2 Chainring questions

David L. Johnson said:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:27:20 -0500, Q. wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, what is the working difference between ramped, and flat chainrings ... In the real world,
does it matter that much?

No.

yes it does. with unramped, the chain takes longer to pick up, and you have to "overshoot" the front
der cage to help it along. ramped & pinned chain wheels, /with the correct chain for which they are
designed/, need no overshoot and are a much faster smoother shift.

jb

Quoted message said:

yes it does.

What he said.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

ZeeExSixAre said:

Quoted message said:

yes it does.

What he said.

That's debateable. I've used both and have found that a matched, well adjusted front derailer/crank
combo without ramped and pinned rings can shift just as quickly and smoothly. It might take a bit
more fuss and tinkering but it can be done.

Robert Strickland

jim beam said:

David L. Johnson said:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:27:20 -0500, Q. wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, what is the working difference between ramped, and flat chainrings ... In the real world,
does it matter that much?

No.

yes it does. with unramped, the chain takes longer to pick up, and you have to "overshoot" the
front der cage to help it along. ramped & pinned chain wheels, /with the correct chain for which
they are designed/, need no overshoot and are a much faster smoother shift.

This belief is about half marketing hype, and half resulting from poor shifter design. Have you
tried shifting chainrings that don't have ramps and pins? I have many different rings, which I swap
in and out depending on my mood and conditioning. Some have ramps, some have variable-depth teeth,
some are just plain. Given reasonable adjustment, they all shift just fine. I also found that the
shifting difference is minimal between old-style un-contoured cassettes and new ones (there were
both styles for 8-speed Campy) with all the little contours. They all shift fine.

Now, it is true that Shimano front derailleurs with indexed shifting are harder to adjust correctly.
But that is more a result of the decision to use a one-click indexed shift, which (in older designs)
had no trim adjustment. Without being able to change the position of the cage based on which
cassette sprocket is being used, it is harder to get the thing to shift at all. But that doesn't
suggest to me that ramps and pins help, rather it suggests that the Campy front shifter mode, not
really indexed, works better. Even so, my mountain bike manages to shift fine with un-pinned
chainrings and Shimano shifters.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a _`\(,_ | conclusion. --
George Bernard Shaw (_)/ (_) |

Robert Strickland said:

ZeeExSixAre said:

Quoted message said:

yes it does.

What he said.

...which, BTW, is important with indexed shifting since you can't overshoot.

Quoted message said:

That's debateable. I've used both and have found that a matched, well adjusted front derailer/crank
combo without ramped and pinned rings can shift just as quickly and smoothly. It might take a bit
more fuss and tinkering but it can be done.

Well, the question was:
: Also, what is the working difference between ramped, and flat chainrings ... In the real world,
: does it matter that much?

So, "a bit more fuss and tinkering" sounds like a real world working difference that matters.

Quoted message said:

Robert Strickland

--
Rick Onanian

David L. Johnson said:

Rick Onanian said:

: Also, what is the working difference between ramped, and flat chainrings ... In the real world,
: does it matter that much?

So, "a bit more fuss and tinkering" sounds like a real world working difference that matters.

You're quibbling, Rick. If a well-adjusted derailleur shifts fine without such things, then why are
they needed? So you can still shift even when the derailleur is out of adjustment?

You're right; this is minor, inconsequential quibbling, even by usenet standards. They
aren't "needed"; but I'm happy to avoid fuss and/or tinkering when good adjustment can be
found more easily.
--
Rick Onanian

David L. Johnson said:

jim beam said:

David L. Johnson said:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:27:20 -0500, Q. wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

>Also, what is the working difference between ramped, and flat chainrings ... In the real world,
>does it matter that much?

No.

yes it does. with unramped, the chain takes longer to pick up, and you have to "overshoot" the
front der cage to help it along. ramped & pinned chain wheels, /with the correct chain for which
they are designed/, need no overshoot and are a much faster smoother shift.

This belief is about half marketing hype, and half resulting from poor shifter design. Have you
tried shifting chainrings that don't have ramps and pins?

of course! rode them for more years than i care to remember. i used to be hard core retro and only
switched to indexed about 3 years ago.

Quoted message said:

I have many different rings, which I swap in and out depending on my mood and conditioning. Some
have ramps, some have variable-depth teeth, some are just plain. Given reasonable adjustment,
they all shift just fine. I also found that the shifting difference is minimal between old-style
un-contoured cassettes and new ones (there were both styles for 8-speed Campy) with all the
little contours. They all shift fine.

agreed that they all shift successfully, and to be honest, i was not wowed by this new fangled
technology while i was using a sram chain on a shimano crank. but when i tried shimano chain, the
difference was immediate & remarkable. /much/ quicker pickup and much smoother shifting under more
load. campy doesn't seem as picky about chains.

Quoted message said:

Now, it is true that Shimano front derailleurs with indexed shifting are harder to adjust
correctly. But that is more a result of the decision to use a one-click indexed shift, which (in
older designs) had no trim adjustment. Without being able to change the position of the cage based
on which cassette sprocket is being used, it is harder to get the thing to shift at all. But that
doesn't suggest to me that ramps and pins help, rather it suggests that the Campy front shifter
mode, not really indexed, works better. Even so, my mountain bike manages to shift fine with un-
pinned chainrings and Shimano shifters.

well, we don't agree here. i'm a convert to indexing because it works better. once it's set up
right. and yes, with one click, setup /is/ harder, but it's wonderful to use and amazingly reliable
once done. i'd never go back.

jb

On 2004-01-23, Rick Onanian <[email hidden]> wrote: [snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You're quibbling, Rick. If a well-adjusted derailleur shifts fine without such things, then why
are they needed? So you can still shift even when the derailleur is out of adjustment?

You're right; this is minor, inconsequential quibbling, even by usenet standards. They
aren't "needed"; but I'm happy to avoid fuss and/or tinkering when good adjustment can be
found more easily.
--
Rick Onanian

To be real controversial: I don't find any great need for indexed shifting on the rear cogs either.
Probably this is because I grew up in the days before indexed shifting was invented, but when it
came in I didn't notice any particular advantage. I had it on one bike but when it ceased to work
well and was difficult to adjust, perhaps because of wear in the derailleur, I just did away with it
and don't miss it at all.

Anthony

--
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