"Carbon" tires

psycholist said:

Lately I'm seeing lots of closeouts on tires that feature "carbon." I bought a couple of tires at
my LBS today for $30 (for the pair). They're Avocet "Carbon" folding 700x23 tires. They're only
200 grams for 700x23 which seems really light.

Which LBS, and do they have any more left? That's a great price for Avocets.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗

psycholist said:

I'm a high-mileage roadie and most of my miles are on tar and gravel roads that eat up tires. I
refuse to pay $40 and $50 for tires. I buy whatever looks halfway decent and is on closeout.

Lately I'm seeing lots of closeouts on tires that feature "carbon." I bought a couple of tires at
my LBS today for $30 (for the pair). They're Avocet "Carbon" folding 700x23 tires. They're only
200 grams for 700x23 which seems really light.

Is that the feature of carbon? Lightness? Is it just marketing jazz or is there anything
beneficial about having carbon?

Tire rubber is not pure rubber, it has additives. The additive of carbon black has been present
in tires for decades, it is what makes the rubber harder and more durable and improves wet
traction. It also makes the rubber black (see latex surgical rubber tube for the "natural" color
of latex rubber).

A few years ago, some tire manufacturers decided to market colored tires and used silica instead of
carbon black, as this permitted the use of dyes to color the rubber. This resulted also in rubber
that is a little more stretchable and flexible, with results in theoretically lower rolling
resistance. They sold millions of the things. The downside is that they wear much more rapidly and
tend to have poor wet traction.

Avocet decided to fight back by ramping up the marketing spin of their carbon-based rubber compound,
which is excellent and has worked well for years. Michelin has followed this lead to an extent,
probably in part because there has been an extensive public discussion of the deficiencies of slica-
based rubbers.

Terry Morse said:

psycholist said:

Lately I'm seeing lots of closeouts on tires that feature "carbon." I bought a couple of tires at
my LBS today for $30 (for the pair). They're Avocet "Carbon" folding 700x23 tires. They're only
200 grams for 700x23 which seems really light.

Which LBS, and do they have any more left? That's a great price for Avocets.

Yeah, no kidding. Where can I get some?

Matt O.

Thanks for all the replies. I've been a huge fan of Avocet tires for years. My LBS hated me 'cuz
I went through more tires than anyone else, but I wouldn't buy his high-zoot tires. I'd only buy
his $25 Avocet Fasgrip TT 30s. They're my standby tire. But, as I said, I'm always looking for
cheaper closeouts. The Avocets he sold me yesterday were the only two he had and nobody but me
would buy them. He was about to send them back to the distributor when I showed up and took them
off his hands.

I got into Avocet Fasgrip TT 30 tires a couple of years ago after I read a post by Jobst Brandt
where he recommended them for their light weight AND high durability. Compared to what I'd been
riding before, he was certainly right.

Bob C.

psycholist said:

Thanks for all the replies. I've been a huge fan of Avocet tires for years. My LBS hated me 'cuz
I went through more tires than anyone else, but I wouldn't buy his high-zoot tires. I'd only buy
his $25 Avocet Fasgrip TT 30s. They're my standby tire. But, as I said, I'm always looking for
cheaper closeouts. The Avocets he sold me yesterday were the only two he had and nobody but me
would buy them. He was about to send them back to the distributor when I showed up and took them
off his hands.

I got into Avocet Fasgrip TT 30 tires a couple of years ago after I read a post by Jobst Brandt
where he recommended them for their light weight AND high durability. Compared to what I'd been
riding before, he was certainly right.

FWIW, I've seen a bunch of these on eBay recently, for like $15.00 a pair. However, they were 20mm,
which is too skinny for me, plus they were NOS, 15 years old -- not good for a rubber product.

Indeed, the 25mm ones that Jobst likes are my favorites too. I had them on my last bike, and they
were the best I'd ever used. My current, supposedly superfast Vittorias are no faster, don't inspire
as much confidence on descents, and probably won't last half as long. I know what I'll be replacing
them with!

Getting back to tires labeled "carbon" -- usually it refers to the tread, but I think some
(Hutchinson?) may actually have some carbon fiber in the casing. Of course it's all for show, and
doesn't make a dime's worth of difference. Unfortunately this makes it unclear whether there's
carbon in the tread, which you *do* want.

Matt O.

Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Avocet decided to fight back by ramping up the marketing spin of their carbon-based rubber
compound, which is excellent and has worked well for years. Michelin has followed this lead to an
extent, probably in part because there has been an extensive public discussion of the deficiencies
of slica-based rubbers.

