Ankling

Also, does the style depend on the cadence you use? I'm sure Lance's pedaling style is suited to his high cadence riding, whereas Ullrich's helps him grind the big gears.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by ebrunner
Out of curiosity, what exactly is the Burke style? And what are the different characteristics/styles of Armstrong, Ullrich and Pantani?

Here's a link containing a picture of the style. (They simply call it "ankling" but it's not what I call ankling.)

http://www.bikefitting.com/English/Theory/LongFoot.html

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by ebrunner
Also, does the style depend on the cadence you use? I'm sure Lance's pedaling style is suited to his high cadence riding, whereas Ullrich's helps him grind the big gears.

Cadence is probably a factor. On climbs at least Ullrich looks like a traditonal ankler and that can help turn a big gear.

I don't know whether LA pedalled differently before he went spin crazy. Anyone have footage?

If you look at pro riders now, they all ride with the heel raised throughout the stroke, toes down. This was invented by Anquetil.

More than anything it was the pedalling action that set Maitre Jacques apart; sitting very high in the saddle, his toes were pointed almost vertically down all the time. I challenge you to try it, on the turbo first. Just sit on the bike and 'click in'. Now, lift your heels, both feet, until you can't move them any more and your ankle is 'locked'. Now pedal, without ever lowering your heel - it almost feels like pushing forward, not down. Now's the hard bit. On the upstroke, pull as hard as you can, always without dropping your heel. You will find the amount of pull you've got now much greater than normal. Start to increase the intensity. After a few minutes, your calf muscles will give up.

Anquetil himself reckoned that without toestraps - i.e. being unable to pull - he would have lost 5kph, because he pedalled like that all the time. ALL THE TIME. Now if you can do it, maybe you can ride as fast as he did in a time trial

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Roy Gardiner
If you look at pro riders now, they all ride with the heel raised throughout the stroke, toes down. This was invented by Anquetil.

A lot of them do (to a certain extent). Not convinced they copied J.A. consciously or that he was the inventor of "toe down". I know people who do it who've never heard of him.

Quoted post said:

Now, lift your heels, both feet, until you can't move them any more and your ankle is 'locked'. Now pedal, without ever lowering your heel - it almost feels like pushing forward, not down. Now's the hard bit. On the upstroke, pull as hard as you can, always without dropping your heel. You will find the amount of pull you've got now much greater than normal. Start to increase the intensity. After a few minutes, your calf muscles will give up.

I don't know about the calves giving up, but cramping up is a distinct possibility at that extreme ankle angle. Jaques seems to have done his best to remove calf activity from his technique altogether. Which is fair enough in view of the results.

I once had Anquetil following me for a good hour. I never thought to ask what he thought of my ankling. One of life's missed opportunities perhaps...

By locking your ankle out in a toes down position, you effectively shorten the lever of your foot compared to a foot flat position. This will take some of the pressure off of the calves that would normally be applied during foot flat pedalling. Pedalling toes down will require you to contract and lock your calf muscle, but you really don;t need much force to do that in this case. Yes, you may be prone to cramping at first in this position, but in a sense it works for certain riders who get used to it.

If you want a good example of ankling, watch some pretty good track sprinters. These guys tend to really ankle when they aren't going at max speed, but the faster your cadence gets, the more you tend to move away from ankling and move to a more toes down style of pedalling. Even at full tilt these guys ankle, but the do it with the heel always above the ball of the foot.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by andrewbradley
I once had Anquetil following me for a good hour

Wow. 1oz 1st hand knowledge beats 1 ton of theory, every time, so I offer what I say as comments only.

Quoted post said:

A lot of them do (to a certain extent). Not convinced they copied J.A. consciously or that he was the inventor of "toe down". I know people who do it who've never heard of him.

Comparing the pre-JA era (1950s and before) to today, it seems to me universal that riders sit higher and keep the heel much higher than before. However, I would be sure to agree that many modern riders - even professionals - would neither know nor care who JA was. It's just 'the way it's done'.

As to JA inventing it, I've never read anything to say he didn't. And looking at pix of top pros from the 40s and 50s, they seem to sit so low and 'squat' compared to today, except JA. Even in the 1953 GP des Nations he's high saddle, flat back, crouched low, toes down. It was years before the rest of the world caught up. Look at the photos - the mountain climbing shots show it best; he's still so low his head is next to other guys' shoulders!

I'll have to dig out some of the old stuff I read up about this; daunting task...

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by taras0000
By locking your ankle out in a toes down position, you effectively shorten the lever of your foot compared to a foot flat position. This will take some of the pressure off of the calves that would normally be applied during foot flat pedalling. Pedalling toes down will require you to contract and lock your calf muscle, but you really don;t need much force to do that in this case. Yes, you may be prone to cramping at first in this position, but in a sense it works for certain riders who get used to it

That's right, I was trying to work out why a riders calves might hurt with a technique that requires little tension from them.

