Any validity to these assertions?

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 18:03:06 -0800, Jay Hill <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse, by putting a foot in the left pedal and swinging the right
leg over the seat to the other pedal.

Why would you want to do this, anyway?

Either the bike goes forward from the foot on the pedal, or you use the brake and have to trackstand
while not standing still, or the pedal is at the bottom of the stroke and is barely different from
keeping that foot on the ground.

Unless we're talking about this bike: skibladner.nopenny farthing.jpgOpen ↗ it should
be easiest to mount with a foot on the ground.

Quoted message said:

2) Forks on fixed gear bikes with a front brake have a higher rate of breakage because there is an
too much stress from the combination of the front wheel being driven by the fixed gear while the
front brake is applied. I assume this is invalid because the rider is either not driving or
actually braking with the fixed gear when braking with the hand brake.

Sounds invalid to me. Even an inexperienced rider would not output power into the pedals while
braking; most would offer at least a little extra braking at the rear via the pedals, whether
purposely or not.

Now, maybe on a fixed gear tandem with deaf, blind, mute riders with no sense of balance...
--
Rick Onanian

Jay Hill said:

I've heard the following two arguments from people who worked in bike shops, and I assume they
aren't valid, but I wonder enough to not dismiss them immediately, especially the second one.

1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse, by putting a foot in the left pedal and swinging the right
leg over the seat to the other pedal. Allegedly this is bad because it puts too much stress on
the bottom bracket. I assume this is invalid because the wheels' spokes will flex enough to
absorb some of the stress, and besides that the bottom bracket is strong enough that it doesn't
matter.

I've heard this argument for some time, even from Sheldon Brown who is quite knowledgeable about
bikes. There may be something to it as hopping on this way does put all your weight on one side
of the crank, at the same time as the bike is leaned over a little. Practically, I'm doubtful
that it's anything to worry about. Many cyclists habitually do this (including me) and have never
come to grief.

Quoted message said:

2) Forks on fixed gear bikes with a front brake have a higher rate of breakage because there is an
too much stress from the combination of the front wheel being driven by the fixed gear while
the front brake is applied. I assume this is invalid because the rider is either not driving or
actually braking with the fixed gear when braking with the hand brake.

Pedaling while the front brake is applied is similar to braking harder, from the perspective of the
load applied to the front wheel. It's the same situation as a freewheel bike, with this difference:
true track bikes' forks are constructed of round tubing rather than the oval shape of many road
bikes. These forks may not be as strong in the fore-and-aft direction and were not designed for use
with a front brake. This have never been a problem for my track bike, fitted with a brake, but YMMV.

Note that a fixed gear bike is not necessarily a track bike.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 18:03:06 -0800, Jay Hill <[email hidden]> may

have said:

I've heard the following two arguments from people who worked in bike shops, and I assume they
aren't valid, but I wonder enough to not dismiss them immediately, especially the second one.

1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse, by putting a foot in the left pedal and swinging the right
leg over the seat to the other pedal. Allegedly this is bad because it puts too much stress on
the bottom bracket. I assume this is invalid because the wheels' spokes will flex enough to
absorb some of the stress, and besides that the bottom bracket is strong enough that it doesn't
matter.

It may, however, break out the eye at the end of the crank where the pedal is threaded in. I do not
think the reasoning given for the caution is sound, though my experience says that there is a
different valid issue to address here. (OTOH, the only such failures that I've had happen to me were
with one-piece cranks.)

Quoted message said:

2) Forks on fixed gear bikes with a front brake have a higher rate of breakage

Well, first I'd have to see the stats on this, and then determine how many broke because the bikes
were repeatedly driven into stationary objects. Here I must question the first principle before the
rest is even stated.

Quoted message said:

because there is an too much stress from the combination of the front wheel being driven by the
fixed gear while the front brake is applied. I assume this is invalid because the rider is either
not driving or actually braking with the fixed gear when braking with the hand brake.

Utter nonsense, as far as I'm concerned. The few fixie riders I've seen, if anything, are less
likely than a conventional bike rider to use the brake while pedalling forward. In my experience,
someone aboard a conventional bike is actually more likely to be the one doing this, as a means of
facilitating trackstanding.

How often do non-carbon, non-suspension forks break, anyway? Bloody seldom, from what I can see.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Jay Hill said:

I've heard the following two arguments from people who worked in bike shops, and I assume they
aren't valid, but I wonder enough to not dismiss them immediately, especially the second one.

1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse, by putting a foot in the left pedal and swinging the right
leg over the seat to the other pedal. Allegedly this is bad because it puts too much stress on
the bottom bracket. I assume this is invalid because the wheels' spokes will flex enough to
absorb some of the stress, and besides that the bottom bracket is strong enough that it doesn't
matter.