Agree, the japanese made Avocet Fasgrip ROAD 30 700x28 (now accurately relabeled to 700x25) are also
my favorite tires and I still have a small stash. When my stash of japanese Avocet tires are used
up, I thought about trying out the *new* Michelin carbon 700x25 tires as I haven't heard positive
things about the newer korean made Avocet Carbon 12 tires.

Danny at crit usa had the Michelin carbon 700x23 and 700x25 for like $24 each shipped. However,
thanks to the strength of the dollar, way to go Bush, prices have really gone up as he now sells
them for something like $33 each PLUS shipping, sigh....

[email hidden] (Mrvongole) wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Tho' one must wonder, if you go through "more" tires @ $25 per. vs. purchasing a better quality
tire which would "possibly" last longer at $50 per

Which $50 tires last twice as long as $25 tires? Most $50 tires are lighter weight and wear out more
quickly than $25 tires.

Mrvongole said:

Quoted message said:

My LBS hated me 'cuz I went through more tires than anyone else, but I wouldn't buy his high-zoot
tires. I'd only buy his $25 Avocet Fasgrip TT

Tho' one must wonder, if you go through "more" tires @ $25 per. vs. purchasing a better quality
tire which would "possibly" last longer at $50 per...well, you do the math.

This is true, but Avocets are known for lasting *longer* than most others.

Matt O.

Ken <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Mrvongole) wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Tho' one must wonder, if you go through "more" tires @ $25 per. vs. purchasing a better quality
tire which would "possibly" last longer at $50 per

Which $50 tires last twice as long as $25 tires? Most $50 tires are lighter weight and wear out
more quickly than $25 tires.

Dear Ken,

These are a bit heavier and would be hard to wear out by pedalling:

://www.jcwhitney.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10111&storeId=10101&langId=-
1&productId=209059&mediaCode=ZX&appId=63780

The amount of rubber and carcass that you get for $50 here kind of puts our bicycle-tire pricing in
perspective.

Carl Fogel

Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"psycholist" <[email hidden]> writes:

<rubber>

Quoted message said:

A few years ago, some tire manufacturers decided to market colored tires and used silica instead
of carbon black, as this permitted the use of dyes to color the rubber. This resulted also in
rubber that is a little more stretchable and flexible, with results in theoretically lower rolling
resistance. They sold millions of the things. The downside is that they wear much more rapidly and
tend to have poor wet traction.

Avocet decided to fight back by ramping up the marketing spin of their carbon-based rubber
compound, which is excellent and has worked well for years. Michelin has followed this lead to an
extent, probably in part because there has been an extensive public discussion of the deficiencies
of slica-based rubbers.

Tim-

I have heard a lot of talk about this, but I haven't seen much in the way of evidence. I've heard
about a test by a german bike magazine that supposedly revealed the superiority of carbon rubber,
but I;ve never seen it. Some searching turned up this: dk-content.depdfOpen ↗
archiv/tests/breitreifen_
0703.pdf

tinyurl.com36famOpen ↗

I can't read german, but a little work with Google translator doesn't seem to show that superiority.
(though I don't know exactly what 'dual' or 'single' compounds are.)

-Owen

Owen Pope said:

I have heard a lot of talk about this, but I haven't seen much in the way of evidence. I've heard
about a test by a german bike magazine that supposedly revealed the superiority of carbon rubber,
but I;ve never seen it. Some searching turned up this: dk-content.depdfOpen ↗
archiv/tests/breitreifen_
0703.pdf

tinyurl.com36famOpen ↗

I can't read german, but a little work with Google translator doesn't seem to show that
superiority. (though I don't know exactly what 'dual' or 'single' compounds are.)

The test in "Tour" deals with 700x25 tires, advantages/disadvantages over 700x23 and 700x20 tires.
Not a single word about carbon black, I'm afraid.

Kjell Arne

--
brumunddal-sk.idrett.nobrumunddal-sk.idrett.noOpen ↗ Remove your clothes if you want to answer by e-mail!

"Kjell Arne Olsen" <webmaster@YOUR_CLOTHESbrumunddal-sk.idrett.no> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Owen Pope said:

I have heard a lot of talk about this, but I haven't seen much in the way of evidence. I've heard
about a test by a german bike magazine that supposedly revealed the superiority of carbon rubber,
but I;ve never seen it. Some searching turned up this: dk-content.depdfOpen ↗
archiv/tests/breitreifen_
0703.pdf

tinyurl.com36famOpen ↗

The test in "Tour" deals with 700x25 tires, advantages/disadvantages over 700x23 and 700x20 tires.
Not a single word about carbon black, I'm afraid.

