it's snow problem

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I have a question for all of you facing cycling in the current snow conditions.

Given a choice of routes between the rather better plowed main roads and the less plowed
secondary streets ; which do you choose?

On my commute, in milder weather conditions I usually get off the main city streets where
possible and use the residential streets. there is less traffic which is always preferable. But
in this weather I'm begining to wonder which is safer; a plowed road with lots of traffic or an
unplowed road with little traffic?

Depends: Do you feel like you can reasonably take the lane on the plowed roads? If so, I'd go that
route. If there's a lot of traffic such that you might have to hug the shoulder where the plows left
the snow, then I'd stick to the unplowed secondary roads.

At least you have a choice; when I was riding my bike to school in the winter, there was only
one route.

....

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:33:52 GMT, "loki" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Given a choice of routes between the rather better plowed main roads and the less plowed secondary
streets ; which do you choose?

Personally, I'm probably out plowing in that situation. I recommend doing whatever it takes not to
share a road with a plow -- if the main road is so well plowed that they're not plowing it, good. If
the less plowed secondary is so ignored that they're not plowing it, good.

If you ride where a plow is running, and the driver fails to notice you or to properly raise his
plow and turn off his sander, you could be hurt or killed by snow or road debris flying off the
plow, or by a collision with the plow blade itself, and the sand/salt coming out of the spreader
would hurt you and damage your bike. If there's a puddle, the plow will send that excessively cold
water directly onto you, drenching you. Visibility can be TERRIBLE while plowing roads; snow and
salt and dirt fly up off the plow blade onto the windshield very suddenly, reducing visibility to
zero until the windshield wipers can catch up. The plow driver, meanwhile, has to remember what was
in front of him and behind him, and brake/steer appropriately.

On the weather channel last night, they showed a clip of a pedestrian on a sidewalk getting knocked
down by snow flying off a snowplow -- and the second plow drive, following the first one, was unable
to see the pedestrian who blended into the snow (due to the fact that he was covered in snow, so
well camouflaged).

If you ride in the snow, it may be a good idea to wait for the storm to stop and the plows
to catch up.
--
Rick Onanian

"loki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On my commute, in milder weather conditions I usually get off

the main city

Quoted message said:

streets where possible and use the residential streets. there is

less

Quoted message said:

traffic which is always preferable. But in this weather I'm

begining to

Quoted message said:

wonder which is safer; a plowed road with lots of traffic or an

unplowed

Quoted message said:

road with little traffic?

It really depends on the exact conditions. If the road with the traffic is clear then it could well
be better. If it's so messy that it's hard to stay up then it's better elsewhere. The nice part is
that falling on ice we slide instead of getting road rash and with enough snow we don't even bruise.

Doug For email, a sense of wonder.

Rick Onanian said:

loki said:

Given a choice of routes between the rather better plowed main roads and the less plowed secondary
streets ; which do you choose?

Personally, I'm probably out plowing in that situation. I recommend doing whatever it takes not to
share a road with a plow -- if the main road is so well plowed that they're not plowing it, good.
If the less plowed secondary is so ignored that they're not plowing it, good.

If you ride where a plow is running, and the driver fails to notice you or to properly raise his
plow and turn off his sander, you could be hurt or killed by snow or road debris flying off the
plow, or by a collision with the plow blade itself, and the sand/salt coming out of the spreader
would hurt you and damage your bike. If there's a puddle, the plow will send that excessively cold
water directly onto you, drenching you. Visibility can be TERRIBLE while plowing roads; snow and
salt and dirt fly up off the plow blade onto the windshield very suddenly, reducing visibility to
zero until the windshield wipers can catch up. The plow driver, meanwhile, has to remember what
was in front of him and behind him, and brake/steer appropriately.

On the weather channel last night, they showed a clip of a pedestrian on a sidewalk getting
knocked down by snow flying off a snowplow -- and the second plow drive, following the first one,
was unable to see the pedestrian who blended into the snow (due to the fact that he was covered in
snow, so well camouflaged).

If you ride in the snow, it may be a good idea to wait for the storm to stop and the plows to
catch up.

I think there is a lot in favor of this reasoning!

Some of the plow people around here are clearly idiots. We've had no end of bad situations where
entire lines of mailboxes along the street have been taken down by plows; people (myself among
them), buried by snow from passing plows while shoveling walks; and no shortage of damage to parked
cars, sometimes days after a storm. I don't think it is possible to underestimate the damage these
guys, particularly the city fellows it seems, can do you.

My primary concern when riding home during plowing ops in or shortly after a snowfall is
encountering a plowing truck. I'd try to avoid them even if it means working a bit harder pedaling
through deeper snow of a not yet attended to street.

