Vertical Limit

richard b said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> BBC2 - Horizon - The Atkins Diet

Quoted message said:

A word of caution to the older people, and or beer drinkers (I susoect there may be a few of them
in this group) If your seriously thinking of going on the Atkin diet

Already tried it a couple of months ago.

Quoted message said:

have a liver function test before doing so.

I checked the book carefully beforehand and although it advised people with kidney problems not to
go on this diet, it said nothing about liver problems.

Quoted message said:

If your liver is not in tip top condition

Mine isn't (nothing to do with drink, just a hereditary condition).

Quoted message said:

it would be inadvisable to go on this diet as as it could well harm this vital organ.

As I said, the book gave no such warning. I started feeling ill after three or four days, but
apparently that's normal in the initial stages and you soon get over it, but after 10 days I was
feeling even worse and starting to suffer from symptoms that I know to be related to my liver (the
doctors told me to avoid eating too much fat many years ago), so I stopped the diet.

I don't think my personal experience means that the diet is bad per se, but it obviously doesn't
suit everyone. I'm still interested in the principles involved though, particularly the new
assertion that it's the protein that's primarily responsible for the fat loss, not the fat. AIUI
excess protein is a problem for the kidneys whereas excess fat is a problem for the liver, so extra
protein shouldn't be a problem for me.

Quoted message said:

I'm on a low protein diet

Well I like to lift weights now and again so extra protein is desirable for me. Not only that, but
when dieting, the body tends to lose protein (muscle) as well as fat, so a bit of weight training
and extra protein in the diet tends to offset that. I also find that eating more protein tends to
make me feel better somehow.

Quoted message said:

and if you exersize regularly you can also loose weight on this diet

The bottom line is that you can lose weight on *any* diet, provided you use more calories than you
consume, thus IMO exercise is the single most important factor. Don't starve yourself, just
exercise more. One big advantage of Atkins is that you can consume less calories without feeling
hungry all the time.

Quoted message said:

especially if you cut out beer.

Indeed, there's a lot of calories in beer. They don't call it a "beer gut" for nothing.

Quoted message said:

For some people this is not an option 🙂)

It is for me. I gave it up for many years. Perhaps I should do so again.

Paul
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In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Rooney

url=''URL:/url said:

Boo boo@spam_me_no_spam.net said:

Quoted message said:

BBC2 - Horizon - The Atkins Diet (The apparent conundrums which seem to be posed by the diet
are investigated.)

According to The Grauniad it works but they don't know how ? (But they could read the book and
find out :-).

If anyone watches it I wouldn't mind a precis.

Why wouldn't it work? - you cut out sugar!

Ok the precis is this.

It works because many people end up consuming fewer calories in their diet. When you expend more
calories than you consume you lose weight, when you expend less you put on weight.

As a slightly longer explanation. Despite the statements in the Atkins diet that you can eat as much
fat and protein as you want, the observation is that many people eat less than they did before. The
current explanation being investigated is that components related to protein in the diet act as an
appetite suppressor so that people feel satiated sooner and don't eat as much.

Mike <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/>
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing, "> ||
_`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

Paul Saunders said:

Boo wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

BBC2 - Horizon - The Atkins Diet (The apparent conundrums which seem to be posed by the diet are
investigated.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

According to The Grauniad it works but they don't know how ? (But they could read the book and
find out :-).

But a point that seems to escape almost everyody, including scientists who ought to know better, is
that it is quite possible for the Atkins diet to work and Atkins to be wrong about why it does.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If anyone watches it I wouldn't mind a precis.

Quoted message said:

Well the first 37 minutes was annoyingly wasted investigating the misleading notion that you can
eat "as many calories as you want" before finally reaching the revelation that people on the Atkins
diet simply don't want to eat a lot of calories, i.e. the appetite is reduced.

That's so elementary, and I haven't seen a single discussion on the diet which doesn't waste
acres on time considering the imaginary paradox of people pigging themselves stupid without
getting fatter.

I'm beginning to think that the general ideas behind human nutrition are just far too complicated
for the average TV presenter and medical scientist to grasp, and we're doomed to watch them going
round in circles for ever trying to understand the "Atkins paradox". I'm afraid that I have a rather
poor view of the general intelligence and scientific sophistication of most medical scientists. In
fact I think studying the paradoxical behaviour of the long-running medical science vs Atkins
controversy would be a nice study in the sociopathology of science.
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

"Chris Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> writes:

snip

Quoted message said:

I'm beginning to think that the general ideas behind human nutrition are just far too complicated
for the average TV presenter and medical scientist to grasp,

