Finally Going Off-Road

"Vince" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

After many years on the road, I'm finally looking for an mtb for use off road (primarily in and
around Hampshire - where mtb = mud track rather than mountain bike).

Welcome to the club!

Quoted message said:

The geek in me wants FS with all the works but realistically I think I would be best suited with a
hard-tail (not many mountains within a hundred miles of home) and disc brakes (but plenty of muddy
bridle paths).

Don't, for one minute, think you need mountains to justify full suss. When the local bridleways
turn hard short travel full suss makes trail riding a much nicer experience and of course when
you venture further afield you've got it. The weight penalty is small, the power sapping
comments exaggerated and reliability is pretty good. I've spent the last 4 years on full suss
and wouldn't go back.

My 10p.

--
Pete /Playtime.html"]http:[email hidden]/Playtime.html

In message <[email hidden]>, Peter B <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The geek in me wants FS with all the works but realistically I think I would be best suited with
a hard-tail (not many mountains within a hundred miles of home) and disc brakes (but plenty of
muddy bridle paths).

Don't, for one minute, think you need mountains to justify full suss. When the local bridleways
turn hard short travel full suss makes trail riding a much nicer experience and of course when
you venture further afield you've got it. The weight penalty is small, the power sapping
comments exaggerated and reliability is pretty good. I've spent the last 4 years on full suss
and wouldn't go back.

We have mud as our main technical challenge in this area. I intend to buy a short-travel full
sus (just for comfort, naturally - old dears my age don't ride sideways down flint-strewn
streambeds, do they?)

--
Sue ];(🙂

Vince posted ...

Quoted message said:

The geek in me wants FS with all the works

Heheheh .. you know it makes .. er .. sense .. 😉

Quoted message said:

but realistically I think I would be best suited with a hard-tail (not many mountains within a
hundred miles of home)

Having recently ridden my own hardtail and a friends full spec' full sus' bike back-to-back for a
week in terrain varying from roads to flat fields to rolling 'wolds' type country and forestry
trails, Clumber Park etc, then I can honestly say FS has come a hell of a way since the last time I
tried it a few years ago. I didn't notice the slightly extra weight, and it certainly didn't seem
that much harder pedalling up long, but gradual rise, hills. FS is something I'm definitely going to
consider for my next bike later this year.

Quoted message said:

and disc brakes (but plenty of muddy bridle paths).

Agreed, a must in mud .. well, not a 'must', but if you're buying new, then they're a very
worthwhile consideration. I can recommend Hope hydraulics as being able to lock either wheel in a
hair's breadth, while still allowing good modulation when you're not panicking. They can be adjusted
to suit a trigger finger or a ham fist .. 😉 They also stop better than any vee's I've tried on high
traction surfaces and keep their stopping power whatever the weather/track conditions.

Quoted message said:

Any comments welcome.

I don't personally know any of the bikes mentioned ..

--
Paul

OK, I'm convinced. Some sort of FS and hydraulic disc brakes. It's back to the bike mags again...

Pedals are the next thing that worry me. I'm used to a simple toe strap on my tourer that I can slip
my foot in and out of without thinking about (I don't tighten the strap, just leave it permanently
on 'tight enough'😉. All the decent bikes now seem to have some sort of propietary bolting system to
permanently attach you to the bike. It worrys me slightly. Just how easy are they to slip on and off
on a busy road?

Vince.

(Vince) said:

After many years on the road, I'm finally looking for an mtb for use off road (primarily in and
around Hampshire - where mtb = mud track rather than mountain bike).

The geek in me wants FS with all the works but realistically I think I would be best suited with a
hard-tail (not many mountains within a hundred miles of home) and disc brakes (but plenty of muddy
bridle paths).

Ride both before you decide. Full suspension bikes are far more forgiving on any surface, and will
allow you to clean sections which your skill-level would not let you clean on a hardtail. No matter
how good you are, you'll always be a little better on a full suspension bike. On the other hand, for
a given quality, the full suspension bike will cost at least 25% more and weigh at least 10% more.

Rooty uneven forest floors can be just as technically challenging as rocky hillsides.

Also, be aware when test riding a full suspension bike that your riding technique needs to be
different; they respond best if you stay in the saddle and spin, and most aren't good if you stand
up and mash. You usually have enough gears to stay down.

Quoted message said:

My first choice is the Dawes Edge Team (because my Dawes Horizon has proved faithful for years and
the nearest bike shop is strong on Dawes, too). Unfortunately, web searches turn up vitually no
rider comments on this machine.

