downbeat as the hands reach the end of the pull. As I said, go really slow and
easy and try to get the timing just right and grooved into your brain. You can do 4 or 5 cycles and
then stop for a breath and continue.

When you master this drill, the transition to full stroke is fairly easy.

Don

"Zorak" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Seriously. How can you get the two parts coordinated? I have trouble with it, and swim team starts
in a month or two, so please give me some thought/opinions.

One of the things that I noticed helping is: Our coach had us do some drills with short fins, till
we get the hang of the rhythm. Using fins for first few weeks sort of made the rhythm sink in
better. Then at least when trying to duplicate that without fins, You would have a feel for what
you;re trying to accomplish.

Zorak said:

Seriously. How can you get the two parts coordinated? I have trouble with it, and swim team starts
in a month or two, so please give me some thought/opinions.

I gave up trying after 30 years. I think there are a few of us who simply can't learn to do it
properly. I hope you aren't one of them, but if you are, don't lose hope. Even though I have never
been able to coordinate the kick and pull properly, I still managed to set a few state records in
the 200 fly in Adelaide, when I was in my 40's.

But what do I know? You should probably ask DaKitty. She is about to qualify for the World
Championships, and more power to her.

martin

--
If you are a US citizen, please use your constitutional right to vote, because we badly need a new
president.

With much trepidation, but under the good advice of Al, I have dared to upload the following mini-
movie of my understanding of butterfly.

personal.psu.eduMothstroke.htmlOpen ↗

I welcome criticism greedily.

Ruth Kazez

Can you please put it up in a plain vanilla link so that people don't have to download Macromedia
Flash? Thank you.

Don

"rtk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

With much trepidation, but under the good advice of Al, I have dared to upload the following mini-
movie of my understanding of butterfly.

personal.psu.eduMothstroke.htmlOpen ↗

I welcome criticism greedily.

Ruth Kazez

Donald Graft said:

Can you please put it up in a plain vanilla link so that people don't have to download Macromedia
Flash? Thank you.

Ummmm....how do I do that? I feel very stupid. But I can't find it in any of my manuals or the
online help.

Ruth Kazez

[email hidden] (Zorak) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Seriously. How can you get the two parts coordinated? I have trouble with it, and swim team starts
in a month or two, so please give me some thought/opinions.

This is what I do. It has taken me a long time to figure it out but finally I got it, I think.

when the arms are going into the water, you should pretend that you are diving into the water. At
that poing you should be also kicking down, so that your lower body should be straight and so should
your upper body.

Once you complete your glide and your dive, you should curve your lower back ondulating to begin to
bring your body up towards the surface again. During the ondulation that makes your body point
upwards start your pull phase, and you begin to bend your knees. As your arms complete the pull, you
should kick to help bring your body out of the water. this is the important kick because it helps
you lift your shoulders and helping your arms. otherwise, the only thing that you are using is your
arms to lift it and that is tough. Once your body comes out of the water and your arms go over the
water, you bend your knees and kick down to propel your body into the dive.

Again: 2 kicks. One when your body is out of the water to propel your body into a dive/glide which
makes body point down. With arms gliding, curve back to make upper body point up and start pull
phase. As you complete pull pahse, kick to lift shoulders out of water. come out of water and start
to dive while kicking to propel body into dive.

I used to kick randomly and it seemed completely chaotic. At some point I started focusing in the
ondulation, and the kick followed naturally. I still suck, and can only do two lengths in a row
before [censored] styles.

Did this make sense?

Andres

simple way to do it is this:

do fly drill (ie just for kicks swim with only your right arm, your left out in front of you. breath
as you do in freestyle, (undet th recovering arm)).

as the hand enters, pop the hips up, push the chest down.

remember this simple rhythm: kick the hand in and kick it out.

once you have mastered this with the right arm, do it with the left.

once you have mastered the left arm, alternate between right and left, with the non-active hand out
infront in a streamline...essentially, catch up.

once you have mastered alternating, try both hands together, as kitty said, using fins. not zoomers,
but fins. do not breathe to the front.

one you have the rhythm of kicking them in and kicking them out (the hands that is), try 1 right, 1
left, 1 together. remember to pop the hips upon entry.

gradually increase the amount of double-arm strokes.

only breathe to the left or right, never to the front, until you're proficient. this will stop the
hips dropping.

now you can swim fly.

steve.

Quoted message said:

Donald Graft said:

Can you please put it up in a plain vanilla link so that people don't have to download Macromedia
Flash? Thank you.