This doesn't bother the bottom bracket, but is very stressful to the wheels. Bicycle wheels are very
strong against radial loads, but quite weak against side loads.

It's also somewhat wobbly which is dangerous in traffic or confined spaces. Don't do it.

See: sheldonbrown.comstarting.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

2) Forks on fixed gear bikes with a front brake have a higher rate of breakage because there is an
too much stress from the combination of the front wheel being driven by the fixed gear while
the front brake is applied. I assume this is invalid because the rider is either not driving or
actually braking with the fixed gear when braking with the hand brake.

That's a bunch of used cattle fodder.

Forks on fixed gear bikes _without_ front brakes have a higher rate of breakage, cause they're more
likely to crash into stuff!

Sheldon "One For Two" Brown +-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Give a man a fire, and he will stay warm for a day. | Set a man on fire, he stays warm for the
| rest of his life. |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Jay Hill
I've heard the following two arguments from people who worked in bike shops, and I assume they
aren't valid, but I wonder enough to not dismiss them immediately, especially the second one.

1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse, by putting a foot in the left pedal and swinging the
right leg over the seat to the other pedal. Allegedly this is bad because it puts too much
stress on the bottom bracket. I assume this is invalid because the wheels' spokes will flex
enough to absorb some of the stress, and besides that the bottom bracket is strong enough that
it doesn't matter.

Are you talking about clipping in the left foot and then pushing off so you're swinging the right leg over while you're on the move? I've been doing that my entire cycling life. There's no more graceful way to mount a bike in my opinion - I even try to keep my toes pointed and knee straight like an olympic gymnast while I do it.

Or maybe you're talking about holding onto a wall or parking meter while you swing over your leg? I could see how that's more stressful on the wheels.

"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jay Hill said:

1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse, by putting a foot in the left pedal and swinging the
right leg over the seat to the other pedal.

Why would you want to do this, anyway?

Either the bike goes forward from the foot on the pedal, or you use the brake and have to
trackstand while not standing still, or the pedal is at the bottom of the stroke and is barely
different from keeping that foot on the ground.

How about to mount and dismount a cyclocross bike on the fly?

Sheldon Brown:

Quoted message said:

Jay Hill wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse, by putting a foot in the left pedal and swinging the
right leg over the seat to the other pedal. Allegedly this is bad because it puts too much
stress on the bottom bracket. I assume this is invalid because the wheels' spokes will flex
enough to absorb some of the stress, and besides that the bottom bracket is strong enough
that it doesn't matter.

This doesn't bother the bottom bracket, but is very stressful to the wheels. Bicycle wheels are
very strong against radial loads, but quite weak against side loads.

It's also somewhat wobbly which is dangerous in traffic or confined spaces. Don't do it.

Fair enough when in traffic, but I see sprinters do the wobble all the time, with the bike leaning
from side to side; if so, why is lateral loading not an issue with their wheels, or is it?

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I've heard the following two arguments from people who worked in bike shops, and I assume they
aren't valid, but I wonder enough to not dismiss them immediately, especially the second one.

1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse, by putting a foot in the left pedal and swinging the right
leg over the seat to the other pedal. Allegedly this is bad because it puts too much stress on
the bottom bracket. I assume this is invalid because the wheels' spokes will flex enough to
absorb some of the stress, and besides that the bottom bracket is strong enough that it doesn't
matter.

2) Forks on fixed gear bikes with a front brake have a higher rate of breakage because there is an
too much stress from the combination of the front wheel being driven by the fixed gear while the
front brake is applied. I assume this is invalid because the rider is either not driving or
actually braking with the fixed gear when braking with the hand brake.

How do people think up this stuff? 1 is obviously wrong. 2 makes half sense. The front wheel is not
driven, so it makes no sense. What probably does happen is that someone drills a fork that did not
come drilled for a front brake. They did not drill the hole properly and that causes the fork to
break. Even if they do drill the hole properly, the crown may not be designed to take braking
forces, so it maky break.
---------------
Alex

"Doug" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jay Hill said:

1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse, by putting a foot in the left pedal and swinging the
right leg over the seat to the other pedal.

Why would you want to do this, anyway?

Either the bike goes forward from the foot on the pedal, or you use the brake and have to
trackstand while not standing still, or the pedal is at the bottom of the stroke and is barely
different from keeping that foot on the ground.

How about to mount and dismount a cyclocross bike on the fly?

To dismount you're standing on your left pedal briefly. To re-mount you jump onto the saddle then
try and find your pedals as you're rolling along.

Doesn't really apply except for that brief period dismounting. Generally you're coasting along
balanced, not trying to start moving.