Can you summarize the article and tell us what the advantages/disadvantages of using 700x25 tires
over 700x23/20. Thanks!

Kjell Arne Olsen
<webmaster@YOUR_CLOTHESbrumunddal-sk.idrett.no> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Owen Pope said:

I have heard a lot of talk about this, but I haven't seen much in the way of evidence. I've heard
about a test by a german bike magazine that supposedly revealed the superiority of carbon rubber,
but I;ve never seen it. Some searching turned up this: dk-content.depdfOpen ↗
archiv/tests/breitreifen_
0703.pdf

tinyurl.com36famOpen ↗

I can't read german, but a little work with Google translator doesn't seem to show that
superiority. (though I don't know exactly what 'dual' or 'single' compounds are.)

The test in "Tour" deals with 700x25 tires, advantages/disadvantages over 700x23 and 700x20 tires.
Not a single word about carbon black, I'm afraid.

Oh well. Thanks, though.

-Owen

bfd said:

"Kjell Arne Olsen" <webmaster@YOUR_CLOTHESbrumunddal-sk.idrett.no> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Owen Pope said:

I have heard a lot of talk about this, but I haven't seen much in the way of evidence. I've
heard about a test by a german bike magazine that supposedly revealed the superiority of carbon
rubber, but I;ve never seen it. Some searching turned up this: dk-content.depdfOpen ↗
archiv/tests/breitreifen_
0703.pdf

tinyurl.com36famOpen ↗

The test in "Tour" deals with 700x25 tires, advantages/disadvantages over 700x23 and 700x20
tires. Not a single word about carbon black, I'm afraid.

Can you summarize the article and tell us what the advantages/disadvantages of using 700x25 tires
over 700x23/20. Thanks!

Maybe some of our German literate friends could lend a hand...

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole said:

bfd said:

"Kjell Arne Olsen" <webmaster@YOUR_CLOTHESbrumunddal-sk.idrett.no> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Owen Pope <[email hidden]> wrote:

>I have heard a lot of talk about this, but I haven't seen much in the way of evidence. I've
>heard about a test by a german bike magazine that supposedly revealed the superiority of carbon
>rubber, but I;ve never seen it. Some searching turned up this: dk-content.depdfOpen ↗
>archiv/tests/breitreifen_
>0703.pdf
>
>tinyurl.com36famOpen ↗
>

The test in "Tour" deals with 700x25 tires, advantages/disadvantages over 700x23 and 700x20
tires. Not a single word about carbon black, I'm afraid.

Can you summarize the article and tell us what the advantages/disadvantages of using 700x25 tires
over 700x23/20. Thanks!

Maybe some of our German literate friends could lend a hand...

Nothing too surprising: Advantages: lower rolling resistance at same pressure greater comfort (esp.
if pressure is lowered) less likelihood of pinch flats (therefore allows lowering of pressure)

Disadvantages: greater weight greater wind resistance (they question whether this is as significant
for road use as on a track) don't fit in some frames harder to remove wheel with some brakes

Nice to see them list which tires can be mounted without tools ("werkzeuglos"😉 vs. those needing
tire levers ("Reifenhebern"😉

Peter said:

Matt O'Toole wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe some of our German literate friends could lend a hand...

Nothing too surprising: Advantages: lower rolling resistance at same pressure greater comfort (esp.
if pressure is lowered) less likelihood of pinch flats (therefore allows lowering of pressure)

Disadvantages: greater weight greater wind resistance (they question whether this is as significant
for road use as on a track) don't fit in some frames harder to remove wheel with some brakes

Nice to see them list which tires can be mounted without tools ("werkzeuglos"😉 vs. those needing
tire levers ("Reifenhebern"😉

It's a long time since I had German lessons in school, so I struggle a bit with the language, but
I've just subscribed to "Tour". Excellent round-up, but I might also add that the article
mentions a test done in Germany that couldn't find significant aerodynamic differences between 25
and 23 mm tires.

Also note that the star rating of the tires (1-5) is for puncture resistance.

Kjell Arne

--
brumunddal-sk.idrett.nobrumunddal-sk.idrett.noOpen ↗ Remove your clothes if you want to answer by e-mail!

Kjell Arne Olsen <webmaster@YOUR_CLOTHESbrumunddal-sk.idrett.no>

Quoted message said:

Also note that the star rating of the tires (1-5) is for puncture resistance.

And also note that Peter van Petegem started a trend of using 25 mm tires during springtime in
Belgium and northern France!

Kjell Arne

--
brumunddal-sk.idrett.nobrumunddal-sk.idrett.noOpen ↗ Remove your clothes if you want to answer by e-mail!