<URL: bikemagic.com3284773366723Open ↗
64669556 >

Quoted message said:

Alternates include the Rockhopper Disc or the Sugar 4+ (neither HT nor disc but hey).

I wouldn't buy a full suss at this price point. You'll get a reasonable hardtail for this money, but
a full suspension bike at this price has almost certainly compromised somewhere important.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

[ This mind intentionally left blank ]

Vince posted ...

Quoted message said:

OK, I'm convinced. Some sort of FS and hydraulic disc brakes. It's back to the bike mags again...

Pedals are the next thing that worry me. I'm used to a simple toe strap on my tourer that I can
slip my foot in and out of without thinking about (I don't tighten the strap, just leave it
permanently on 'tight enough'😉. All the decent bikes now seem to have some sort of propietary
bolting system to permanently attach you to the bike. It worrys me slightly. Just how easy are
they to slip on and off on a busy road?

Vince.

I can't give a full reply as my dodgy knees preclude me using spd type pedals nowadays. When I _did_
use them they were far superior in general and road use. On the dirt, where a full sus comes into
it's own, I prefer flat pedals with 'spikey' cages to provide decent grip whatever shoes I wear, but
also the ability to drop out without notice in bale-off situations .. 😉

As a full sus bike is ridden mostly sat down and spinning, the lack of spd's isn't a big
hindrance. IMHO

I guess there's nothing to stop you, other than fashion perhaps, using the same untightened toe
strap pedal arrangement on any bike. Just 'cos other riders use a particular pedal or system doesn't
mean you have to use it too. Suck it and see what suits best. A good compromise may be a set of
spd's one side and flats the other .. 😉

--
Paul

(Vince) said:

OK, I'm convinced. Some sort of FS and hydraulic disc brakes. It's back to the bike mags again...

Pedals are the next thing that worry me. I'm used to a simple toe strap on my tourer that I can
slip my foot in and out of without thinking about (I don't tighten the strap, just leave it
permanently on 'tight enough'😉. All the decent bikes now seem to have some sort of propietary
bolting system to permanently attach you to the bike. It worrys me slightly. Just how easy are
they to slip on and off on a busy road?

SPDs (which is what you are talking about, although there are more exotic alternatives) have an
adjustment screw which allows you to set the tension or the spring. Generally they are _much_ easier
to get your feet out of than strapped toeclips, even if the straps are not tightened. You do need to
practice clipping and unclipping on the back lawn (or similar soft grassy place) until you've got
the technique, but it isn't difficult. If used off road, SPDs are somewhat prone to getting bunged
up with mud - but this makes it difficult to clip in, not to unclip. Some of the more expensive
alternatives (like Eggbeaters, or the beautiful but fearsomely expensive Speedplay Frogs) are
claimed to be less vulnerable to mud.

Personally I wouldn't ride on or off road without them. My partner uses pedals which are platform on
one side, SPD on the other. These are a good comromise while you're getting used to the idea.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗ Das Internet is nicht fuer
gefingerclicken und giffengrabben... Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das mausklicken
sichtseeren keepen das bandwit-spewin hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das
cursorblinken. -- quoted from the jargon file

Quoted message said:

I guess there's nothing to stop you, other than fashion perhaps, using the same untightened toe
strap pedal arrangement on any bike. Just 'cos other riders use a particular pedal or system
doesn't mean you have to use it too. Suck it and see what suits best. A good compromise may be a
set of spd's one side and flats the other .. 😉

Indeed, I used this setup on mountain bikes for years, and still have it on my old one; but it's
nothing like as good as SPDs

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗ Das Internet is nicht fuer
gefingerclicken und giffengrabben... Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das mausklicken
sichtseeren keepen das bandwit-spewin hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das
cursorblinken. -- quoted from the jargon file

"Vince" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

All the decent bikes now seem to have some sort of propietary bolting system to permanently attach
you to the bike. It worrys me slightly. Just how easy are they to slip on and off on a busy road?

Very easy, but practice before you use them on busy roads. When I first started off-roading I used
toe clips and it's safe to say clipless are far superior, quicker to enter and exit and you won't be
snagging an upside down toe clip on the flora before rotating the wretched thing to get your foot
in. Coming from toe-clips makes learning harder as you have to unlearn the straight out foot motion
at the same time as learning the ankle twist to exit the pedal but it's not that big a deal and can
provide some amusement to riding partners ;-)

--
Pete /Playtime.html"]http:[email hidden]/Playtime.html

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote...