I tried again using Plugin instead of Flash or Shockwave. I made the file so tiny that if my stroke
didn't look bad to begin with it sure does now. But now I can blame the file; I'm not compressed -
the movie is. Anyhow, for how not to (probably):
personal.psu.eduMothstroke.htmlOpen ↗

rtk

Zorak left this mess on 13 Feb 2004 17:14:44 -0800 for The Way to clean up:

Quoted message said:

Seriously. How can you get the two parts coordinated? I have trouble with it, and swim team starts
in a month or two, so please give me some thought/opinions.

The fly starts and ends with your abdominals. Do crunches, leg lifts, oblique work, and
miraculously, you'll find the stroke comes together.

Tao te Carl "It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

(Kudos to Cap'n Jim Wyatt for this link) BEFORE you ask a dumb-ass question
here...http://www.speakeasy.org/~neilco/bart.gif

Hi, this morning I did a few butterfly lengths to get the timing right. My previous post was pretty
accurate. Two kicks per stroke. One on top of the water to get you to dive in. The second kick
starts right as you finish the glyde and go into the pull face. This adds propulsion to the pull and
helps you launch out of the water. Try to do this really slowly. I'll give you lots of power. I read
a while back that soviet freestylers (in the olden times) used to train by doing sets of 200 mts
fly. When they would go back to 200 and above freestyle sets, they would be able to fly (go fast,
not swim butterfly) in the water.

Try to swim non-stop fly drills intermingled with your freestyle. Ie, swim 200 free, 50 fly, 200
free 50 fly, 200 free 50. When you go from fly to free, you seem to float in the water. Whenever you
swim your next 800 mts freestyle event, it will be piece of cake. Add as much fly as you can handle
and as soon as you finish your fly, recover while swimming free.

Next open water swim, or tri, when you are stuck in the middle of the pacific going AT, you'll have
the confidence to swim yourself back to an aerobic pace.

Andres

[email hidden] (andres muro) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Zorak) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Seriously. How can you get the two parts coordinated? I have trouble with it, and swim team
starts in a month or two, so please give me some thought/opinions.

This is what I do. It has taken me a long time to figure it out but finally I got it, I think.

when the arms are going into the water, you should pretend that you are diving into the water. At
that poing you should be also kicking down, so that your lower body should be straight and so
should your upper body.

Once you complete your glide and your dive, you should curve your lower back ondulating to begin
to bring your body up towards the surface again. During the ondulation that makes your body point
upwards start your pull phase, and you begin to bend your knees. As your arms complete the pull,
you should kick to help bring your body out of the water. this is the important kick because it
helps you lift your shoulders and helping your arms. otherwise, the only thing that you are using
is your arms to lift it and that is tough. Once your body comes out of the water and your arms go
over the water, you bend your knees and kick down to propel your body into the dive.

Again: 2 kicks. One when your body is out of the water to propel your body into a dive/glide which
makes body point down. With arms gliding, curve back to make upper body point up and start pull
phase. As you complete pull pahse, kick to lift shoulders out of water. come out of water and
start to dive while kicking to propel body into dive.

I used to kick randomly and it seemed completely chaotic. At some point I started focusing in the
ondulation, and the kick followed naturally. I still suck, and can only do two lengths in a row
before [censored] styles.

Did this make sense?

Andres

"rtk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I tried again using Plugin instead of Flash or Shockwave. I made the file so tiny that if my
stroke didn't look bad to begin with it sure does now. But now I can blame the file; I'm not
compressed - the movie is. Anyhow, for how not to (probably):
personal.psu.eduMothstroke.htmlOpen ↗

Thank you, that works good now. You asked for comments, so I would agree with Michael Phelps that it
is important to breathe on every stroke to get the proper dolphin undulation. You are very flat when
you do not breathe. You're not getting the body dolphin action that adds considerable propulsion to
the stroke. IMHO, of course. :-)

I highly recommend Michael Phelps's DVD on butterfly. It is awesome.

Don

Donald Graft wrote:

............ I would

Quoted message said:

agree with Michael Phelps that it is important to breathe on every stroke to get the proper
dolphin undulation. You are very flat when you do not breathe. ..............

Thank you rtk

In article <SGfYb.338895$na.500430@attbi_s04>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"rtk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I tried again using Plugin instead of Flash or Shockwave. I made the file so tiny that if my
stroke didn't look bad to begin with it sure does now. But now I can blame the file; I'm not
compressed - the movie is. Anyhow, for how not to (probably):
personal.psu.eduMothstroke.htmlOpen ↗

Thank you, that works good now. You asked for comments, so I would agree with Michael Phelps that
it is important to breathe on every stroke to get the proper dolphin undulation. You are very flat
when you do not breathe. You're not getting the body dolphin action that adds considerable
propulsion to the stroke. IMHO, of course. :-)

I highly recommend Michael Phelps's DVD on butterfly. It is awesome.