Quoted post said:

If you want a good example of ankling, watch some pretty good track sprinters. These guys tend to really ankle when they aren't going at max speed, but the faster your cadence gets, the more you tend to move away from ankling and move to a more toes down style of pedalling. Even at full tilt these guys ankle, but the do it with the heel always above the ball of the foot.

Makes sense to me, although whether they use much calf power when spinnning fast is an interesting question. As i mentioned elsewhwere if you were to just block the gastrocnemius (calf muscle) which crosses the knee-joint too your ankle would open up. (There's also the smaller soleus calf muscle which doesn't cross the knee)
.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Roy Gardiner
Wow

Hey, did I tell you the one about Poupou and the twelve sprocket?

Quoted post said:

As to JA inventing it, I've never read anything to say he didn't. And looking at pix of top pros from the 40s and 50s, they seem to sit so low and 'squat' compared to today, except JA.

For sure Anquetil is the recognised "inventor" of a particular way of applying force to the pedals. How well the concept actually translates into measurable differences in pedal forces and power is another issue and alas we'll never see him in a lab.

You are right about saddle height too, but I still think that people with weak calves will often seek to spare them via "toe down". A cleat moved back would help too.

There's a revolutionary new style waiting to happen with the cleat attatched to the heel. 🙂

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by andrewbradley
Hey, did I tell you the one about Poupou and the twelve sprocket?

I love to hear all 1st hand stories from the cycling world. When you've read as much as me, they're gold dust. In 'Maitre Jacques' I don't think there was one cycling story I handn't heard before (if in less detail).

Roll it on! 🙂

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Roy Gardiner
I love to hear all 1st hand stories from the cycling world. When you've read as much as me, they're gold dust. In 'Maitre Jacques' I don't think there was one cycling story I handn't heard before (if in less detail).

Roll it on! 🙂

I might write my anecdotes up one day. The long and short of Poupou and the 12 is that he was non too impressed with it. I wonder what he thinks of the 11's of today. Anyway that's enough name-dropping for one thread.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by andrewbradley

For sure Anquetil is the recognised "inventor" of a particular way of applying force to the pedals. How well the concept actually translates into measurable differences in pedal forces and power is another issue and alas we'll never see him in a lab.

You are right about saddle height too, but I still think that people with weak calves will often seek to spare them via "toe down". A cleat moved back would help too.

There's a revolutionary new style waiting to happen with the cleat attatched to the heel. 🙂 [/B]

Heel/cleat pedalling does not have one advantage to offer.
Anquetil's high saddle position was the result of a combination
of toes down pedalling and the strong back position that is used
with his technique.
While it is not possible to get him in a lab, there is no reason
why his style of linear pedalling cannot be fully researched.
To begin with, consider the effect on gearing that using 50 of
the 52 cogs on a chainring in your main pedal power application
strokes will have; this is the result of eliminating the dead spot
area with natural pedalling. Then there is the ability to combine
arm and leg power when riding in the saddle which is partly
responsible for the elimination of the dead spot area.
The revolutionary style has already happened, it began over
half a century ago when Anquetil started racing but pedalling
and equipment continues to veer off in the wrong direction.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by n crowley
Heel/cleat pedalling does not have one advantage to offer.
Anquetil's high saddle position was the result of a combination
of toes down pedalling and the strong back position that is used
with his technique.
While it is not possible to get him in a lab, there is no reason
why his style of linear pedalling cannot be fully researched.
To begin with, consider the effect on gearing that using 50 of
the 52 cogs on a chainring in your main pedal power application
strokes will have; this is the result of eliminating the dead spot
area with natural pedalling. Then there is the ability to combine
arm and leg power when riding in the saddle which is partly
responsible for the elimination of the dead spot area.
The revolutionary style has already happened, it began over
half a century ago when Anquetil started racing but pedalling
and equipment continues to veer off in the wrong direction.

Hay Mr. Crowley.

We haven't heard from you for a while. Have you managed to collect the evidence that you said you would from the group of back pain riders that you said you would collect to prove your technique works? I guess by now they should be winning the Irish National Champs by now. Anyway, hope you are keeping well.

For other users of the site take a look at other threads with crowley post's in; he has invented a 'new' way of pedaling based upon a video with JA in it. His technique, as he claimed, could cure cycling back pain and improve performance. Last time he posted he was off to start collecting data from juniors and back pain sufferers to prove his technique works.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by 2LAP
Hay Mr. Crowley.

We haven't heard from you for a while. Have you managed to collect the evidence that you said you would from the group of back pain riders that you said you would collect to prove your technique works? I guess by now they should be winning the Irish National Champs by now. Anyway, hope you are keeping well.

For other users of the site take a look at other threads with crowley post's in; he has invented a 'new' way of pedaling based upon a video with JA in it. His technique, as he claimed, could cure cycling back pain and improve performance. Last time he posted he was off to start collecting data from juniors and back pain sufferers to prove his technique works.