SMH

In article <[email hidden]>,

loki said:

Oh, I saw Idiot Cyclist of the Month last week:

I'm on my way to work one evening [19:30 so it is full dark in similar snow conditions as above &
lit up like a 'christmas tree' as a co-worker described me once] when another bike turns on to
the road in front of me: no lights whatsoever. Coming up to a cross street he, without looking
back and without signalling, moves to the left to be in the left turn position [though the street
widens a bit there is no separate left turn lane] in front of a car. He had enough room but the
driver was understandably annoyed and taps the horn.

Maybe the rider was relying on some sort of mirror. OTOH if he wouldn't invest in lights, probably
wouldn't buy a mirror either. Not that a mirror would have been appropriate -- a shoulder check
could have alerted the driver that the rider was up to something.

Quoted message said:

at the intersection the car driver taps the horn again because I assume he does not realize that
the bike is where it should be to make a left turn.

A signal certainly would have helped there.

I get to see all kinds of mixtures of proper and "improper" cycling styles, too. Like the ones who
properly ride in the street, even well away from the door zone, but cross intersections by riding
through the crosswalk. Maybe such inconsistency is worse than plain 'ol, consistently bad POB
riding styles.

Quoted message said:

My atttude, rather coldy, was that I hoped he didn't reproduce before he Darwined himself.

At least he got some of it right (the direction positioning thing). I just hope he gets the rest of
it soon. And I hope he doesn't drive the same way. Unfortunately, too many drivers do.

cheers, Tom

--
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[point] bc [point] ca

"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

If you ride in the snow, it may be a good idea to wait for the storm to stop and the plows to
catch up.

Snow plows are usually pretty easy to spot coming up behind, they're the one vehicle I'll make an
exception for & get off the road. A lot of times these guys have been up all night, and, by
definition, the visibility is usually poor. I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to plow
around me, either. Other than that, snow is no reason to stay home.

"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

loki said:

Given a choice of routes between the rather better plowed main roads and the less plowed
secondary streets ; which do you choose?

Personally, I'm probably out plowing in that situation. I recommend doing whatever it takes not to
share a road with a plow -- if the main road is so well plowed that they're not plowing it, good.
If the less plowed secondary is so ignored that they're not plowing it, good.

I hadn't considered that - snowplows that is. Stupid of me; I've seen them of course but didn't
consider them coming up behind me. Though I am lit up fairly well: Two rear blinkies with different
flash patterns; on my backpack, one on the bike; DOT approved reflective strips on the backpack. a
forward light; plus I received a gift of those little motion sensitive flashers on the wheels; PLUS
the usual reflectors.

I did see that video of the guy almost getting nailed. Scary. But given the road conditions I am
taking the entire lane and I think would be hard to miss with all the lights. Plus I don't 'think'
Guelph operates those big bruisers on city streets.

--
'And then one day you find, Ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run You missed
the starting gun' -pink floyd

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

traffic which is always preferable. But in this weather I'm begining to wonder which is safer; a
plowed road with lots of traffic or an unplowed road with little traffic?

Depends: Do you feel like you can reasonably take the lane on the plowed roads? If so, I'd go that
route. If there's a lot of traffic such that you might have to hug the shoulder where the plows
left the snow, then I'd stick to the unplowed secondary roads.

The thing that bothers me about the main streets is what I call the chop: churned up snow that has
a gravelly consistency over top of frozen asphalt. It's negotiable without taking a spill - as long
a vehicle doesn't startle me or throw off a spray on me and the chop isn't too deep.

The residential roads: Well if they are completely unplowed that's slow going but manageable. But
once a few autos have driven through it the ruts makes things difficult. I have the choice of
trying to follow a rut or avoiding them. Crossing over the ruts [like at the throwoff from
cleared drives and side streets] is where it gets difficult. Of course a fall on the res road is
less like to end up with me under a vehicle I guess. [*Fingers crossed* I have not yet taken a
spill this winter.]

The ideal winter road is one with the snow packed down solid: provides good traction but isn't a
tough slog. Salt melted roads are hard on the bike 'course.

--
'And then one day you find, Ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run You missed
the starting gun' -pink floyd

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 03:56:55 GMT, "loki" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

But given the road conditions I am taking the entire lane and I think would be hard to miss with
all the lights. Plus I don't 'think' Guelph operates those big bruisers on city streets.

Chances are that the main thoroughfares are plowed by the big trucks; small highways are plowed by
big and small dumptrucks, and most residential streets are plowed by pickups and small dumptrucks.

However, the big trucks tend to have more consistent ability to see; the small dumptrucks and
pickups can see more with clear glass, but the snow and water flies up off the plow onto the
windshield and side windows (and mirrors), creating the zero visibility condition I described in my
previous message.

And, as mentioned by somebody else, the drivers are often plowing all night and day, and are likely
to be excessively tired. I always switch to a relief driver when I get too tired, but most drivers
I've met, it seems, don't.
--
Rick Onanian