Don

Boy, I'm going to sound even sillier than usual disagreeing with Michael Phelps, but breathing every
stroke as a matter of course doesn't sound like good advice to me. Or is he just recommending this
as a stroke drill to "feel" the dolphin action? At least in my case, raising my head burns up more
energy than the benefit of the breath provides - and isn't really required to get the dolphin action
going (although I can see how it might for someone just starting out...)

Throughout my swimming career, two breaths in a row in fly (or a breath on your first stroke off the
wall) was one of the most egregious sins possible.

Then again, Phelps' 100 fly is 10 seconds faster than mine ever was :-) Does anyone happen to know
if his opinion on fly/breathing represents the current thinking in general?

Next time I'm in the pool I'll try a few breaths in a row - all my old coaches likely to assault me
for this are back in Florida, California or the hereafter. Minnesota is safe in this regard :-)

- Al

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Congrats Ruth, looks like you cracked the code on the video stuff!

- Al

I personally do not agree with that line of thinking. I'm usually intrigued by progressive-in-conventions-face-
booyah! types of stroke mechanics, but in this case, i do not agree.

as a drill to teach undulation, perhaps, but it still wouldn't be as good as breaststroke
arms/dolphin legs.

its more than possible to employ adequate undulation without lifting the head.

"Al" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MPG.1a9c2789a9458cab98973a@mayonews...

Quoted message said:

In article <SGfYb.338895$na.500430@attbi_s04>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"rtk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I tried again using Plugin instead of Flash or Shockwave. I made the file so tiny that if my
stroke didn't look bad to begin with it sure does now. But now I can blame the file; I'm not
compressed - the

movie

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is. Anyhow, for how not to (probably):
personal.psu.eduMothstroke.htmlOpen ↗

Thank you, that works good now. You asked for comments, so I would agree with Michael Phelps
that it is important to breathe on every

stroke

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to get the proper dolphin undulation. You are very flat when you do not breathe. You're not
getting the body dolphin action that adds

considerable

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

propulsion to the stroke. IMHO, of course. :-)

I highly recommend Michael Phelps's DVD on butterfly. It is awesome.

Don

Boy, I'm going to sound even sillier than usual disagreeing with Michael Phelps, but breathing
every stroke as a matter of course doesn't sound like good advice to me. Or is he just
recommending this as a stroke drill to "feel" the dolphin action? At least in my case, raising my
head burns up more energy than the benefit of the breath provides - and isn't really required to
get the dolphin action going (although I can see how it might for someone just starting out...)

Throughout my swimming career, two breaths in a row in fly (or a breath on your first stroke off
the wall) was one of the most egregious sins possible.

Then again, Phelps' 100 fly is 10 seconds faster than mine ever was :-) Does anyone happen to know
if his opinion on fly/breathing represents the current thinking in general?

Next time I'm in the pool I'll try a few breaths in a row - all my old coaches likely to assault
me for this are back in Florida, California or the hereafter. Minnesota is safe in this regard :-)

- Al

Sorry, I lend more credence to Michael Phelps. Get his
DVD. He explains it all in there (along with his coach).

Don

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I personally do not agree with that line of thinking. I'm usually intrigued by progressive-in-conventions-face-
booyah! types of stroke mechanics, but in this case, i do not agree.

as a drill to teach undulation, perhaps, but it still wouldn't be as good as breaststroke
arms/dolphin legs.

its more than possible to employ adequate undulation without lifting the head.

"Al" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MPG.1a9c2789a9458cab98973a@mayonews...

Quoted message said:

In article <SGfYb.338895$na.500430@attbi_s04>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"rtk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I tried again using Plugin instead of Flash or Shockwave. I made the file so tiny that if my
> stroke didn't look bad to begin with it sure does now. But now I can blame the file; I'm not
> compressed - the

movie

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> is. Anyhow, for how not to (probably):
> personal.psu.eduMothstroke.htmlOpen ↗

Thank you, that works good now. You asked for comments, so I would agree with Michael Phelps
that it is important to breathe on every

stroke

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to get the proper dolphin undulation. You are very flat when you do not breathe. You're not
getting the body dolphin action that adds

considerable

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

propulsion to the stroke. IMHO, of course. :-)

I highly recommend Michael Phelps's DVD on butterfly. It is awesome.