Thanks, all in good time, I am giving the ROTOR inventors some
time to cover their expenses, with Anquetil's pedalling there will
be no need for ROTORCRANKS.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by n crowley
Thanks, all in good time, I am giving the ROTOR inventors some
time to cover their expenses, with Anquetil's pedalling there will
be no need for ROTORCRANKS.

Thought you might say that!!!!!!!!! 🙂

Not sure what JA and ROTOR have to do with each other. But given that the ROTOR cranks don't provide much if any advantage to riders I don't think they will ever make much money!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by andrewbradley
Makes sense to me, although whether they use much calf power when spinnning fast is an interesting question. As i mentioned elsewhwere if you were to just block the gastrocnemius (calf muscle) which crosses the knee-joint too your ankle would open up. (There's also the smaller soleus calf muscle which doesn't cross the knee)
.

Actually, the soleus makes of 65% of the calf compartment. This muscle is used during all ankle openings, but is isolated when you are trying to open your ankle up when your knee has a fair bend in it (standing calf raise works the gastrocnemius, seated calf raise works the soleus). Tis happens because the gastrocnemius muscle which crosses the knee joint, is already shortened and any contraction doesn not contribute any more to raising the heel (kinda like trying to hiccup while you are bent over). I can say that at high cadence spinning, your calf and soleus muscle contribute little to pedalling power even though there may be movement in the ankle joint. During high cadence pedalling, like i mention earlier, the ankle pretty much locks itself. At this point the muscles of the calf compartment seem to serve more like a cable then and actual power provider. The only reason that any ankling would be going on here is because the calf muscles are stretching at the onset of the downstroke (calves are weaker here, gastrocs are not in a position to contract strongly), and the fact that the foot can rotate about the pedal axle.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by taras0000
Actually, the soleus makes of 65% of the calf compartment. This muscle is used during all ankle openings, but is isolated when you are trying to open your ankle up when your knee has a fair bend in it (standing calf raise works the gastrocnemius, seated calf raise works the soleus).

I stand corrected on relative size (I'll check you r figure out though). The effect you describe here is surely a factor in why most ankle opening tends to take place towards the bottom of the stroke.
Let me make the point better: for the calves to do work the ankle needs to open (neglecting elasticity effects) but an opening ankle doesn't necessarily indicate a calf that is doing work.

Quoted post said:

I can say that at high cadence spinning, your calf and soleus muscle contribute little to pedalling power even though there may be movement in the ankle joint.

I agree with you, although you will hear that "ankling" of one kind or another is important to high cadence pedalling or even what makes it possible.

Quoted post said:

During high cadence pedalling, like I mention earlier, the ankle pretty much locks itself. At this point the muscles of the calf compartment seem to serve more like a cable then and actual power provider.

Complicated question though since the soleus and the gastrocnemius can't both be "cables"
For the joint to lock as in maintain the same angle (within elasticity limits) the soleus would presumably lock and the gastroc stretch. A seemingly less wasteful solution would be to block the gastroc with the soleus either switching off or continuing to shorten. With this you would still see "ankling" but it doesn't tell you calf work being done.

Quoted post said:

The only reason that any ankling would be going on here is because the calf muscles are stretching at the onset of the downstroke (calves are weaker here, gastrocs are not in a position to contract strongly), and the fact that the foot can rotate about the pedal axle.

At very high sprinter cadence little ankle movement could well be the norm (and a lot of road riders seem to do this in their normal style) but Lance Armstrong still does noticable stuff with his ankles at his sort of "high cadences". Eyeball method says he starts his downstroke toe down (which presumably stresses the shins) then the heel goes down closing the ankle and (assuming they are fired up) stretching the calves, then you get a quick flip at the bottom.

It's interesting how riders can appear to do quite different things in accomplishing the same task.

Here's one for all you ankling proponents out there. Here's a link to the definition of power: http://www.bicyclewattage.com/modules.php?name=FAQ&myfaq=yes&id_cat=1&categories=The+Wattage+List+Power+FAQ#1

Given that, how much power do you think one can produce in the 2 to 4cm of travel you could get from ankling?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by beerco
Here's one for all you ankling proponents out there. Here's a link to the definition of power: http://www.bicyclewattage.com/modules.php?name=FAQ&myfaq=yes&id_cat=1&categories=The+Wattage+List+Power+FAQ#1

Given that, how much power do you think one can produce in the 2 to 4cm of travel you could get from ankling?

2 to 4 cm?
That would be a pretty dainty foot.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by andrewbradley
2 to 4 cm?
That would be a pretty dainty foot.

Oh, so you're going to sacrifice knee (quad) motion to get more ankle effect?

(I wonder how fast one could go if they had a bike with little tiny cranks with their femurs fixed such that they could only pedal with their ankles?)