Mike

Jay Hill said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse, by putting a foot in the left pedal and swinging the
right leg over the seat to the other pedal. Allegedly this is bad because it puts too much
stress on the bottom bracket. I assume this is invalid because the wheels' spokes will flex
enough to absorb some of the stress, and besides that the bottom bracket is strong enough that
it doesn't matter.

I replied:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This doesn't bother the bottom bracket, but is very stressful to the wheels. Bicycle wheels are
very strong against radial loads, but quite weak against side loads.

It's also somewhat wobbly which is dangerous in traffic or confined spaces. Don't do it.

Jose Rizal asked in his unusual font:

Quoted message said:

Fair enough when in traffic, but I see sprinters do the wobble all the time, with the bike leaning
from side to side; if so, why is lateral loading not an issue with their wheels, or is it?

They're straddling the bike. They lean it, but can't lean it all that far without bumping their legs
on the top tube.

Someone standing to one side of the bike has to lean it quite a bit farther it make it balance.

Sheldon "A Matter Of Degrees" Brown +-----------------------------------------+
| He not busy being born is busy dying. | -Bob Dylan |
+-----------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-
9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

jshill-<< I assume they aren't valid >><BR><BR> << I've heard the following two arguments from
people who worked in bike shops, >><BR><BR> << 1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse, by putting a
foot in the left pedal and swinging the right leg over the seat to the other pedal. Allegedly this
is bad because it puts too much stress on the bottom bracket. >><BR><BR> << 2) Forks on fixed gear
bikes with a front brake have a higher rate of breakage because there is an too much stress from the
combination of the front wheel being driven by the fixed gear while the front brake is applied

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

JGBSM....why the bike biz is in trouble.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

I have conducted an informal study over the years to determine why some riders have chronic spoke
breakage problems and other riders don't. I observed that ALL of my customers who were having
chronic spoke breakage problems mounted their bikes like a horse. Those customers who I convinced to
mount their bikes "normally" have had either reduced incidence or no spoke breakage. I know,
unscientific but anecdotal evidence does seem to point towards mounting the bike this way is not
kind to the wheels. Clarke www.clarkecycles.com

Quoted message said:

I've heard the following two arguments from people who worked in bike shops, and I assume they
aren't valid, but I wonder enough to not dismiss them immediately, especially the second one.

1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse, by putting a foot in the left pedal and swinging the right
leg over the seat to the other pedal. Allegedly this is bad because it puts too much stress on
the bottom bracket. I assume this is invalid because the wheels' spokes will flex enough to
absorb some of the stress, and besides that the bottom bracket is strong enough that it doesn't
matter.

2) Forks on fixed gear bikes with a front brake have a higher rate of breakage because there is an
too much stress from the combination of the front wheel being driven by the fixed gear while
the front brake is applied. I assume this is invalid because the rider is either not driving or
actually braking with the fixed gear when braking with the hand brake.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse, by putting a foot in the left pedal and swinging the
right leg over the seat to the other pedal. Allegedly this is bad because it puts too much
stress on the bottom bracket. I assume this is invalid because the wheels' spokes will flex
enough to absorb some of the stress, and besides that the bottom bracket is strong enough that
it doesn't matter.

why would you do that?

what i always do is

lean the bike towards me a little [easier] lift leg over bike lower leg raise bike now i am standing
over the top tube [same as waiting at a stop sign now] wait til ready to take off clip in on left
foot, raise to about 3:00, pedal off clip in right foot.

what is the necessity for mounting, clipping in, and taking off right away?

wle.

Jay Hill said:

I've heard the following two arguments from people who worked in bike shops, and I assume they
aren't valid, but I wonder enough to not dismiss them immediately, especially the second one.

1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse, by putting a foot in the left pedal and swinging the right
leg over the seat to the other pedal. Allegedly this is bad because it puts too much stress on
the bottom bracket. I assume this is invalid because the wheels' spokes will flex enough to
absorb some of the stress, and besides that the bottom bracket is strong enough that it doesn't
matter.

2) Forks on fixed gear bikes with a front brake have a higher rate of breakage because there is an
too much stress from the combination of the front wheel being driven by the fixed gear while
the front brake is applied. I assume this is invalid because the rider is either not driving or
actually braking with the fixed gear when braking with the hand brake.

They both sound pretty barking to me. (1) is common practice among cyclo-crossers and the loads are
probably similar to those in a bunch sprint where the bike is thrown around under the rider.

(2) sounds like total codswallop because no-one in their right mind would pedal and brake at the
same time. Moreover, pedalling only produces a few pounds of forward force because of gearing
and the size of the rear wheel; this is insignificant compared to the force needed to scrub off
your momentum at the traffic lights.

Pedalling at a fairly furious 300W and a steady 22mph translates to a propelling force of only 30N
or about 7lbf at the rear wheel. A smartish stop from the same speed, over a distance of 15 metres,
requires a braking force of 66lbf, using a total mass of 90kg/198lb. That's almost an order of
magnitude more. The fork won't be troubled even if you do keep pedalling.