Don

Boy, I'm going to sound even sillier than usual disagreeing with Michael Phelps, but breathing
every stroke as a matter of course doesn't sound like good advice to me. Or is he just
recommending this as a stroke drill to "feel" the dolphin action? At least in my case, raising
my head burns up more energy than the benefit of the breath provides - and isn't really required
to get the dolphin action going (although I can see how it might for someone just starting
out...)

Throughout my swimming career, two breaths in a row in fly (or a breath on your first stroke off
the wall) was one of the most egregious sins possible.

Then again, Phelps' 100 fly is 10 seconds faster than mine ever was :-) Does anyone happen to
know if his opinion on fly/breathing represents the current thinking in general?

Next time I'm in the pool I'll try a few breaths in a row - all my old coaches likely to
assault me for this are back in Florida, California or the hereafter. Minnesota is safe in this
regard :-)

- Al

You're perfectly free to listen to who you wish, however i did hear about this before it was
mentioned there, and i didn't agree with it then either. Phelps isn't the only world class flier in
the world, and Bob Bowman certainly isn't the only world class coach.

"Donald Graft" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wSyYb.53869$uV3.123488@attbi_s51...

Quoted message said:

Sorry, I lend more credence to Michael Phelps. Get his
DVD. He explains it all in there (along with his coach).

Don

"diablo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I personally do not agree with that line of thinking. I'm usually

intrigued

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

by progressive-in-conventions-face-booyah! types of stroke mechanics,

but in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this case, i do not agree.

as a drill to teach undulation, perhaps, but it still wouldn't be as

good as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

breaststroke arms/dolphin legs.

its more than possible to employ adequate undulation without lifting the head.

"Al" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MPG.1a9c2789a9458cab98973a@mayonews...

Quoted message said:

In article <SGfYb.338895$na.500430@attbi_s04>, [email hidden] says...
> "rtk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

> > I tried again using Plugin instead of Flash or Shockwave. I made

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > file so tiny that if my stroke didn't look bad to begin with it

sure

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > does now. But now I can blame the file; I'm not compressed - the

movie

Quoted message said:

> > is. Anyhow, for how not to (probably):
> >

personal.psu.eduMothstroke.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> Thank you, that works good now. You asked for comments, so I would agree with Michael Phelps
> that it is important to breathe on every

stroke

Quoted message said:

> to get the proper dolphin undulation. You are very flat when you do

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> breathe. You're not getting the body dolphin action that adds

considerable

Quoted message said:

> propulsion to the stroke. IMHO, of course. :-)
>
> I highly recommend Michael Phelps's DVD on butterfly. It is awesome.
>
> Don

Boy, I'm going to sound even sillier than usual disagreeing with

Michael

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Phelps, but breathing every stroke as a matter of course doesn't sound like good advice to me.
Or is he just recommending this as a stroke drill to "feel" the dolphin action? At least in my
case, raising my head burns up more energy than the benefit of the breath provides -

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

isn't really required to get the dolphin action going (although I can see how it might for
someone just starting out...)

Throughout my swimming career, two breaths in a row in fly (or a

breath

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on your first stroke off the wall) was one of the most egregious sins possible.

Then again, Phelps' 100 fly is 10 seconds faster than mine ever was

:-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone happen to know if his opinion on fly/breathing represents the current thinking in
general?

Next time I'm in the pool I'll try a few breaths in a row - all my old coaches likely to
assault me for this are back in Florida, California

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the hereafter. Minnesota is safe in this regard :-)

- Al

I tried breathing more often today and had a spaz attack with each breath until I found myself doing
vertical butterfly. It wasn't faster, at least not in the direction I wanted. I do have a kick in
spite of avoiding breathing. The fish I have in 5 tanks and 2 ponds all undulate like crazy without
coming up for breath; why can't I? I don't think it's a gill issue. However, I will keep trying and
I'm grateful for your suggestion.

rtk

Donald Graft said:

"rtk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I tried again using Plugin instead of Flash or Shockwave. I made the file so tiny that if my
stroke didn't look bad to begin with it sure does now. But now I can blame the file; I'm not
compressed - the movie is. Anyhow, for how not to (probably):
personal.psu.eduMothstroke.htmlOpen ↗

Thank you, that works good now. You asked for comments, so I would agree with Michael Phelps that
it is important to breathe on every stroke to get the proper dolphin undulation. You are very flat
when you do not breathe. You're not getting the body dolphin action that adds considerable
propulsion to the stroke. IMHO, of course. :-)

I highly recommend Michael Phelps's DVD on butterfly. It is awesome.

Don