Quoted message said:

(Vince) said:

Alternates include the Rockhopper Disc or the Sugar 4+ (neither HT nor disc but hey).

I wouldn't buy a full suss at this price point. You'll get a reasonable hardtail for this money,
but a full suspension bike at this price has almost certainly compromised somewhere important.

I know the £700-£1,000 range covers excellent hard-tails to bottom-end full-susses but just how
'compromised' are we talking about? (Sugar 4+ is around £1,000.) I'm not intending to go
extreme, just splash out a bit (a lot) of my savings on a bike that is better than I am and
enjoy my weekends.

I notice one mtb magazine this month reviewed a £1,600 Kona, describing it as a good 'entry-level'
machine. Seems crazy to me.

Vince.

(Vince) said:

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote...

Quoted message said:

(Vince) said:

Alternates include the Rockhopper Disc or the Sugar 4+ (neither HT nor disc but hey).

I wouldn't buy a full suss at this price point. You'll get a reasonable hardtail for this money,
but a full suspension bike at this price has almost certainly compromised somewhere important.

I know the £700-£1,000 range covers excellent hard-tails to bottom-end full-susses but just how
'compromised' are we talking about? (Sugar 4+ is around £1,000.) I'm not intending to go extreme,
just splash out a bit (a lot) of my savings on a bike that is better than I am and enjoy my
weekends.

OK, things to consider.

First is weight. A heavy bike is not a fun bike, particularly on uneven terrain. Aim for a bike
which, all up, is under 30 pounds (13.5 kilos) - unless you plan to do serious downhilling. Less
weight is obviously better but you pay for it. Next is suspension travel. About 4 inches each end
(100mm) seems to work well for many people cross country and I certainly don't feel any need for
more, but the current fashion is for 5 inches (120mm). The longer travel bikes cost a bit more and I
wouldn't think that was particularly good value for money, particularly for a first time buyer. Next
is durability of drive train. Don't accept no-name parts, expect Shimano or SRAM. A seven
(21) speed transmission may actually be more robust than a 9 (27) speed one. V brakes are fine, and
are actually lighter than disks (although not as good in very muddy conditions).

£1,000 is about where I think full suspension bikes which are worth buying start; Gary Fisher is a
reasnably well known name, although I've no personal experience.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

I shall continue to be an impossible person so long as those who are now possible remain
possible -- Michael Bakunin

"Vince" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I know the £700-£1,000 range covers excellent hard-tails to bottom-end full-susses but just how
'compromised' are we talking about? (Sugar 4+ is around £1,000.) I'm not intending to go extreme,
just splash out a bit (a lot) of my savings on a bike that is better than I am and enjoy my
weekends.

My LBS has a Marin East Peak reduced to £995, this has an excellent XC frame
<1> that is used on the Mount Vision with a list price of £2k+. Obviously there are component
compromises, like the fork, but nonetheless they are servicable and the frame is worthy of
component upgrades as and when one fancies or the otheres break/wear out. Another shop I visited
had one complete with hydraulic discs for the same price, if I was in the market for a full sus
I'd give more than passing consideration.
<2> I've seen the frame alone listed at £1095 in another shops catalogue, albeit with a better
rear shock.

--
Pete /Playtime.html"]http:[email hidden]/Playtime.html

Simon Brooke of said:

My partner uses pedals which are platform on one side, SPD on the other. These are a good comromise
while you're getting used to the idea.

This is the conventional suggestion for new SPD users, but I think there's a better way to start.

Using toe-clips on an off road bike I would get stuck in places where I just could not stop
pedalling long enough to find an opportunity to flip the pedal to put my foot in the clip, so I
ended up riding along with the clip dangling under the pedal. SPD one side conventional pedal the
other has exactly the same problem. What I need is pedals I can stomp on either side of to clip in,
eliminating the need to flip the pedal.

My choice is the sort of SPD that has a cage around the clip part, and clips on both sides of the
pedals. These have the advantage that you can still get power to the pedal even if you aren't
clipped in, and it is much easier to wiggle your foot on the pedal to achieve the clip than to flip
a pedal over. They aren't expensive, paid about £30 for my last pair. They are very handy too for
that 5 minute trip down the road when finding SPD shoes is too much bother. I find them OK to ride
without clips for up to half an hour.
--
Men get laid, but women get screwed. Quentin Crisp
Steph Peters delete invalid from [email hidden]
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