🙂)) My daughter is a medical scientist in England, I often thought she
chose this proffession instead of something that required more grey matter. I sincerely hope you're
wrong as she is helping me with my diet, (she does it for free) in my country I have to pay for
medical advice which means her advice is always infinately better.It is a condition of my will that
I must live untill 80 otherwise she doesn't inherit. Richard

and we're doomed to watch them going round in

Quoted message said:

circles for ever trying to understand the "Atkins paradox". I'm afraid that I have a rather poor
view of the general intelligence and scientific sophistication of most medical scientists. In fact
I think studying the paradoxical behaviour of the long-running medical science vs Atkins
controversy would be a nice study in the sociopathology of science.
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB,
King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK ["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

richard b wrote:

I checked the book carefully beforehand and although it advised people with kidney problems not to
go on this diet, it said nothing about liver problems.

When the liver is damaged it is impeaded from effectively carring out one of its main functions
which is to detoxify the proteins as they are broken down, if this not done effectively, it can lead
to other sytoms such as poor memory and concentration and even confusion and disorientation (that
could fit quite a few people I know) Also low protien doesn't mean trying to cut them out entirely,
which whould be almost impossible in any balanced diet Below a copy of diet considerations from the
British Liver Trust (I hope I'm not infringing on any copy right laws)

"At present, experts agree that a well balanced diet is one that is low in fat, sugar and salt and
high in fibre. Fibre is the part of fruit, vegetables or cereal that passes through your body
undigested and helps to prevent constipation. Healthy eating means getting the right balance between
different foods. A diet which includes lots of vegetables, fruit, beans and wholewheat cereals
(including bread) and is low in fat is considered the best. It is also the best diet for many people
who have liver disease."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If your liver is not in tip top condition

Mine isn't (nothing to do with drink, just a hereditary condition).

Quoted message said:

it would be inadvisable to go on this diet as as it could well harm this vital organ.

As I said, the book gave no such warning. I started feeling ill after three or four days, but
apparently that's normal in the initial stages and you soon get over it, but after 10 days I was
feeling even worse and starting to suffer from symptoms that I know to be related to my liver (the
doctors told me to avoid eating too much fat many years ago), so I stopped the diet.

I don't think my personal experience means that the diet is bad per se, but it obviously doesn't
suit everyone. I'm still interested in the principles involved though, particularly the new
assertion that it's the protein that's primarily responsible for the fat loss, not the fat. AIUI
excess protein is a problem for the kidneys whereas excess fat is a problem for the liver, so
extra protein shouldn't be a problem for me.

Quoted message said:

I'm on a low protein diet

Well I like to lift weights now and again so extra protein is desirable for me. Not only that, but
when dieting, the body tends to lose protein (muscle) as well as fat, so a bit of weight training
and extra protein in the diet tends to offset that. I also find that eating more protein tends to
make me feel better somehow.

Quoted message said:

and if you exersize regularly you can also loose weight on this diet

The bottom line is that you can lose weight on *any* diet, provided you use more calories than you
consume, thus IMO exercise is the single most important factor. Don't starve yourself, just
exercise more. One big advantage of Atkins is that you can consume less calories without feeling
hungry all the time.

Quoted message said:

especially if you cut out beer.

Indeed, there's a lot of calories in beer. They don't call it a "beer gut" for nothing.

Quoted message said:

For some people this is not an option 🙂)

It is for me. I gave it up for many years. Perhaps I should do so again.

Paul
--
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photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, richard b

url=''URL:/url said:

"Chris Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> writes:

snip

Quoted message said:

I'm beginning to think that the general ideas behind human nutrition are just far too
complicated for the average TV presenter and medical scientist to grasp,

🙂)) My daughter is a medical scientist in England, I often thought she
chose this proffession instead of something that required more grey matter. I sincerely hope
you're wrong as she is helping me with my diet, (she does it for free) in my country I have to pay
for medical advice which means her advice is always infinately better.It is a condition of my will
that I must live untill 80 otherwise she doesn't inherit. Richard

There are medical scientists, MEDICAL scientists, medical SCIENTISTS, and MEDICAL SCIENTISTS. (Hope
you follow my emphasis?) I tend to give more scientific weight to the last two categories than the
first two.

A lot of medical practice does not require a detailed scientific understanding of the subject but
instead relies on empirical observations and codes of best practice. On the other hand understanding
detailed scientific principles doesn't necessarily help with all problems in medical practice.

Mike <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/>
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing, "> ||
_`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

Martin Richardson <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>, Gordon <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Don't forget!

> Thursday - 8pm - Channel 5.

Also tonight;

ITV Wales - 7:30pm - Fishlock's Wild Tracks - Llanberis Pass

BBC2 - Horizon - The Atkins Diet (The apparent conundrums which seem to be posed by the diet are
investigated.)