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:08:48 GMT, "Clarke White" <[email hidden]>

may have said:

Quoted message said:

I've heard the following two arguments from people who worked in bike shops, and I assume they
aren't valid, but I wonder enough to not dismiss them immediately, especially the second one.

1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse...

I have conducted an informal study over the years to determine why some riders have chronic spoke
breakage problems and other riders don't. I observed that ALL of my customers who were having
chronic spoke breakage problems mounted their bikes like a horse. Those customers who I convinced
to mount their bikes "normally" have had either reduced incidence or no spoke breakage. I know,
unscientific but anecdotal evidence does seem to point towards mounting the bike this way is not
kind to the wheels. Clarke www.clarkecycles.com

Besides, getting on the right way is just plain easier, unless the top tube is at a gonadally-
hazardous altitude.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

clark-<< I have conducted an informal study over the years to determine why some riders have chronic
spoke breakage problems and other riders don't. I observed that ALL of my customers who were having
chronic spoke breakage problems mounted their bikes like a horse. >><BR><BR>

I think the problem is with the wheelbuilder, not mounting a bike like a horse. I cannot believe the
side loads on a wheel when getting on this way are more severe that when riding aggressivley. Stress
relieving and taking windout out of the spokes stress a wheel more as well...and that sure doesn't
cause spoke breakeage.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[email hidden] (wle) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1) Do not mount a bicycle like a horse, by putting a foot in the left pedal and swinging the
right leg over the seat to the other pedal. Allegedly this is bad because it puts too much
stress on the bottom bracket. I assume this is invalid because the wheels' spokes will flex
enough to absorb some of the stress, and besides that the bottom bracket is strong enough
that it doesn't matter.

why would you do that?

what i always do is

lean the bike towards me a little [easier] lift leg over bike lower leg raise bike now i am
standing over the top tube [same as waiting at a stop sign now] wait til ready to take off clip in
on left foot, raise to about 3:00, pedal off clip in right foot.

what is the necessity for mounting, clipping in, and taking off right away?

wle.

The same as Sheldon and others reccommend. I agree for a loaded bike, and it is an essential thing
to know. However, the rest of the time, LIGHTEN UP!!!!!!! I often mount my fixie by pushing off and
jumping on the saddle. Then find the swinging pedals. Or the horse mount. In one smooth motion and
while moving, I doubt the stresses on the wheels are that high.

Whitfit.

Zog The Undeniable said:

Jay Hill said:

2) Forks on fixed gear bikes with a front brake have a higher rate of breakage because there is
an too much stress from the combination of the front wheel being driven by the fixed gear
while the front brake is applied. I assume this is invalid because the rider is either not
driving or actually braking with the fixed gear when braking with the hand brake.

Quoted message said:

(2) sounds like total codswallop because no-one in their right mind would pedal and brake at the
same time.

Quite true. About the only (weak) justification for (2) I can think of is that most "real" track
bikes have round fork blades while road bikes have oval blades elongated in axis of the wheels.
Presumably this may make such blades more able to handle braking forces along that axis, but I don't
know if it is anything significant.

--

-John ([email hidden])

On 24 Jan 2004 14:26:08 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla
Campagnolo) wrote:

---clip

Quoted message said:

I think the problem is with the wheelbuilder, not mounting a bike like a horse. I cannot believe
the side loads on a wheel when getting on this way are more severe that when riding aggressivley.
Stress relieving and taking windout out of the spokes stress a wheel more as well...and that sure
doesn't cause spoke breakeage.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

------------------

I think you're right, Peter.

As a modest 7k rider of short rides, 180 pound "horsemounter" , I can reflect on no spoke breakage
during the past 20k mi, mainly on 27" aluminum wheels with straight-guage spokes, also 700c's. I stress-
relieve, tension and true my own; and prior I'd break an occasional driveside spoke on ordinary,
untreated wheels.

One may conjure a mental image of excessive bike-lean in the horsemount process, but in fact the
bike remains close to vertical. Both hands on the top bars, the upper torso is moves forward and
rightward over the top tube to compensate for the right leg still on the bike left. And one doesn't
jump on the left pedal, instead a smooth step. The weight distribution favors the front wheel.

Give it a try and observe -- weight placed as preliminary to a hand stand on the front wheel as it
slowly moves.

If there are additional stresses on the spokes/wheels, they don't show themselves to me. And one
would expect at least a rare spoke snap during the mounting -- anyone observe one of these?

I enjoy horsemounting because it's fun, easy, fast, natural (to me).

Otherwise it's clomp, clomp, straddle, step & go -- mechanical and without grace. 'jus my opinion.

Bruce Ball Colo Spgs