Sounds like a VCR situation, or maybe a flick the channels job. ;-)

Patricide? So would you have cut the rope or not?

I virtually cut it near the beginning, and chose to watch the bumptious, obnoxious Jeremy Clarkson
talking about Alan Turing and computers. Then the Atkins Diet started, and I flicked back and forth.

The V L just didn't get my hooked at all, whereas documentaries on real climbs I find irresistible,
even if they are slightly dramatised.
--
Gordon

Martin Richardson <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>, Gordon <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Thursday - 8pm - Channel 5.

Paul

The first few minutes were enough for me!

Absolutely hilarious!

Must get back before I miss anything... ;-)

That beard - I can beleive the plot. But not the bloody grey LOTR beard.

ROTFL!
--
Gordon

richard b <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

"At present, experts agree that a well balanced diet is one that is low in fat, sugar and salt and
high in fibre. Fibre is the part of fruit, vegetables or cereal that passes through your body
undigested and helps to prevent constipation. Healthy eating means getting the right balance
between different foods. A diet which includes lots of vegetables, fruit, beans and wholewheat
cereals (including bread) and is low in fat is considered the best. It is also the best diet for
many people who have liver disease."

I aim for this diet as far as I can, due to high BP, but I have to say that like the Atkins, it
doesn't suit everyone. I eat lots of 'meat- free' stuff, Linda McCartney etc, and it's quite tasty,
but high fibre means enduring lots of flatulence, to an embarrassing degree.

The only relief is to have a nice old fashioned egg, bacon and sausage fry-up, which instantly fixes
my digestion. OK, I have veggie sausages, never eat pork and sawdust ones nowadays.
--
Gordon

Paul Rooney said:

Boo boo@spam_me_no_spam.net said:

Quoted message said:

BBC2 - Horizon - The Atkins Diet (The apparent conundrums which seem to be posed by the diet are
investigated.)

According to The Grauniad it works but they don't know how ? (But they could read the book and
find out :-).

If anyone watches it I wouldn't mind a precis.

Why wouldn't it work? - you cut out sugar!

vry cnsc, tnx.

--
Boo

Chris Malcolm said:

But a point that seems to escape almost everyody, including scientists who ought to know better,
is that it is quite possible for the Atkins diet to work and Atkins to be wrong about why it does.

Yes, you do seem to be correct about that.

Quoted message said:

In fact I think studying the paradoxical behaviour of the long-running medical science vs Atkins
controversy would be a nice study in the sociopathology of science.

ROTFL!

Paul
--
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richard b said:

When the liver is damaged it is impeaded from effectively carring out one of its main functions
which is to detoxify the proteins as they are broken down,

I didn't know that. Mine isn't actually damaged, it's just not as efficient at detoxification. I
think I read some complex stuff once about three different types of detoxification and mine is
inefficient at one of them, mainly the fat breakdown one I think.

Quoted message said:

if this not done effectively, it can lead to other sytoms such as poor memory and concentration
and even confusion and disorientation

Never suffer from those, except when I get lost in the hills and... um... er...

What were we talking about again? ;-)

Quoted message said:

Also low protien doesn't mean trying to cut them out entirely,

But anyone who does weight training needs more, right? How else are you going to build muscle?

Quoted message said:

"At present, experts agree that a well balanced diet is one that is low in fat, sugar and salt and
high in fibre.

Which experts? To be honest I don't think there are any real "experts" in the field of nutrition
yet. There are so many conflicting ideas out there right now and nobody really knows for sure how it
all works, hence the Atkins controversy.

Paul
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well the first 37 minutes was annoyingly wasted investigating the misleading notion that you can
eat "as many calories as you want" before finally reaching the revelation that people on the
Atkins diet simply don't want to eat a lot of calories, i.e. the appetite is reduced.

That's so elementary, and I haven't seen a single discussion on the diet which doesn't waste
acres on time considering the imaginary paradox of people pigging themselves stupid without
getting fatter.

I agree that it is obviously true that reducing energy intake will lead to bodyweight loss. It's not
clear to me that the converse is necessarily true : changing diet without reducing calorie intake
cannot have the same effect ?

For instance, if you change the fuel a car runs on then the efficiency will change (even allowing
for the change in calorific value of the fuel). Istm that the body's mechanisms for extracting
energy from food could have differing efficiencies for different foods. AIUI the calorific value of
food is measured by burning it in a calorimiter. This won't necessarily give the same results as
burning it in chemical reactions will it ? The reaction end points are likely to differ for one
thing, but also the body will surely be better adapted to utilising the energy from some reactions
than from others ?

I phrase these remarks as questions because of biochemistry, as Manuel "I know nothing"

--
Boo